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MiniaAr

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I have a question about Norge missions , are they the same as Sweden and Danmark ? Because it's a bit boring to have the standard missions
No missions that I know of. Unfortunately Norway doesn't have a lot of flavour, as Carmilla pointed out. Actually, this is the country that doesn't see any change by becoming Scandinavia when Sweden might lose a lot (military reform events) and Denmark some flavour events. Actually Gotland doesn't have anything except NI as of now, but really? :p
 

Carmilla

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No missions that I know of. Unfortunately Norway doesn't have a lot of flavour, as Carmilla pointed out. Actually, this is the country that doesn't see any change by becoming Scandinavia when Sweden might lose a lot (military reform events) and Denmark some flavour events. Actually Gotland doesn't have anything except NI as of now, but really? :p
So Gotland is about on par with Norway then? :p

I'm not surprised that Norway has basically received zero attention. This was after all the union era where we spent all our time being under danish thumbs(later swedish). It's probably one of the most hated periods in norwegian culture. Rather funny considering our attitude towards danes these days carry no hints of resentment(outside of the usual badly behaved crowd). So any flavour given to us would basically have to be taken either from the pre-union and post-union eras or basically be completely invented with perhaps a few being based on real events. So I don't envy the devs no matter how much I'd want Norway to receive a lot of attention.

Personally I'd accept even invented flavour since it'd be better than nothing... but thats just me. :)
 

maquis196

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Yeah speaking of flavour, my first 60 odd hours in this game was all on Norway, then I played England (cos you know, being English) and I was constantly "wth is this popup" The only event I can recall as Norway is the upgraded fort in Finnmark!

So yeah, its almost surreal playing other nations and seeing all the events they get! Also, first thing I do as Norway is disable the notification to become Scandinavia. Crap colour, crap flag! I prefer seeing "Norway" everywhere!
 

Carmilla

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Aye I notice the same thing when I play as the roman empire. It's a torrent of popups compared to what Norway normally gets and it's so unusual! As for forming Scandinavia, I do enjoy doing it, but yeah the flag is pretty crappy. The norwegian one is much better, but thats me being biased. :p
 

Golradaer

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I've been working on Norwegian Wood for the past week and have tried many different approaches to the first 30-50 years. This is Ironman Hard/AI bonuses, so especially for this achievement I need a good early game or I won't be able to make progress quickly enough (I had one attempt stalemate once Muscovy started allying major European powers like England in the early 1500's).

Game Start

Joining the HRE is a great idea, which means I'll need +200 relations with Austria, so I'll want the +dip rep advisor to gain an alliance (+100 improve+guarantee+dip rep advisor is enough) -- I restart if one isn't available.

Day 1 ally Sweden and get Hansa to support independence. Declare independence on day 4 or 5, and I want to have a first king without horrible stats and ideally at least 2 adm and 2 mil. If I have this, I insult the Papal State on day 5 with my second diplomat so I can declare Restraint of Appeals. I'll be converting to Protestant later anyway, so for the first 50 years I'd prefer to have the prestige and minus unrest bonuses rather than a minor trickle of papal influence. Also, if you happen to get a Theologian at some point (and have the proper monarch stats) you can use Dissolution of the Monasteries for extra tax income. Following this, you'll be at war, so use your diplomats to improving relations with Austria and Poland. One minor thing, I switch my merchants to be collecting in both the North Sea and Lubeck at the start: the North Sea trade will predominantly flow to Lubeck even without your steering, so it's better to make extra money until you can dominate Lubeck sufficiently to make it worth steering it all there.

Independence War

My favorite approach is joining the HRE and reducing Denmark's provinces such that it can be vassalized in the next war. To join the HRE while still reducing Denmark's provinces enough to vassalize them in the next war, I take Fyn for myself, give Skane+Halland+Blekinge to the Hansa (be sure to siege these yourself before the Swedish do, so you can transfer ownership to the Hansa before you make peace), and cancel their vassalage of Holstein. The Hansa are a useful ally in the critical early game, and you can easily turn on them once Denmark is your vassal to regain the three Danish provinces and take Lubeck for yourself.

Next steps

When the war is over, core Fyn and ally+marry+guarantee+mil access Austria to join the HRE.

Muscovy and Sweden are your major problems in the early game. I think it's absolutely necessary to stop Muscovy's expansion by 1500 which is why I go for Austria and Poland+Lithuania as my two major allies. Even with them, fighting Muscovy+Sweden is a pain and it can be difficult to pull off much more than a white peace depending on how effectively your allies concentrate and kill enemy armies. I tried various approaches to attacking Novgorod to limit the amount Muscovy can take from them, but it's really the Muscovy+Sweden alliance that is the major problem. In my current run, which has been the most successful by far (early 1500's currently), I let Muscovy and Sweden 1/3 of Novgorod each without jumping in, and because they then had a land border Muscovy broke the alliance immediately. This fixed my problems because Muscovy even offered to ally me (I improved relations also) and helped me to focus on eating Sweden and vassalizing Denmark. Austria and Poland+Lithuania generally won't join offensive wars against Sweden due to distance and "attitude toward country" modifiers, so it's useful to have more help.

In the first war with Sweden I took four provinces in the west: Vastergotland for the port, Dalaskogen (copper mine), Lappland, and Halsingland. I also took Aland, Finland, Osterbotten, and Nyland to release as Finland. Immediately after, Hansa broke the alliance and went hostile, so I fed back the Danish provinces I gave them at the start (I vassalized Denmark as soon as the first truce ended, which was before the Swedish war), I took Lubeck, and I released Hamburg.

Then, around 1490 I had the opportunity to declare war on Muscovy and bring in both Austria and Poland+Lithuania, while they had no useful allies (Muscovy broke its alliance with me after my second war with Sweden in which I regained all of the Finnish cores+some they took from Novgorod, and another Swedish province). I walked over to Siberia with some merc infantry and stole their 80% colony to cut off eastern expansion, released Perm, and took 4 Novgorod cores to release (Muscovy had eaten Novgorod entirely by this point). I'm fighting my second Muscovy war now, around 1512, and it won't be long before they're effectively eliminated.

I also turned Finland into a march, which seems fantastic given their national ideas. I've been feeding them provinces in Estonia/Latvia (same culture group for them) and will probably keep it a march until I've dismantled Poland+Lithuania.

Idea Groups

I went Quantity, Exploration, Expansion. The order is just how it worked out due to monarch stats and because you'll be spending a fair number of dip points during peace negotiations and annexing Denmark. I thought about other military options, but I really think Quantity is best for Norway's position in the early game. Offensive's bonuses don't really kick in until you finish the idea group which is too late for the critical early wars against Sweden and Muscovy, Defensive helps early on but I wanted something that would boost my navy and give me manpower because even mixing in merc infantry isn't enough with the frequent wars (not to mention the +50% force limit allows me to maintain a decent sized army for once). Having 4 colonists is going to be very useful for this achievement I think; I've already bstarted colonizing Canada, so far uncontested (England has all of Ireland and Scotland as vassals but hasn't annexed them yet). My fleet limit is also +50% due to Quantity+Exploration; I'll probably go Maritime as my next diplomacy idea unless I pick up influence -- depends on how much more expansion through vassals I plan on doing.

England/Scotland/Ireland

You'll typically fight Scotland in early wars because they almost always ally Sweden, but I've found that taking provinces in this area just isn't worth it. You can't afford to piss off England while you're trying to deal with Sweden and Muscovy because it's impossible to match their fleet and you absolutely need your trade ships working in Lubeck to keep your income flowing. Also, even if it owns Ireland+Scotland, England will only have about half of the North Sea provincial trade value (perhaps less if you focus on building markets) and I've had no issue keeping nearly all of it flowing to Lubeck due to merchants from the northern German minors. Because I flipped to Protestant, I might even end up allying England, but there's really not much point in fighting them unless you plan to conquer the entire isles, and that's only possible much later when your force limits allow you to match them (due to their heavy ships, nobody will be able to land troops to help you fight unless you can beat their navy, and again not until mid-game is that possible).
 

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If you are going to play a colonial/merchant game as Norway, why not keep the union together? Help Denmark keep Sweden in line too. Then you don't have to worry about constant warfare in your front yard while you do your thing in America.
 

TheMeInTeam

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If you are going to play a colonial/merchant game as Norway, why not keep the union together? Help Denmark keep Sweden in line too. Then you don't have to worry about constant warfare in your front yard while you do your thing in America.

It's more efficient to colonize while owning their land and more. You get good advisors faster and have a stronger power base.

Personally I'd accept even invented flavour since it'd be better than nothing... but thats just me.

Invented flavor has a nasty habit of making nations worse.
 

Carmilla

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It's more efficient to colonize while owning their land and more. You get good advisors faster and have a stronger power base.



Invented flavor has a nasty habit of making nations worse.
In Norway's case thats pretty much the only flavour we could hope for given our throne was in the hands of a dane for the entirety of EUIV and thus there are no periods where Denmark wasn't involved.
 

maquis196

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@Golradaer - Due to the tech advantage early on, wouldn't it be worth fully vassalising Scotland early doors? With you in the HRE, England would be much less likely to start on you due to it being scared over Austrias FL + yours, and during peace you can load up Scotland to crush England? Especially after you've dealt with Muscovy?

Finland would make a great march I agree (in theory Sweden would make the best but Id rather have their lands since they'd be accepted culture).
 

maquis196

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Was it really distinct enough to be its own culture at this point? If it was then it should be around. *nods*

Considering a lot of the game has buffs/nerfs to countries based on "if it happened at any point during the games span then that country has it", I'd argue yes! I won't expect to see it though, just a nice thing to have (esp with Icelandic ideas, hhhmmmmmm).

Anyhoo, least Norway threads stay nice and civil, no nationalism around like most other threads (just come from that big Muscovy thread - wow). All this take of Norway makes me wanna play eu4, once more onto the breach!
 

Golradaer

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@Golradaer - Due to the tech advantage early on, wouldn't it be worth fully vassalising Scotland early doors? With you in the HRE, England would be much less likely to start on you due to it being scared over Austrias FL + yours, and during peace you can load up Scotland to crush England? Especially after you've dealt with Muscovy?

Finland would make a great march I agree (in theory Sweden would make the best but Id rather have their lands since they'd be accepted culture).

England probably wouldn't declare a war independently, but your conquests in Sweden and Denmark will cause enough AE to form a coalition of anyone who already hates you plus possibly some northern German minors (especially because returning cores to vassals gives AE as well). In one of my games, once I took Scotland, England went hostile and joined a coalition along with Sweden and Muscovy. I'm fairly sure this is unavoidable because all three will probably have -200 relations already due to the "desires provinces" modifier.

In theory, I really like the idea of dominating the North Sea node by taking Scotland+Ireland, but the wars in the east are already such a careful balance that throwing England into the mix can royally screw you. If you find a way to fight England 1v1 and can manage to field an army equal in size to theirs through your own forces+Scotland (maybe as a march), this could possibly work, but then you'd be playing passive/defensive in the east for some period of time.
 

Carmilla

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Considering a lot of the game has buffs/nerfs to countries based on "if it happened at any point during the games span then that country has it", I'd argue yes! I won't expect to see it though, just a nice thing to have (esp with Icelandic ideas, hhhmmmmmm).

Anyhoo, least Norway threads stay nice and civil, no nationalism around like most other threads (just come from that big Muscovy thread - wow). All this take of Norway makes me wanna play eu4, once more onto the breach!
Thats probably because most people who go into Norway threads are either not norwegian or they follow the stereotype we have for thinking we're not really worthy enough or the likes(I forgot exactly how it went). We're a bit weird when it comes to nationalism I guess. :p
 

Dr. B

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England probably wouldn't declare a war independently, but your conquests in Sweden and Denmark will cause enough AE to form a coalition of anyone who already hates you plus possibly some northern German minors (especially because returning cores to vassals gives AE as well). In one of my games, once I took Scotland, England went hostile and joined a coalition along with Sweden and Muscovy. I'm fairly sure this is unavoidable because all three will probably have -200 relations already due to the "desires provinces" modifier.

In theory, I really like the idea of dominating the North Sea node by taking Scotland+Ireland, but the wars in the east are already such a careful balance that throwing England into the mix can royally screw you. If you find a way to fight England 1v1 and can manage to field an army equal in size to theirs through your own forces+Scotland (maybe as a march), this could possibly work, but then you'd be playing passive/defensive in the east for some period of time.

I have also tried to take Scotland early on. In fact you can in the first war after independence because Sweden likes to ally them. It is not a good idea, because England will as you say hate your guts for it, and tell you so with their fleet of heavy ships.

I recommend waiting with Scotland and other british possessions until you have cleaned up in Scandinavia and have a navy (and army reserve) strong enough to deal with England. Allying France is heavily recommended, I like to ally Poland-Lithuania and France to help against Muscovy and England.

Question:
It seems best to give more autonomy to conquered provinces in Sweden and Denmark at first, to avoid the rebels. Will it be a good idea to reduce autonomy later on after nationalism is gone, or let it naturally degrade? First-hand advice is helpful.
 

maquis196

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Question:
It seems best to give more autonomy to conquered provinces in Sweden and Denmark at first, to avoid the rebels. Will it be a good idea to reduce autonomy later on after nationalism is gone, or let it naturally degrade? First-hand advice is helpful.

Once nationalism is gone, plus the fact Danish and Swedish are accepted cultures, you can do both. The hit is easily absorbed if you have a number of unrest modifiers working for you. It depends on how much time you plan to spend at peace. If you think it will take something like 75yrs of peace to get those to 0%... WE seems to hurt more in 1.8 as well, so that could backfire a bit.

I've just tried a HRE entry start, I see what people mean about Sweden + Muscovy allying, thats a new one for me. Got Austria to ally with me whilst I was peace by building another 5 infantry, so no need for advisor.
 

Gaamel

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Thats probably because most people who go into Norway threads are either not norwegian or they follow the stereotype we have for thinking we're not really worthy enough or the likes(I forgot exactly how it went). We're a bit weird when it comes to nationalism I guess. :p
It may be because the Norwegian fanboys are already busy looting Europe in CK2, pretending Stamford Bridge never happened :sad:
Question:
It seems best to give more autonomy to conquered provinces in Sweden and Denmark at first, to avoid the rebels. Will it be a good idea to reduce autonomy later on after nationalism is gone, or let it naturally degrade? First-hand advice is helpful.
From what I can tell, with most countries (especially with norway), sparing manpower early game is much more important than earning 5 ducats a year instead of 4 in recently conquered provinces. Low manpower also triggers very funny events like peasant war. You don't have to raise autonomy in all provinces though, the copper province is valuable enough to suffer some rebels. Watch closely the "rebel factions" tab, 95% chance is the moment you should do something :cool:
 

maquis196

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If you take Fyn, how do you join the HRE? Fyn doesn't border any of your provinces, even by sea. Wouldn't you have to take Myddjtland instead?

Originally, you would take fyn, move your capital there and then join the HRE. I'm not sure if the mechanics changed since then because that was the way to do it. Now you can take either mainland Danish provinces and from there attach your capital across the channel. I'm trying to work out a perfect start where I can join HRE and stomp Sweden immediately. Muscovy + Sweden is a nasty combo early on and damn it, I want Norwegian wood! (oi oi)
 

Owl Raider

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Norway's NIs are pretty weird because as a colonizer you generally want to colonize ASAP and have as many colonists possible, which means going with Exploration ideas, which in turn along with Exploration's range bonus makes Call of Our Forefathers utterly useless. On the other hand if you rely on Call of Our Forefathers to replace Exploration ideas than you're missing out on 3 colonists as well as the great CB in the New World, both of which are amazing even if you don't use anything else from them. Most people will get Exploration ideas regardless and just waste 1 of their NIs, though personally I think this is a mistake. Norway will never be the fastest nor strongest colonizer out there, so the AI is bound to have some colonies up before you can do anything about it. Thus in my opinion there's no need to rush it like there's no tomorrow and spam a ton of colonists. Instead I think it's better to colonize with your own NIs, which means 12 total ideas to get there, and than cherry pick the best provinces in the relevant trade nodes first, preferably without overloading a single region to not form a colonial nation yet since you'll need all the money you can get your hands on thanks to your poor starting territories. Sure, you won't be blocking AI colonization, but that simply allows you to take advantage of your naval based ideas(especially the 20% naval morale) and isolated position to beat up the major colonizers in the New World and take over their colonies from them. If you're quick enough you can do it before the AI forms its first colonial nation(usually Castile's, sometimes Portugal's) which in turn will let you block the AI from spamming colonial nations in the New World as long as you keep on fighting the colonizers and steal their colonies.

Your isolated position and hopefully naval supremacy means that you simply don't care about their massive land armies as they'll never reach Norway, so just beat them at sea and in the New World and blockade their home territories for extra war score and war exhaustion to get all your war goals(as they're dirt cheap being overseas colonies) and also all of their money/cancelling of alliances if you so choose. Once you start blocking the AI colonizers you will eventually get some colonial nations as the territories you colonized combined with those you stole will inevitably be more than 5 in various regions which in turn will spawn colonial nations. For this method to work you need to make sure Norway itself is safe, the best way to do that is to join the HRE as mentioned above, which is very easy and very effective, the tech boost and lower revolt risk are obviously very nice too but the main bonus is having Austria to defend you against Sweden and whoever else outside the empire will try to conquer your lands. Note that an alliance with Austria is not recommended as you don't want them to drag you into their pointless wars and because they won't be able to help you much against Castile, Portugal, England and France as they're pathetically weak without their allies and if they become war leader the chances are they won't give you what you want anyway. Also other than France Austria won't be able to reach the other 3 anyway without passing through France, and France will never allow Austria military access so that's out of the question. So just for defensive purposes being in the HRE is enough as Austria will almost always accept the imperial call to arms to protect you. This in turn lets you have other allies like France or Muscovy, which are significantly stronger than Austria and unless you stop being the war leader in your defensive wars than Austria will join your side regardless if your other allies, bringing the might of France/Muscovy along with Austria on whoever decided to foolishly attack you.

In the end despite having a seemingly terrible start and seemingly contradictory NIs, Norway is actually terribly easy to play once you overcome your initial monetary issues thanks to your poor starting realm. In Art of War playing Norway is more satisfying than ever before as you can now vassalize Sweden for yourself and march them to enjoy a powerful ally with the 2nd most OP militaristic NIs(second only to Prussia) as your only neighbor and basically not worry about mainland Europe at all after that. Instead you can do whatever you want, be it the New World, going around Africa and into Asia, reincarnating the Viking invasion of England, or whatever. In fact going after England is a very powerful option as you'll want to keep up with the English navy anyway to prevent them from forming their own colonial nations, so might as well use your navy to also blockade them and beat them up in their home islands. Also your home node: the North Sea, flows into either Lubeck or London, Lubeck is a hassle to control as it's occupied by Denmark and various HRE minors, London on the other hand is only controlled by England and the Irish minors, so taking all of England and Ireland secures the London trade node for you and having Scotland also secures the North Sea node, leaving your Light Ships to gain trade power in the New World and wherever else you expanded instead of your European nodes and become extremely rich.