Strat Bombers and lvl 1 Airfields

[unmerged(13008)]

Sorry if I didn´t manage to finde anything on this, that has been written before. Somehow search function ist disabled.

I just came to thinking whether it should be possible to land/start rather clumsy and big plane types from even the smallest airstrip.

In HOI II terms we had Lvl 1 - 10 Airbases.
Now mabye we could say that:

1-3 allows only Divebombers/Fighters to be operate
4-6 allows Tactical Bombers, Naval Bombers and Transports
7-10 then finally allows Strategic Bombers to be based.

Numbers are just to underline what I mean. Can be changed at anytime. It´s just that I feel that it is rather odd, to allow them all to be used without any distinction between size, weight, length needed to take off or land etc.

 

[ok2useLane]

Interesting concept. It would be more accurate.

 

[WWIINERD]

I like it.

 

[unmerged(38925)]

I've also had a lot of issue with this. The airfield levels just don't make a lot of sense and I would agree that a limitation of how many and what types of divisions you can even base on that province should be implemented. The speed of org regain isn't a very good system at all. It just seems odd to station 50 strategic bomber divisions on one small island with a level 1 airfield so you can bomb japan down to nothing from the beginning of the game or whatever.

Not only would I like to see a system like the one outlined in the first post but I'd also recommend a system in which having that airfield bombed below the threshold means that the type of aircraft and even the number of divisions in the air is limited until the facility is rebuilt. Only rebase command should be immune from this. There's really no real problems with using forward airfields in HOI2 other than the possibility of being over-run by ground troops. That's easily solved by rebasing at the last second.

Realistically, forward airbases would be heavily suppressed and likely unable to carry out operations in the face of significant enemy air power. This is part of why long range airplanes and the ability to base them in the secure rear areas were vital.

Of course to accommodate this airbases should be much quicker to build. I never did really understand why it took such an extremely long time to build up an airbase for practically no gain.

P.S. To point out the speed at which air strips were built, the 1.8km long air strip on Espiritu Santo was constructed in 20 days from dense jungle.

 

[unmerged(134661)]

Sorry if I didn´t manage to finde anything on this, that has been written before. Somehow search function ist disabled.

I just came to thinking whether it should be possible to land/start rather clumsy and big plane types from even the smallest airstrip.

In HOI II terms we had Lvl 1 - 10 Airbases.
Now mabye we could say that:

1-3 allows only Divebombers/Fighters to be operate
4-6 allows Tactical Bombers, Naval Bombers and Transports
7-10 then finally allows Strategic Bombers to be based.

Numbers are just to underline what I mean. Can be changed at anytime. It´s just that I feel that it is rather odd, to allow them all to be used without any distinction between size, weight, length needed to take off or land etc.

Would be an improvement. I also think that the airfield attacking can help here.

With additional levels of 'airfield' the ability to impact that airfield is reduced. If you have a level 1 airfield (a strip on the ground), hitting planes on the ground is easier and with each wing on that airfield, it gets easier.

Thus, a level 10 airfield would:
1) allow better planes to be stationed
2) limit the interference from airfield attacks of the enemy
3) reduce the likelihood of enemies from bombing planes on the ground simulating the bottleneck of a single runway for 20 wings of aircraft to scramble

This means that the cost of an airfield includes local AA defenses, bunkers, hangers, etc.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[dublish]

You make it sound as if B-17s couldn't take off/land in fields.

 

[unmerged(38925)]

You make it sound as if B-17s couldn't take off/land in fields.

Of course they could. But only once.

 

[unmerged(13008)]

You make it sound as if B-17s couldn't take off/land in fields.

Never used any modell names. Btw, they are just historical flavour in the game, never meant to be accurate data.
But if you can describe my point with models, too:
Certainly a WW I Biplane needed less of an runway then a B-29 Superfortress, no?

 

[Black Lotus]

I think this is a good idea overall in the general context. Yes, I'm sure you can find evidence of several tactical/strategic bombers taking off from fields or small runways, but I highly doubt in significant numbers. This being a grand strategy game those rare instances should be left aside.

 

[unmerged(134661)]

I think that too often, people look at the requirements of an aircraft to land and take off as the sole requirement of an air operation.

You need tons of crew quarters for both the pilots and the ground crews. You need space and equipment to maintain those aircraft.
You need space and equipment to rearm/refuel those aircraft.
You need defensive facilities like bunkers, AA, hangers, etc. to protect the whole facility.

What is really missing in HoI2 was that aircrafts were almost a boolean variable. A province had them or it did not.

I think that my suggestion that higher level airfields mean better reinforcement of the current airfield (attacking a large airfield is dangerous and requires large air wings), more resistance to planes being hit on the ground (with diminishing protection on overloaded airfields), restriction on larger aircraft and faster reinforcement all help to properly colour why big airfields like Truk were critical.

 

[Wraith11B]

I think this is a good idea overall in the general context. Yes, I'm sure you can find evidence of several tactical/strategic bombers taking off from fields or small runways, but I highly doubt in significant numbers. This being a grand strategy game those rare instances should be left aside.

Obviously, you've never watched "Memphis Belle"?

Most B-17/B-24 airfields were just that: fields. Most aircraft of the day had a rough-field capability that aircraft today lack (because of the danger of FOD).

 

[unmerged(38925)]

I'm very sure Dublish was being sarcastic.

 

[wheels0132]

You make it sound as if B-17s couldn't take off/land in fields.

The question isn't whether or not these planes could land or take off on a rough field, but rather can they conduct sustained combat operations from said field. The level of the airfield in game simulates the infrastructure present to maintain a large number of aircraft: barracks, messhalls, supply depots, maintenence hangers, fuel dumps, etc.

In HOI, a level 10 airfield would be maxed out in terms of logistical support whereas a level 1 airfield might only have a hanger or two and a control tower. This is why planes regain org/manpower quicker at the higher level airfields.

I really like the idea that Strat bombers require a larger airfields, I think this is an excellent concept. Having said that, I would prefer that the length of time it takes to build an airfield from a level 1 to a level 10 be reduced. Does anyone know how long this takes in game? Probably a couple of years--way too long in my opinion.

 

[Chief Savage Ma]

The question isn't whether or not these planes could land or take off on a rough field, but rather can they conduct sustained combat operations from said field. The level of the airfield in game simulates the infrastructure present to maintain a large number of aircraft: barracks, messhalls, supply depots, maintenence hangers, fuel dumps, etc.

In HOI, a level 10 airfield would be maxed out in terms of logistical support whereas a level 1 airfield might only have a hanger or two and a control tower. This is why planes regain org/manpower quicker at the higher level airfields.

I really like the idea that Strat bombers require a larger airfields, I think this is an excellent concept. Having said that, I would prefer that the length of time it takes to build an airfield from a level 1 to a level 10 be reduced. Does anyone know how long this takes in game? Probably a couple of years--way too long in my opinion.

It doesn't take that long in HoI2. You just order 10 airbases and deploy them all at once.

 

[33Vortex]

The concept is great. A lvl 1 airstrip would be a grass strip, personnel would live in tents and quarters very similar to a army field camp. This is the type of airstrip that the Luftwaffe used, by necessity, on the east front. The strain on personnel on the ground as well as air crew would be severe, especially so in extreme weather conditions such as temperatures below freezing. Logistics and maintenance is a nightmare in these conditions.

So... a lvl 1 airfield would have limited use, for obvious reasons. You can not arm a bomber wing with bombs if the roads do not support the weight of the ordnance being moved, very simple.

The higher level airfield the better facilities for logistics and maintenance. AA defenses could have a separate value, or it could be tied to the airfield lvl.

It is very important that the size of the airfields come into play, as it has a direct impact on deployment, combat duty endurance and combat effectiveness of all types of aircraft.

 

[wheels0132]

Ahh, thanks Chief.

I forgot that with certain province upgrades you can just plop them down wherever you like. Do they still have to be connected to your mainland?

Examples:
UK building airfields in India
US building airfields in Hawaii

 

[Panzerschiffe]

Of course to accommodate this airbases should be much quicker to build. I never did really understand why it took such an extremely long time to build up an airbase for practically no gain.

P.S. To point out the speed at which air strips were built, the 1.8km long air strip on Espiritu Santo was constructed in 20 days from dense jungle.

I always thought this was strange as well even with those airbase construction modifiers when researching techs.

Building an airbase wasn't a long process. It would allow you to build forward airbases and have your INT closer to the front.

Perhaps if airbases don't take enough time to build, the AI might go crazy and put them everywhere. In HOI2, the AI did produce quite a few strategic airbases i noticed. It was a good idea.

But then if airbases take shorter to build and you can build them in parallel and then deploy all 10 of them on one province, then i'd say that's rather unrealistic.

 

[unmerged(122939)]

Also every level should have their own cost, is not the same to build a tower and clear a grass runway, than a cement runway, with several hangars, depots, etc. And you should be able to build every level from scratch, it seems to me weird that you have to start with a grass runway (lvl1), go through the entire middle options to finally get a lvl10 airbase, you should be able to build directly a lvl10, but obviously at a significantly higher cost in time and IC than the lvl1.

 

[dsteve3]

I really hope some of these ideas are implemented. Personnally, I just want to be able to bring up my CAS to the front quickly. I found it really annoying how they became useless after the war in Europe was done for the Axis.

In HoI2, the front tended to move faster than the recovery-rate of the captured air fields. In Northern Asia, the provinces are bigger than the attack range of the CAS. Same for islands. When invading Soviet Union, the last thing you want is 100 TC per lvl airbase sitting in the pool waiting for a good place to drop. If the CAS has a future in this series, we either need innate level 1 airbases in every province or the ability to build small ones very quickly.

 

[Pal]

I always thought that in HoI the "level" of the airfield represented the density of single airfields in the province? In Germany at least, each "Gruppe" (4 squads = ca. 60 planes = ca. 1/2 HoI squadron) had its own airbase. So I thought the more airfields a province had, the more single units could be maintained effectively. Of course on islands like Truk a lvl 10 airbase might represent one single base with loads of buildings, but on the vastness of Russia I'd expect to see several smaller bases concentrated near strategic towns, which could be added up to a "level" in HoI...