Straitscode?

[doktarr]

Should we implement more straits now that the code is there? Some candidates that come to mind:

Kaffa/Kerch - this is a no-brainer, right?

Smyrna/Thrace - also seems like a no-brainer.

Shikoku/Kansai - also a no-brainer.

Veneto/Istria - There was talk of moving Venice to Mantua, since there should really be no land connection between Venice proper and Istria. This would be another wat to finesse that connection. But it would look a little ridiculous on the map.

Tangiers/Gibraltar - It makes sense to me. This would help Portugal or Spain hold Tangiers, and it would allow Granada to draw manpower from north africa if they succeed in making alternate history.

Hormouz/Al Kharam - I have no idea how common this crossing was, but it is a strait.

Surabaja/Bali - no idea how realistic this is.

Ezochi/Toshuku - Maybe a stretch to call this a strait, but it will bind it closer to the rest of Japan.

Kyushu/Kansai - I'm not sure how you'd implement this one, since there's multiple bodies of water involved. But it's certainly more realistic than a land connection.

Messina/Apullia and Sardinia/Corsica - probably can't be implemented, and probably shouldn't.

 

[Sikker]

Smyrna-Thrace already is a strait, and I am pretty sure Kaffa-Kerch is too.

Veneto-Istria ... eerrr what? I am not sure I follow you here ... how will you make a strait there?

Tangier-Gibraltar, I disagree ... it is too far in my opinion (but certainly not by much), and also I feel that it should be harder to reach Africa for Spain than just a strait crossing

I agree that Sardinia-Corsica is not a good idea, but Messina-Apulia already is a strait and it works fine.

The rest I don't know of or I don't have an opinion on them ...

 

[Zander]

I'd disagree with Tangiers-Gibraltar, and certainly with Hormuz-Al Kharam. Kyushu-Kansai seems unnecessary, if it's even codable at all, and I'm skeptical of Surabaja-Bali.

Kaffa-Kerch, Smyrna-Thrace, Shikoku-Kansai, and Ezochi-Toshoku all look good. I agree that Veneto-Istria makes some sense as well, despite the map.

 

[Mad King James]

I can't say I agree with Ezochi. The straight there wasn't easily crossable, and Ezochi should be very VERY isolated from Japan. It wasn't even really colonized until the 19th century and is still quite heavily populated with Ainu.

However Tangiers to Gibraltar shouldn't be tossed out quite yet, since you can swim the channel. Berber colonists rafted across and sometimes even just floated across on a piece of wood when the Caliphate conquered the place in the 8th century.

 

[doktarr]

I can't say I agree with Ezochi. The straight there wasn't easily crossable, and Ezochi should be very VERY isolated from Japan. It wasn't even really colonized until the 19th century and is still quite heavily populated with Ainu.

Yep, that makes sense. I was just tossing out every possible strait I could think of. Although I forgot to mention Hainan-Guangdong... how about that one?

However Tangiers to Gibraltar shouldn't be tossed out quite yet, since you can swim the channel. Berber colonists rafted across and sometimes even just floated across on a piece of wood when the Caliphate conquered the place in the 8th century.

Moreover, there's not much evidence that the strait served as a barrier to conquest or rule - The Almohads governed Spain from Morocco for centuries, and Portugal had no trouble holding onto Tangiers once the tide had turned. The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that they should be connected.

Aside: if Messina-Apulia works, then Kansai-Kyushu is probably codeable too. And if it is, it should definitely be done - someone who contols both adjacent seazones would definitely be able to prevent armies from moving across.

 

[Stonewall]

I wonder what would happen if we made Venice a virtual island, i e, the provinces surrounding Venice were all in the straights file, meaning that as long as the Venetian fleet controlled the sea zone, Venice could not be invaded. I recall lots of people trying to figure out how best to simulate the Venetian lagoons and swamps, and this seems like it might be a doable way to circumvent that and make Venice more defensible without giving it a large fortress to start with.

 

[Garbon]

Moreover, there's not much evidence that the strait served as a barrier to conquest or rule - The Almohads governed Spain from Morocco for centuries, and Portugal had no trouble holding onto Tangiers once the tide had turned. The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that they should be connected.

However, I think that we should think of this in terms of gameplay. I don't see that it would be necessarily beneficial to allow armies to cross from Gibraltar to Morocco so easily. I mean wouldn't this logically cause more conflicts between Spain and Morocco, something that we don't really need? I guess I just wonder how this would be an improvement...?

 

[Nikolai II]

Antalya - Rhodes , then maybe the Ottomans can take them out someday...

 

[doktarr]

However, I think that we should think of this in terms of gameplay. I don't see that it would be necessarily beneficial to allow armies to cross from Gibraltar to Morocco so easily. I mean wouldn't this logically cause more conflicts between Spain and Morocco, something that we don't really need?

Well, if Portugal and Spian hold Tangiers like they historically do, it won't change anything. By far the most likely scenario is Spain or Portugal controlling the strait, so this is basically a one-way road for troops from Iberia to Tangiers. Given that situation, the possible scenarios are:

1) Spain or Portugal gets Tangiers.

Effect of the straitscode change - none, except perhaps things are a little more stable then usual, since rebellions can get put down more easily.

2) Morocco holds on to Tangiers

Effect of the straitscode change - more conflict between Spain and Morocco, until Tangiers falls to Spain. The worst-case scenario would be lots of wars without Tangiers changing hands.

3) England or another major european naval power gets Tangiers

Effect of the straitscode change - if England can actually control the sea, then they could use Tangiers to launch an invasion of Iberia. But truthfully, it would be easier for England to just land troops in northern Iberia. It's not like England is going to be building large armies inTangiers.

4) Something massively ahistorical happens in Iberia or northern Africa

Effect of the straitscode change - well, it depends on what happens. But the most obvious scenarios would be Granada surviving and thriving, or the Ottomans building a dominant fleet and pushing their empire all the way to Tangiers. But in either of these cases, I think having troops be able to move freely across the strait (and in the case of Granada, allowing them to draw overland income and manpower from northern Africa) is perfectly realistic.

I guess I just wonder how this would be an improvement...?

Well, most of the benefits are in alternative history, but I don't see any drawback in regular history. (Playtesting will bear this out one way or the other, I suppose.) And fundamentally, I think it's realistic.

 

[unmerged(9404)]

Another possible scenario fo a gibraltar-tangiers strait si that the north african alliance comes to rescue Granada more effectively.

 

[Garbon]

Actually, unless were counting the Tangiers province as Ceuta, Tangiers didn't fall to Portugal until the 1470's, so its actually inaccurate for Portugal to gain control of Tangiers so early on in the GC as it is (a situation that is remedied by axing that early war, and forcing one closer to the correct date).

Spain should not be fighting Morocco in wars for any of its provinces. While its true that Spain didn't capture cities along the Moroccan coast, there is no way to represent this in game, so Morocco would just end up loosing whole provinces, which is definitely not accurate.

 

[unmerged(16501)]

i dont get it; what constitutes a straight? the two zones that i am intensely familiar with are jylland/sjælland and sjælland/skåne. to give you an indication of the distances there, sjælland/jylland was not bridged until sometime in the 1990'ies and sjælland skåne was bridged ~ year 2000 and is still the second longest bridge in the world.

now i dont know about the length of gibrareltar. but I do know that neanderthals were supposidly able to cross the straight in simple boats and that an (artificial) underground/underwater tunnel running all the way through way recently discovered.

 

[Mad King James]

A 'strait' in EU2 is any body of water that doesn't require a navy to get you across. Any body of water where you can move an army across via raft or in simple boats.

 

[unmerged(16501)]

it that case it seems completely silly that there is now a straight between sjælland and skåne. sjælland/jylland is debatable though.

i am not a big fan of a straight between gibrareltar/tangiers for the simple reason that europe and africa will be so easily connected. you should not be able to move large armies back and fourth between the continents without a navy. this especially goes for spain.


on another note: any chance of seeing code to completelu block the passage of hostile navies if you control gibrareltar/tangiers or sjælland/skåne?

 

[Nikolai II]

on another note: any chance of seeing code to completelu block the passage of hostile navies if you control gibrareltar/tangiers or sjælland/skåne?

No such artillery in the game - but passage through Marmara to the black sea could be stopped, but at higher TLs .. and having a 'navy-block-code' that is TL dependant is probably unlikely?

Any comments to my Antalaya-Rhodes connection?

 

[Sikker]

No such artillery in the game - but passage through Marmara to the black sea could be stopped, but at higher TLs .. and having a 'navy-block-code' that is TL dependant is probably unlikely?

Any comments to my Antalaya-Rhodes connection?

Yes - such artillery in the game! There was a reason for Denmark being able to collect the sound due. They had canons on either side of the sound, and if you didn't pay you didn't pass ... because you'd be shot to pieces ... from land!
Remember that there were little forts on especially one island in the sound (Flakfortet) where canons were also placed. Believe me - even without a Danish navy controlling the sound you could not pass!

Ryan is right - if Denmark controls Jyland, Sjæland, and Skåne there is no way you're gonna pass through there (unless you have military acces) - and Denmark would not voluntarily let anyone send a fleet in to mess with their back yard (the Baltic).

However with the AI working as it does I am not sure it's a good idea to implement it ... we could test it in a beta I guess, but I doubt it would be a succes.

 

[Lambert Simnel]

Antalya - Rhodes , then maybe the Ottomans can take them out someday...

and Hellas-Corfu for the same reason

 

[Hive]

Antalya - Rhodes , then maybe the Ottomans can take them out someday...

Yes - and let's connect Andalusia with Cali so AI Spain might finally conquer the Incas... :rofl:

 

[Nikolai II]

Yes - and let's connect Andalusia with Cali so AI Spain might finally conquer the Incas... :rofl:

Thank you for valuing my suggestions..

 

[Hive]

Thank you for valuing my suggestions..

Sorry if I offended you, I just think it's a bad idea. And I honestly thought you where joking.