Storytelling > realism OR why you should bring magic back

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CK3bugginME

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All we need is for Game mechanics to properly weigh traits and attributes for potential Events. Chaste and loving couples very likely won't commit adultery. Compassionate characters aren't going to turn other people into footstools, and they won't go around killing peasants.

For example, when weighing potential adultery events, the Game needs to check how Lustful the potential Spouses are, and how conniving the accuser is. It also needs to allow for the possibility of false accusations; and weigh the results of the accusations accordingly.

For the Murder Mystery Event, the Game should select a character who already has the appropriate characteristics, instead of flipping the character's traits after deciding on the story.
This is the issue I have. Alot of the quick time events don't make any sense. For example if I'm romancing someone that's cynical and not zealot or religious at all when asked what reading they would like for the entertainment the answer shouldn't be the pious choice. It makes 0 sense
 
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This is the issue I have. Alot of the quick time events don't make any sense. For example if I'm romancing someone that's cynical and not zealot or religious at all when asked what reading they would like for the entertainment the answer shouldn't be the pious choice. It makes 0 sense

Meh, cynical doesn't mean what Paradox thinks it means. Martin Luther was cynical about the Catholic Church, for instance, but was also zealous.

I'd rather the trait be changed to make more sense in the Medieval context. What we have now is a modern anachronism.
 
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Secuter

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Even if I strongly disagree that the game needs magic, I do agree with everything else—especially that the game needs drama.

Really well written post that. It touches upon one of CK3's many problems: that its events, which makes very little sense and never really make an impact on the players perception.
 
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As a consequence of the developers having, at most, two hands, sending them to make a magic DLC comes at the direct cost of not making anything else in its place. This game is so barebones and every section of it desperately needs to be improved. How could they justify putting magic anywhere near a top 20 list of DLCs? lol
 
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Torredebelem

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Being CK3 a game built on a depiction of medieval reality in Human History, I think any magic and fantasy scenarios (like supernatural societies, immortality or the Aztec's Invasion) should be addressed exclusively by mods.

It is not for want of scripting tools that at this time it is not possible for modders to develop all sorts of magical and fantasy content their minds can conjure. One can use character interactions to cast all sorts of "spells", one can build a courtroom out of adamantium to bask in that "rare metal", one can code all sorts of events with supernatural consequences, one can craft new objects using "magic" to develop them and add to their stats, one can use all sorts of decisions within the realm of fantasy and one can remake the new Aztec arrival in CK3 without major troubles.

Now, lets leave that content out of the vanilla game.
Paradox will have my cash in advance - should they decide to make available "season passes" - as long as they keep to within plausible, realistic models of reality (yes, even including the very poor Royal Court expansion). But the first instance they deviate from this course, it is the last time they will get my cash in advance. I am just a single puny voter, but I am a voter ready to vote with my wallet.
 
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Yeah, there are plenty of excellent mods available on Steam Workshop that do various fantasy worlds just fine (ranging from Vampire: the Masquerade, to Lord of the Rings, to OC universes like Godherja, just sticking with ones I've tried personally), and plenty of others in various stages of development.

The base game should stick to the actual medieval period. There's plenty of "drama" there, without needing to invent any.

But more broadly, you need the bones of the game up to snuff before you starting adding things to it. And I'd argue that there is plenty of work left to do on those bones, even in basic things like the war system, etc.
 
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I really liked secret societies in CK2 in the beginning - I mean, there was one playthrough where I became a satanic king of Ireland and had sex with my own daughter in order to give birth to the antichrist... it's not something you see everyday. The problem with societies is that they'd get boring pretty quickly - quests too repetitive, no reward that was really worth the effort, etc. I think magic falls into the same box: it's fun for two or three playthroughs, but then gets too gamey and repetitive. Just like religion, magic can be represented historically, stripped down from its mystic elements and seen as a form that people would find to try to control the future or even become powerful. We don't need to "actually" become immortal or to curse our enemies with some disease or something similar, but these are things some people were legitimately trying to do at the time and can be represented in a more realistic way.
CK3 has a fantastic mod scene - even better than its predecessor - and I think putting "real" magic in the game is a role the mods can fill perfectly well. As for societies, I still think they should be part of a DLC in the future, as long as they're not as repetitive as in CK2.
 
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Yeah, there are plenty of excellent mods available on Steam Workshop that do various fantasy worlds just fine (ranging from Vampire: the Masquerade, to Lord of the Rings, to OC universes like Godherja, just sticking with ones I've tried personally), and plenty of others in various stages of development.

To be fair I haven't really tried the mods in CK2 or CK3, I tried GOT once in CK2 but kinda bounced off of it despite liking the books. The VTM once sounds interesting, I love vampires.

since paradox owns the IP can't wait for the official crossover expansion pack

Just like religion, magic can be represented historically, stripped down from its mystic elements and seen as a form that people would find to try to control the future or even become powerful. We don't need to "actually" become immortal or to curse our enemies with some disease or something similar, but these are things some people were legitimately trying to do at the time and can be represented in a more realistic way.

A very, very close runner up to having real magic is having not-real-magic-but-they-genuinely-belief-it's-magic magic in the game. For example, I really enjoy the witch mechanic in the base game I just wish there was more content to it. Same with sorcerous metallurgy for example.
 
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Even if I strongly disagree that the game needs magic, I do agree with everything else—especially that the game needs drama.

Events are one component of the problem as they fail to be interesting most of the time. While there are some that I don't care for, most of them are fine, but even of the ones that are fine, so many of them fail to do something that is perceivably interesting. I've been going through events lately, trying to better understand the types of events in the game, and in an incredibly basic sense I can identity three main types of events in CK3: outcome events, question events, and conflict events.

Outcome events are events with only one choice. You're not making a decision, you're just acknowledging that something has happened or is about to happen. These are generally not very interesting because they don't require anything of you, but they're pretty necessary for relaying important information to the player. I would consider the birth of a child to be this type of event, though technically you do get to choose the child's name. Most of the time, though, these events spawn as reactions to other actions you've taken, like scheme setbacks/progress or the outcomes of earlier events. They can be interesting when unexpected, but in my opinion, they're mostly a necessary evil that reiterates information you need to be aware of, or else represents the end to a countdown you initiated.

Question events are events where you're making a choice, but it's the kind of choice that's equivalent to how you want the deck chairs on the Titanic arranged. These are probably the most common events in the game, and what's most frustrating to me is that they are really just the illusion of choice. These events exist almost exclusively to push numbers around, and if they do involve other characters, then you are almost never in direct conflict with them, but instead those other characters are used to spout exposition, such as introducing you to the question itself, or else they're used as a prop to give legitimacy to the question. Most Lifestyle events are these. In my opinion, no matter how well written they are, these events are not interesting in regards to telling an emergent story, and they're the ones you get most often.

Conflict events are the most interesting for story, imo, and they're also vastly underrepresented. These events also ask a question, but they're directly centered around your relationship with another character (or characters), and they require you to make decisions that might run contrary to the other person's wants, or change your relationship with them, or at the very least change your perception of something. When your spouse cheats on you and you're asked what to do about it, that's what I would consider a Conflict event. I think these events are most interesting when they ask questions that don't have a clear answer, and which ask the player to make an emotional decision rather than a gameplay one. Question events can have conflict, but it is almost always an incredibly vague sense of it, often turned inward, and often mostly unrelated to other characters or your relationship with them. Conflict events are almost always about interpersonal relationships, but sometimes the line between a Question event and a Conflict event blurs a bit.

For example, there's the Royal Aid Duty event, which does involve another character:

View attachment 861356

Despite tangentially involving your relationship with another character, I would argue that this is actually an example of a Question event. Your relationship with this character doesn't actually matter, and the decision you're making does not have a conflict with anyone else, but is only an internal conflict for your own character. In this case, your response doesn't affect your relationship, and it's frankly just not a very interesting question to begin with.

It is my belief that good events should always change a player's perception of the world by doing at least one of these three things: incite conflict, build character, and advance plot. Advancing plot is easy—Outcome events do this just by existing, telling you that something has happened, or is about to happen. Building character is easy—almost all events do this to some degree—but Question events excel at it because adding modifiers and pushing and pulling numbers is a fine way to add characterization in an RPG. What this game's events are really not good at it, though, is inciting conflict. Very few events actually seem to change the game state or (more importantly) the player's perception of it. I've seen the complaints that the game is kind of empty, and I think a lack of these events that inspire players to act is certainly a part of it.

Here's an event I would consider a Conflict event that is about my daughter who had an affair with my knight:

View attachment 861357

This has potential to make something happen. You're asked to make a judgment about another character, either forgiving their mistake or punishing them, but even when the game lands on an interpersonal struggle, it doesn't do a good job of following up on it. Yes, you can send someone to prison, but that's also ostensibly where the conflict ends. If I lock her up, I'll take an opinion hit with my own family, but is anyone actually going to do anything about it?

That's not the event's fault, though. If you start scripting follow-up events for everything, then you're moving ever closer to railroading the player into playing your story, not telling their own. But still this lack of follow-up is the other component of the game that could be improved to create much better drama and story for players. There are some really cool systems in the game, but a lot of the time I don't feel compelled to use them in reaction to the world.

To look at this event more causally, for example, what could happen next to my daughter? Does her lover care about her now that the relationship is over? Will your family do anything about you imprisoning her? Does her husband want to get her out, or is he over the whole marriage? The problem is that because events with conflict are so rare, probably none of these characters are going to do anything at all, to you, or her, to further expand on this potential story. What could be an interesting start to a player story really just becomes another Question event that pushes around numbers for your character, asking "Do you want people to like you less, or do you want to lose a level of devotion?"

And to be clear, I'm not advocating that characters have to be scripted to react intentionally and directly in response to every change in the world. The way events are designed to have weighted randomness is an absolutely fine solution. The game just needs more events with conflict so that when things happen, players can ascribe meaning to the randomness of the world's events because of current and previous conflicts.

To look at real life history, for a moment, there was the Tour de Nesle Affair in France in the early 14th century, where three of King Philip IV's daughters-in-law were accused of adultery. Their lovers were tortured and executed, and two of the daughters-in-law were imprisoned, but the way the three women were treated was quite different. One of them died under mysterious circumstances while imprisoned, another spent nearly a decade imprisoned before being consigned to a nunnery in poor health, where she would die shortly thereafter, and the third, who was supported by her husband throughout the entire ordeal, was acquitted of all charges. King Philip IV would also die the same year as the scandal, with some suggesting the shock of it contributed to his declining health.

When King Philip IV's heir, King Louis X, took over for his father, the daughter he had with one of the convicted adulteresses was later denied the throne when Louis X himself died, which inadvertently allowed for the succession crisis that led to the Hundred Years War.

If these were the events of a game, it would be an interesting story, but it also would not matter if these events were actually related or not. It doesn't matter if King Philip IV's death is a result of the shock of the scandal; it doesn't matter if Margaret, the daughter-in-law who died suspiciously, was actually murdered; and it doesn't matter if the Tour de Nesle Affair led directly to the Hundred Year War. All that matters is that things kept happening that changed the status quo.

That's where CK3 fails to be interesting. The player's perception of the world doesn't change often enough. The events in the game can be completely random and unconnected, but as long as things keep happening and there's a sense of conflict between characters, players will be able to invent meaning to the game's happenings.

But that means the player's perception of the world has to be constantly changing. It's not just enough to be asked a question that's centered around what kind of boon do you want. The relationships of characters has to be in flux in the player's mind. You have to have reasons to hate some characters, and like others. This can be achieved in the most obvious way of using game mechanics like relations (e.g., lover, friend, rival) to qualify what people think of you, but a lot of this conflict can be written entirely into flavour text—because it's the player's perception of the world and its unrelated events that matters most.

Consider again the Royal Aid Duty event from earlier. It's not an event that necessarily needs to be changed, but as it is it's not a conflict at all. It's just a straight-up question about the game's mechanics: do you want Gold, or do you want Prestige? Functionally, that's fine, but it doesn't add anything to a player's story. By changing only the flavour text, you can give the appearance of an actual conflict with other characters:

View attachment 861361
View attachment 861359

This event is about as low-stakes as it can get in the game, and here it's still just about gaining a minor amount of gold or prestige. But framed as an encounter, I think it carries more narrative weight. Your father-in-law asking for gold probably isn't going to motivate you to war, and your Steward lightly chastising you probably isn't going to incite you to murder him, but over time these things build up. The next time you have an interaction with one of these characters you might remember the time your Steward chastised you, and soon, with the impression of repeated conflict, you'll find yourself in an emerging story as subsequent encounters with Steward Gaton or King Charles stack up, even if they are entirely random.

If the game wants to be better at stories, that's where it needs to be better. Events should change the player's perception of the world and the world itself as often as possible. They don't have to be immense changes, but they have to change how the player views the world and/or the characters in it. If you murder your way to Empress, lose power in a war, then win back your throne, I would argue it's not remembering only because your Satanic magic was cool, but because of the illusion of causality created by interpersonal conflict. But I do respect the attempt to get magic into the game.
Agree much more with that than with OP, but I still agree with OP's general need. We need reasons to remember, at least:

1. Our character
2. Our spouse
3. Friends
4. Enemies
5. Other near rulers / vassals of ours

IHMO those reasons should happen not from high drama, like OP says, but from consistent mechanics that create believable enemies or friends from "normal" reasons, like irl. I don't want an event, like in ck2, that says " X bullied me through childhood so I will consider him/her my sworn enemy for life". I want people to become enemies through repeated interactions that I can make mine or little reasons that just happen to pile upon. For example I have a neighbor that always raid me cause he's a pagan. I as a player could begin considering him an enemy, cause he's so annoying /he's stealing so much money from me /destroying so much buildings / killing so much people or soldiers. But if he doesn't hurt me and so annoy me IRL, I will never consider him anything more than an annoyance, so i won't feel compelled. If there is an adventurer mechanic like in ck2, i will prepare, beat his ass and go on like nothing OR be destroyed but still WON'T feel it.

If I discover my vassal is an adulteress there should be reasons in game to make me want to hate her for being an adulteress. Not me forcing myself to punish her because my character is just so I feel compelled to do it to act the right way by playing my character right. For example, everyone should begin doubting me for leaving her free or saying "whoa, you are so just and so highstrung and now that he have a proven adulteress you do nothing?" There should be heavy events / mechanics that force my hand or otherwise force me to lose A LOT of face (more so since i'm just) if I don't punish her so I will ask myself do I at least, if I want to defy my other vassals, have to eat their shit to have her still in that position (maybe she's the best marshall with 30 points and 2nd best has 8 ).

Basically, other caracters should act like their personality suggest and DO THINGS to force me to react. Or at least I should be forced to acted by events that fire since I have in my realm characters that have the right personality traits to do those things.

Note that, at least IMHO, ck2 was NOT any better than ck3 in this thing... i didn't remember my ck2 kings like I don't remember my ck3 ones.
 
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I don't think that magic should be a focus to add, it really shifts the focus of the game when it's enabled & when paradox is pushing it. That can definitely be enjoyable - especially in multiplayer - but at the moment I'd rather they keep building up on the historical aspect that are still lacking. CK2 is still there for those that want the more random/magical aspects - or mods can add in some of those aspects pretty easily I think.

By contrast, building up more historical aspects give a lot more replayability and flavor in different areas, along with making building blocks for future mods and even magical stuff whenever they add it in.

You lost me at Aztec. Sunset Invasion is the worst DLC in the franchise and actively makes the game worse.

I wouldn't mind stuff like societies and cults coming back., But Immortal mary-sue Devil Children and OP powers are unnecessary.
That said, I'll push back on Sunset Invasion. It's certainly not for every game - but as a quick $5 DLC that they punched out for fun, I do honestly like it a lot. It gives an actual challenge in the mid-late game in western europe, and if timed for when you're starting to spiral out of control it's a nice addition for my taste.

I understand how some people dislike it, but I'm one of those that find it perfectly fine. If going into the more fantasy/magical aspects, a crisis equivalent to the Mongol for different regions of the world is fine to have in the game... as long as it can be toggled off.
 
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YellowPress

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Agree much more with that than with OP, but I still agree with OP's general need. We need reasons to remember, at least:

1. Our character
2. Our spouse
3. Friends
4. Enemies
5. Other near rulers / vassals of ours

IHMO those reasons should happen not from high drama, like OP says, but from consistent mechanics that create believable enemies or friends from "normal" reasons, like irl. I don't want an event, like in ck2, that says " X bullied me through childhood so I will consider him/her my sworn enemy for life". I want people to become enemies through repeated interactions that I can make mine or little reasons that just happen to pile upon. For example I have a neighbor that always raid me cause he's a pagan. I as a player could begin considering him an enemy, cause he's so annoying /he's stealing so much money from me /destroying so much buildings / killing so much people or soldiers. But if he doesn't hurt me and so annoy me IRL, I will never consider him anything more than an annoyance, so i won't feel compelled. If there is an adventurer mechanic like in ck2, i will prepare, beat his ass and go on like nothing OR be destroyed but still WON'T feel it.

If I discover my vassal is an adulteress there should be reasons in game to make me want to hate her for being an adulteress. Not me forcing myself to punish her because my character is just so I feel compelled to do it to act the right way by playing my character right. For example, everyone should begin doubting me for leaving her free or saying "whoa, you are so just and so highstrung and now that he have a proven adulteress you do nothing?" There should be heavy events / mechanics that force my hand or otherwise force me to lose A LOT of face (more so since i'm just) if I don't punish her so I will ask myself do I at least, if I want to defy my other vassals, have to eat their shit to have her still in that position (maybe she's the best marshall with 30 points and 2nd best has 8 ).

Basically, other caracters should act like their personality suggest and DO THINGS to force me to react. Or at least I should be forced to acted by events that fire since I have in my realm characters that have the right personality traits to do those things.
You lose piety and a level of devotion for not arresting an adulterer, how is that not repercussions, you also gain stress for acting out of character most of the time
Note that, at least IMHO, ck2 was NOT any better than ck3 in this thing... i didn't remember my ck2 kings like I don't remember my ck3 ones.
Considering how stuck in their ways ck3 characters are whilst ck2 could be far more variable, I very much doubt that
 

Ged563

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You lose piety and a level of devotion for not arresting an adulterer, how is that not repercussions, you also gain stress for acting out of character most of the time

Considering how stuck in their ways ck3 characters are whilst ck2 could be far more variable, I very much doubt that
They are not at all serious repercussions. Not at all... you can ignore them and go as you like.

For the second thing... I didn't like them changing their ways like it was nothing like it happened in ck2 even worse than what happens in ck3. For extremely silly event reasons you could change a zealot fanatical catholic to a cynic... just because (insert silly event reason). That was even more immersion breaking then them never changing. Sorry but if you completely change your personality like becoming a cynic from a zealot it should happen in time (years, at least), with a lot of struggling, changing your mind in between, even life changing reasons (ex. your son died in battle against religious enemies ). And that particular thing never helped me feeling that my king was alive... the change was too silly, easy, not suffered etc. It basically just happened, just because (or even worse, for the LOLs).