Storytelling > realism OR why you should bring magic back

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Knotz

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Once upon a time, in the golden days of yore (CK2), I had what was probably the greatest gaming experience I've ever had. Starting as the (custom) duchess of Sicily I got the immortality questline early and via the power of savescumming succeeded. I'd go on to murder Eudokia and marry the emperor. Via further scheming shenanigans I ensured that I would be elected empress if something tragic were to befall the emperor. Something tragic promptly befell the emperor - in the form of a murder of crows descending and tearing him to shreds for I had sold my soul to Satan. What followed was a glorious period of prosperity. That is, until one of my daughters left my court and betrayed me to the Catholics to launch the Fourth Crusade. I lost and was reduced to Sicily at which point I vowed to resurrect Hellenism, reconquer not only my stolen empire but also restore the borders of old. Which I did only for the pièce de résistance to arrive in the form of my satanic child at the head of an Aztec army.

Was any of this realistic? No, it was utterly, gloriously OTT. But was it compelling? Yes, absolutely. Kept me playing for the full timespan, which I think we'll is common consensus is comparatively rare, maybe especially in CK3. What CK3 lacks, among other things, is High Drama. You don't get Satan as a baby daddy, you don't get to chase immortality, you don't get to steal Byzantium from your husband, you don't get to rule as an eternal empress, your kids don't sell you out to the dirty Catholics and they definitely don't come back leading Aztec hordes. What you do get is to be a comparatively staid ruler, increasingly indistinguishable from their predecessors who occasionally do remarkable things that don't necessarily feel remarkable because their weight is primarily in the form of the background noise of minute stat increases. I want to do exciting things, I want exciting things to be done to me and CK3 has a recycling pool of samey stuff.

Now is magic necessary for High Drama? [yes] No. But I like it so I'm smuggling it into the premise despite the fact that I know a lot of people literally start frothing at the mouth at the mention. What the game does need is more compelling stories. With culture and religious overhauls we have decently compelling mechanics but we lack good interpersonal stories and the result is my playthroughs are largely indistinguishable cuz what qualifies as compelling gameplay remains similar AND nothing unique happens to my characters.
 
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Ezumiyr

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Was any of this realistic? No, it was utterly, gloriously OTT. But was it compelling? Yes, absolutely.
Your opinion. I don't think that kind of OP mechanic is suited for story-telling, personally.
Better results can be achieved in more immersive ways. You can perfectly have high drama in a middle ages context without relying on dumb tricks like some cheesy satanic church. See Fate of Iberia for instance. In fact, magic even prevents the focus from being on actual struggles that make sense. Instead of fearing the rise of a conqueror from what you thought was a dark corner of the world, you focus on some silly demonic secret society.

I just disagree entirely that you need magic to make characters or situations unique and interesting.
 
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dannazgui

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Although i know some ppl really loved that kind of thing on CK2, to me was utterly stupid. The game tries to recreate real middle ages, there isn't such as thing as immortality, possession (let's be honest, just put Madness trait in the game, for that what really is) and although the Aztec horde was nice change for battle was kinda weird. hahaha

But i agree they should add more flavours to the rulers, through ages, not everyone was called "the great"

P.S: Had to highlight that part, because ppl can't read obviously
 
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Herennius

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Strongly disagreeing with the OP...

Not so much because I can't image the story (and playing through it) being fun; magic and fantasy can be the base for fantastic games. But I don't see why this is necessary or beneficial for CK3. On the contrary, I think more realism will be good for role play. And realism includes for me new features, deepening out existing mechanics, bug fixing, better AI, the game not pampering the human player (see this thread for examples https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/hard-very-hard-difficulties.1526960/ ) and more events. The area CK3 is set in is rich enough for great gameplay and this even includes religion, mystic and characters believing in supernatural stuff. But I don't thing concepts like immortality add longlasting fun in terms of replayability. If such stuff gets added anyway, then it should be at least ensured that no one who does not want have to play it.
 
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WeeLittleSpoon

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Even if I strongly disagree that the game needs magic, I do agree with everything else—especially that the game needs drama.

Events are one component of the problem as they fail to be interesting most of the time. While there are some that I don't care for, most of them are fine, but even of the ones that are fine, so many of them fail to do something that is perceivably interesting. I've been going through events lately, trying to better understand the types of events in the game, and in an incredibly basic sense I can identity three main types of events in CK3: outcome events, question events, and conflict events.

Outcome events are events with only one choice. You're not making a decision, you're just acknowledging that something has happened or is about to happen. These are generally not very interesting because they don't require anything of you, but they're pretty necessary for relaying important information to the player. I would consider the birth of a child to be this type of event, though technically you do get to choose the child's name. Most of the time, though, these events spawn as reactions to other actions you've taken, like scheme setbacks/progress or the outcomes of earlier events. They can be interesting when unexpected, but in my opinion, they're mostly a necessary evil that reiterates information you need to be aware of, or else represents the end to a countdown you initiated.

Question events are events where you're making a choice, but it's the kind of choice that's equivalent to how you want the deck chairs on the Titanic arranged. These are probably the most common events in the game, and what's most frustrating to me is that they are really just the illusion of choice. These events exist almost exclusively to push numbers around, and if they do involve other characters, then you are almost never in direct conflict with them, but instead those other characters are used to spout exposition, such as introducing you to the question itself, or else they're used as a prop to give legitimacy to the question. Most Lifestyle events are these. In my opinion, no matter how well written they are, these events are not interesting in regards to telling an emergent story, and they're the ones you get most often.

Conflict events are the most interesting for story, imo, and they're also vastly underrepresented. These events also ask a question, but they're directly centered around your relationship with another character (or characters), and they require you to make decisions that might run contrary to the other person's wants, or change your relationship with them, or at the very least change your perception of something. When your spouse cheats on you and you're asked what to do about it, that's what I would consider a Conflict event. I think these events are most interesting when they ask questions that don't have a clear answer, and which ask the player to make an emotional decision rather than a gameplay one. Question events can have conflict, but it is almost always an incredibly vague sense of it, often turned inward, and often mostly unrelated to other characters or your relationship with them. Conflict events are almost always about interpersonal relationships, but sometimes the line between a Question event and a Conflict event blurs a bit.

For example, there's the Royal Aid Duty event, which does involve another character:

fig 3.png


Despite tangentially involving your relationship with another character, I would argue that this is actually an example of a Question event. Your relationship with this character doesn't actually matter, and the decision you're making does not have a conflict with anyone else, but is only an internal conflict for your own character. In this case, your response doesn't affect your relationship, and it's frankly just not a very interesting question to begin with.

It is my belief that good events should always change a player's perception of the world by doing at least one of these three things: incite conflict, build character, and advance plot. Advancing plot is easy—Outcome events do this just by existing, telling you that something has happened, or is about to happen. Building character is easy—almost all events do this to some degree—but Question events excel at it because adding modifiers and pushing and pulling numbers is a fine way to add characterization in an RPG. What this game's events are really not good at it, though, is inciting conflict. Very few events actually seem to change the game state or (more importantly) the player's perception of it. I've seen the complaints that the game is kind of empty, and I think a lack of these events that inspire players to act is certainly a part of it.

Here's an event I would consider a Conflict event that is about my daughter who had an affair with my knight:

fig 2.png


This has potential to make something happen. You're asked to make a judgment about another character, either forgiving their mistake or punishing them, but even when the game lands on an interpersonal struggle, it doesn't do a good job of following up on it. Yes, you can send someone to prison, but that's also ostensibly where the conflict ends. If I lock her up, I'll take an opinion hit with my own family, but is anyone actually going to do anything about it?

That's not the event's fault, though. If you start scripting follow-up events for everything, then you're moving ever closer to railroading the player into playing your story, not telling their own. But still this lack of follow-up is the other component of the game that could be improved to create much better drama and story for players. There are some really cool systems in the game, but a lot of the time I don't feel compelled to use them in reaction to the world.

To look at this event more causally, for example, what could happen next to my daughter? Does her lover care about her now that the relationship is over? Will your family do anything about you imprisoning her? Does her husband want to get her out, or is he over the whole marriage? The problem is that because events with conflict are so rare, probably none of these characters are going to do anything at all, to you, or her, to further expand on this potential story. What could be an interesting start to a player story really just becomes another Question event that pushes around numbers for your character, asking "Do you want people to like you less, or do you want to lose a level of devotion?"

And to be clear, I'm not advocating that characters have to be scripted to react intentionally and directly in response to every change in the world. The way events are designed to have weighted randomness is an absolutely fine solution. The game just needs more events with conflict so that when things happen, players can ascribe meaning to the randomness of the world's events because of current and previous conflicts.

To look at real life history, for a moment, there was the Tour de Nesle Affair in France in the early 14th century, where three of King Philip IV's daughters-in-law were accused of adultery. Their lovers were tortured and executed, and two of the daughters-in-law were imprisoned, but the way the three women were treated was quite different. One of them died under mysterious circumstances while imprisoned, another spent nearly a decade imprisoned before being consigned to a nunnery in poor health, where she would die shortly thereafter, and the third, who was supported by her husband throughout the entire ordeal, was acquitted of all charges. King Philip IV would also die the same year as the scandal, with some suggesting the shock of it contributed to his declining health.

When King Philip IV's heir, King Louis X, took over for his father, the daughter he had with one of the convicted adulteresses was later denied the throne when Louis X himself died, which inadvertently allowed for the succession crisis that led to the Hundred Years War.

If these were the events of a game, it would be an interesting story, but it also would not matter if these events were actually related or not. It doesn't matter if King Philip IV's death is a result of the shock of the scandal; it doesn't matter if Margaret, the daughter-in-law who died suspiciously, was actually murdered; and it doesn't matter if the Tour de Nesle Affair led directly to the Hundred Year War. All that matters is that things kept happening that changed the status quo.

That's where CK3 fails to be interesting. The player's perception of the world doesn't change often enough. The events in the game can be completely random and unconnected, but as long as things keep happening and there's a sense of conflict between characters, players will be able to invent meaning to the game's happenings.

But that means the player's perception of the world has to be constantly changing. It's not just enough to be asked a question that's centered around what kind of boon do you want. The relationships of characters has to be in flux in the player's mind. You have to have reasons to hate some characters, and like others. This can be achieved in the most obvious way of using game mechanics like relations (e.g., lover, friend, rival) to qualify what people think of you, but a lot of this conflict can be written entirely into flavour text—because it's the player's perception of the world and its unrelated events that matters most.

Consider again the Royal Aid Duty event from earlier. It's not an event that necessarily needs to be changed, but as it is it's not a conflict at all. It's just a straight-up question about the game's mechanics: do you want Gold, or do you want Prestige? Functionally, that's fine, but it doesn't add anything to a player's story. By changing only the flavour text, you can give the appearance of an actual conflict with other characters:

fig 6.png

fig 5.png


This event is about as low-stakes as it can get in the game, and here it's still just about gaining a minor amount of gold or prestige. But framed as an encounter, I think it carries more narrative weight. Your father-in-law asking for gold probably isn't going to motivate you to war, and your Steward lightly chastising you probably isn't going to incite you to murder him, but over time these things build up. The next time you have an interaction with one of these characters you might remember the time your Steward chastised you, and soon, with the impression of repeated conflict, you'll find yourself in an emerging story as subsequent encounters with Steward Gaton or King Charles stack up, even if they are entirely random.

If the game wants to be better at stories, that's where it needs to be better. Events should change the player's perception of the world and the world itself as often as possible. They don't have to be immense changes, but they have to change how the player views the world and/or the characters in it. If you murder your way to Empress, lose power in a war, then win back your throne, I would argue it's not remembering only because your Satanic magic was cool, but because of the illusion of causality created by interpersonal conflict. But I do respect the attempt to get magic into the game.
 

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I not only disagree with the notion that the game needs supernatural elements, but also with the notion that the game needs more "drama".

The attempt to introduce more "drama" into the game is what led to a lot of the worst events and event-chains that can currently be found in CK3. The footstool-event, the murders at court event-chain, the fake bastard event, your heir always murdering peasants at hunts, the untold number of adultery events, etc. All of these events are supposed to add "drama", and the game would be better without them.

What CK3 really needs is not more "drama", but more consistent and realistic characterization.
 
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vandevere

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Even if I strongly disagree that the game needs magic, I do agree with everything else—especially that the game needs drama.

Events are one component of the problem as they fail to be interesting most of the time. While there are some that I don't care for, most of them are fine, but even of the ones that are fine, so many of them fail to do something that is perceivably interesting. I've been going through events lately, trying to better understand the types of events in the game, and in an incredibly basic sense I can identity three main types of events in CK3: outcome events, question events, and conflict events.

Outcome events are events with only one choice. You're not making a decision, you're just acknowledging that something has happened or is about to happen. These are generally not very interesting because they don't require anything of you, but they're pretty necessary for relaying important information to the player. I would consider the birth of a child to be this type of event, though technically you do get to choose the child's name. Most of the time, though, these events spawn as reactions to other actions you've taken, like scheme setbacks/progress or the outcomes of earlier events. They can be interesting when unexpected, but in my opinion, they're mostly a necessary evil that reiterates information you need to be aware of, or else represents the end to a countdown you initiated.

Question events are events where you're making a choice, but it's the kind of choice that's equivalent to how you want the deck chairs on the Titanic arranged. These are probably the most common events in the game, and what's most frustrating to me is that they are really just the illusion of choice. These events exist almost exclusively to push numbers around, and if they do involve other characters, then you are almost never in direct conflict with them, but instead those other characters are used to spout exposition, such as introducing you to the question itself, or else they're used as a prop to give legitimacy to the question. Most Lifestyle events are these. In my opinion, no matter how well written they are, these events are not interesting in regards to telling an emergent story, and they're the ones you get most often.

Conflict events are the most interesting for story, imo, and they're also vastly underrepresented. These events also ask a question, but they're directly centered around your relationship with another character (or characters), and they require you to make decisions that might run contrary to the other person's wants, or change your relationship with them, or at the very least change your perception of something. When your spouse cheats on you and you're asked what to do about it, that's what I would consider a Conflict event. I think these events are most interesting when they ask questions that don't have a clear answer, and which ask the player to make an emotional decision rather than a gameplay one. Question events can have conflict, but it is almost always an incredibly vague sense of it, often turned inward, and often mostly unrelated to other characters or your relationship with them. Conflict events are almost always about interpersonal relationships, but sometimes the line between a Question event and a Conflict event blurs a bit.

For example, there's the Royal Aid Duty event, which does involve another character:

View attachment 861356

Despite tangentially involving your relationship with another character, I would argue that this is actually an example of a Question event. Your relationship with this character doesn't actually matter, and the decision you're making does not have a conflict with anyone else, but is only an internal conflict for your own character. In this case, your response doesn't affect your relationship, and it's frankly just not a very interesting question to begin with.

It is my belief that good events should always change a player's perception of the world by doing at least one of these three things: incite conflict, build character, and advance plot. Advancing plot is easy—Outcome events do this just by existing, telling you that something has happened, or is about to happen. Building character is easy—almost all events do this to some degree—but Question events excel at it because adding modifiers and pushing and pulling numbers is a fine way to add characterization in an RPG. What this game's events are really not good at it, though, is inciting conflict. Very few events actually seem to change the game state or (more importantly) the player's perception of it. I've seen the complaints that the game is kind of empty, and I think a lack of these events that inspire players to act is certainly a part of it.

Here's an event I would consider a Conflict event that is about my daughter who had an affair with my knight:

View attachment 861357

This has potential to make something happen. You're asked to make a judgment about another character, either forgiving their mistake or punishing them, but even when the game lands on an interpersonal struggle, it doesn't do a good job of following up on it. Yes, you can send someone to prison, but that's also ostensibly where the conflict ends. If I lock her up, I'll take an opinion hit with my own family, but is anyone actually going to do anything about it?

That's not the event's fault, though. If you start scripting follow-up events for everything, then you're moving ever closer to railroading the player into playing your story, not telling their own. But still this lack of follow-up is the other component of the game that could be improved to create much better drama and story for players. There are some really cool systems in the game, but a lot of the time I don't feel compelled to use them in reaction to the world.

To look at this event more causally, for example, what could happen next to my daughter? Does her lover care about her now that the relationship is over? Will your family do anything about you imprisoning her? Does her husband want to get her out, or is he over the whole marriage? The problem is that because events with conflict are so rare, probably none of these characters are going to do anything at all, to you, or her, to further expand on this potential story. What could be an interesting start to a player story really just becomes another Question event that pushes around numbers for your character, asking "Do you want people to like you less, or do you want to lose a level of devotion?"

And to be clear, I'm not advocating that characters have to be scripted to react intentionally and directly in response to every change in the world. The way events are designed to have weighted randomness is an absolutely fine solution. The game just needs more events with conflict so that when things happen, players can ascribe meaning to the randomness of the world's events because of current and previous conflicts.

To look at real life history, for a moment, there was the Tour de Nesle Affair in France in the early 14th century, where three of King Philip IV's daughters-in-law were accused of adultery. Their lovers were tortured and executed, and two of the daughters-in-law were imprisoned, but the way the three women were treated was quite different. One of them died under mysterious circumstances while imprisoned, another spent nearly a decade imprisoned before being consigned to a nunnery in poor health, where she would die shortly thereafter, and the third, who was supported by her husband throughout the entire ordeal, was acquitted of all charges. King Philip IV would also die the same year as the scandal, with some suggesting the shock of it contributed to his declining health.

When King Philip IV's heir, King Louis X, took over for his father, the daughter he had with one of the convicted adulteresses was later denied the throne when Louis X himself died, which inadvertently allowed for the succession crisis that led to the Hundred Years War.

If these were the events of a game, it would be an interesting story, but it also would not matter if these events were actually related or not. It doesn't matter if King Philip IV's death is a result of the shock of the scandal; it doesn't matter if Margaret, the daughter-in-law who died suspiciously, was actually murdered; and it doesn't matter if the Tour de Nesle Affair led directly to the Hundred Year War. All that matters is that things kept happening that changed the status quo.

That's where CK3 fails to be interesting. The player's perception of the world doesn't change often enough. The events in the game can be completely random and unconnected, but as long as things keep happening and there's a sense of conflict between characters, players will be able to invent meaning to the game's happenings.

But that means the player's perception of the world has to be constantly changing. It's not just enough to be asked a question that's centered around what kind of boon do you want. The relationships of characters has to be in flux in the player's mind. You have to have reasons to hate some characters, and like others. This can be achieved in the most obvious way of using game mechanics like relations (e.g., lover, friend, rival) to qualify what people think of you, but a lot of this conflict can be written entirely into flavour text—because it's the player's perception of the world and its unrelated events that matters most.

Consider again the Royal Aid Duty event from earlier. It's not an event that necessarily needs to be changed, but as it is it's not a conflict at all. It's just a straight-up question about the game's mechanics: do you want Gold, or do you want Prestige? Functionally, that's fine, but it doesn't add anything to a player's story. By changing only the flavour text, you can give the appearance of an actual conflict with other characters:

View attachment 861361
View attachment 861359

This event is about as low-stakes as it can get in the game, and here it's still just about gaining a minor amount of gold or prestige. But framed as an encounter, I think it carries more narrative weight. Your father-in-law asking for gold probably isn't going to motivate you to war, and your Steward lightly chastising you probably isn't going to incite you to murder him, but over time these things build up. The next time you have an interaction with one of these characters you might remember the time your Steward chastised you, and soon, with the impression of repeated conflict, you'll find yourself in an emerging story as subsequent encounters with Steward Gaton or King Charles stack up, even if they are entirely random.

If the game wants to be better at stories, that's where it needs to be better. Events should change the player's perception of the world and the world itself as often as possible. They don't have to be immense changes, but they have to change how the player views the world and/or the characters in it. If you murder your way to Empress, lose power in a war, then win back your throne, I would argue it's not remembering only because your Satanic magic was cool, but because of the illusion of causality created by interpersonal conflict. But I do respect the attempt to get magic into the game.
One thing that needs to be changed is the Games tendency to brute force things in the name of "Drama". I don't know if the "Disputed Blood" Mechanic is still around, but when CK3 first came out, your Ruler and Spouse-even when soulmates and utterly in love with each other-would get hit by an accusation of infidelity, with your child being cited as a bastard,

On its own, not so bad. But the Game would quite literally cheat. If you play with the Console Open, and check the child's paternity before the accusation, the child is yours'. Post accusation, though, the Game would literally change the child's paternity, turning the child into an overnight bastard.

There was no chance for the loving couple to fight back against the accusations. It was Instant Guilt. But, for the Drama we're supposed to have, the traits of all the involved parties-the accused and the accuser-need to be factored in, the possibilities of success-failure calculated.

If the couple are known to be loving and loyal, it's the accuser who should fail...

That's where we get the Drama, not by the Game rail-roading us...
 
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I personally don't like it, but if they bring it back with the same options to turn stuff like that off (like you can in CK2), it's not going to bother me.
 
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One thing that needs to be changed is the Games tendency to brute force things in the name of "Drama".
Yes, I definitely agree. There's a big difference in my mind between doing something that makes the player want to act, and something that forces something illogical on the player. Bad stuff has to happen sometimes to characters that is out of their control, because that's just life, but the footstool event, the disputed heritage event, those are in a league of their own for having no regard to the logical flow of a story.
 
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You lost me at Aztec. Sunset Invasion is the worst DLC in the franchise and actively makes the game worse.

I wouldn't mind stuff like societies and cults coming back., But Immortal mary-sue Devil Children and OP powers are unnecessary.
 
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Everybody's complaining about magic. That's not OP's point.
We need drama, stories, events, interpersonal relationships which actually matters (I don't need nor want to discover I have one rival when he dies thanks to an stress-relieving event).
 
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Knotz

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there are many DLC's to come

Naturally, it is Paradox we're talking about after all. However, of the DLC that have been released they've failed to give me compelling stories (magical or otherwise). I liked Northern Lords for the ability to elevate Mann and the Isles, that was fun. I liked Royal Court for the cultural stuff but was and continue to be disappointed with the court and artifacts themselves, they're symptomatic of empty stat bloat and once-off recycling decisions that add nothing beyond ignorable multipliers. I liked Iberia because of the potential of the struggle mechanic, which I would consider High Drama potentially, however I am unfortunately completely disinterested in playing there.

I want memorable events, I want reversals of fortune, I want to be able to recall what my rulers went through uniquely and I'm just not getting that.

You lost me at Aztec. Sunset Invasion is the worst DLC in the franchise and actively makes the game worse.

I wouldn't mind stuff like societies and cults coming back., But Immortal mary-sue Devil Children and OP powers are unnecessary.

Magic doesn't have to be OP. The game has an enormous problem with stat-creep as is completely sans magic, they're independent variables.

2022_07_18_2.png


Even if I strongly disagree that the game needs magic, I do agree with everything else—especially that the game needs drama.



Events are one component of the problem as they fail to be interesting most of the time. While there are some that I don't care for, most of them are fine, but even of the ones that are fine, so many of them fail to do something that is perceivably interesting. I've been going through events lately, trying to better understand the types of events in the game, and in an incredibly basic sense I can identity three main types of events in CK3: outcome events, question events, and conflict events.

Outcome events are events with only one choice. You're not making a decision, you're just acknowledging that something has happened or is about to happen. These are generally not very interesting because they don't require anything of you, but they're pretty necessary for relaying important information to the player. I would consider the birth of a child to be this type of event, though technically you do get to choose the child's name. Most of the time, though, these events spawn as reactions to other actions you've taken, like scheme setbacks/progress or the outcomes of earlier events. They can be interesting when unexpected, but in my opinion, they're mostly a necessary evil that reiterates information you need to be aware of, or else represents the end to a countdown you initiated.

Question events are events where you're making a choice, but it's the kind of choice that's equivalent to how you want the deck chairs on the Titanic arranged. These are probably the most common events in the game, and what's most frustrating to me is that they are really just the illusion of choice. These events exist almost exclusively to push numbers around, and if they do involve other characters, then you are almost never in direct conflict with them, but instead those other characters are used to spout exposition, such as introducing you to the question itself, or else they're used as a prop to give legitimacy to the question. Most Lifestyle events are these. In my opinion, no matter how well written they are, these events are not interesting in regards to telling an emergent story, and they're the ones you get most often.

Conflict events are the most interesting for story, imo, and they're also vastly underrepresented. These events also ask a question, but they're directly centered around your relationship with another character (or characters), and they require you to make decisions that might run contrary to the other person's wants, or change your relationship with them, or at the very least change your perception of something. When your spouse cheats on you and you're asked what to do about it, that's what I would consider a Conflict event. I think these events are most interesting when they ask questions that don't have a clear answer, and which ask the player to make an emotional decision rather than a gameplay one. Question events can have conflict, but it is almost always an incredibly vague sense of it, often turned inward, and often mostly unrelated to other characters or your relationship with them. Conflict events are almost always about interpersonal relationships, but sometimes the line between a Question event and a Conflict event blurs a bit.

For example, there's the Royal Aid Duty event, which does involve another character:

View attachment 861356

Despite tangentially involving your relationship with another character, I would argue that this is actually an example of a Question event. Your relationship with this character doesn't actually matter, and the decision you're making does not have a conflict with anyone else, but is only an internal conflict for your own character. In this case, your response doesn't affect your relationship, and it's frankly just not a very interesting question to begin with.

It is my belief that good events should always change a player's perception of the world by doing at least one of these three things: incite conflict, build character, and advance plot. Advancing plot is easy—Outcome events do this just by existing, telling you that something has happened, or is about to happen. Building character is easy—almost all events do this to some degree—but Question events excel at it because adding modifiers and pushing and pulling numbers is a fine way to add characterization in an RPG. What this game's events are really not good at it, though, is inciting conflict. Very few events actually seem to change the game state or (more importantly) the player's perception of it. I've seen the complaints that the game is kind of empty, and I think a lack of these events that inspire players to act is certainly a part of it.

Here's an event I would consider a Conflict event that is about my daughter who had an affair with my knight:

View attachment 861357

This has potential to make something happen. You're asked to make a judgment about another character, either forgiving their mistake or punishing them, but even when the game lands on an interpersonal struggle, it doesn't do a good job of following up on it. Yes, you can send someone to prison, but that's also ostensibly where the conflict ends. If I lock her up, I'll take an opinion hit with my own family, but is anyone actually going to do anything about it?

That's not the event's fault, though. If you start scripting follow-up events for everything, then you're moving ever closer to railroading the player into playing your story, not telling their own. But still this lack of follow-up is the other component of the game that could be improved to create much better drama and story for players. There are some really cool systems in the game, but a lot of the time I don't feel compelled to use them in reaction to the world.

To look at this event more causally, for example, what could happen next to my daughter? Does her lover care about her now that the relationship is over? Will your family do anything about you imprisoning her? Does her husband want to get her out, or is he over the whole marriage? The problem is that because events with conflict are so rare, probably none of these characters are going to do anything at all, to you, or her, to further expand on this potential story. What could be an interesting start to a player story really just becomes another Question event that pushes around numbers for your character, asking "Do you want people to like you less, or do you want to lose a level of devotion?"

And to be clear, I'm not advocating that characters have to be scripted to react intentionally and directly in response to every change in the world. The way events are designed to have weighted randomness is an absolutely fine solution. The game just needs more events with conflict so that when things happen, players can ascribe meaning to the randomness of the world's events because of current and previous conflicts.

To look at real life history, for a moment, there was the Tour de Nesle Affair in France in the early 14th century, where three of King Philip IV's daughters-in-law were accused of adultery. Their lovers were tortured and executed, and two of the daughters-in-law were imprisoned, but the way the three women were treated was quite different. One of them died under mysterious circumstances while imprisoned, another spent nearly a decade imprisoned before being consigned to a nunnery in poor health, where she would die shortly thereafter, and the third, who was supported by her husband throughout the entire ordeal, was acquitted of all charges. King Philip IV would also die the same year as the scandal, with some suggesting the shock of it contributed to his declining health.

When King Philip IV's heir, King Louis X, took over for his father, the daughter he had with one of the convicted adulteresses was later denied the throne when Louis X himself died, which inadvertently allowed for the succession crisis that led to the Hundred Years War.

If these were the events of a game, it would be an interesting story, but it also would not matter if these events were actually related or not. It doesn't matter if King Philip IV's death is a result of the shock of the scandal; it doesn't matter if Margaret, the daughter-in-law who died suspiciously, was actually murdered; and it doesn't matter if the Tour de Nesle Affair led directly to the Hundred Year War. All that matters is that things kept happening that changed the status quo.

That's where CK3 fails to be interesting. The player's perception of the world doesn't change often enough. The events in the game can be completely random and unconnected, but as long as things keep happening and there's a sense of conflict between characters, players will be able to invent meaning to the game's happenings.

But that means the player's perception of the world has to be constantly changing. It's not just enough to be asked a question that's centered around what kind of boon do you want. The relationships of characters has to be in flux in the player's mind. You have to have reasons to hate some characters, and like others. This can be achieved in the most obvious way of using game mechanics like relations (e.g., lover, friend, rival) to qualify what people think of you, but a lot of this conflict can be written entirely into flavour text—because it's the player's perception of the world and its unrelated events that matters most.

Consider again the Royal Aid Duty event from earlier. It's not an event that necessarily needs to be changed, but as it is it's not a conflict at all. It's just a straight-up question about the game's mechanics: do you want Gold, or do you want Prestige? Functionally, that's fine, but it doesn't add anything to a player's story. By changing only the flavour text, you can give the appearance of an actual conflict with other characters:

View attachment 861361
View attachment 861359

This event is about as low-stakes as it can get in the game, and here it's still just about gaining a minor amount of gold or prestige. But framed as an encounter, I think it carries more narrative weight. Your father-in-law asking for gold probably isn't going to motivate you to war, and your Steward lightly chastising you probably isn't going to incite you to murder him, but over time these things build up. The next time you have an interaction with one of these characters you might remember the time your Steward chastised you, and soon, with the impression of repeated conflict, you'll find yourself in an emerging story as subsequent encounters with Steward Gaton or King Charles stack up, even if they are entirely random.

If the game wants to be better at stories, that's where it needs to be better. Events should change the player's perception of the world and the world itself as often as possible. They don't have to be immense changes, but they have to change how the player views the world and/or the characters in it. If you murder your way to Empress, lose power in a war, then win back your throne, I would argue it's not remembering only because your Satanic magic was cool, but because of the illusion of causality created by interpersonal conflict. But I do respect the attempt to get magic into the game.

Shit, wow yeah this is an excellent analysis of what's missing with events.

One of the [rare] things that happened to my characters that I actually find interesting was when one of my rulers had a set of traits that meant he was extremely stressed all of the time. I had him try to commit suicide but his son found him and he stopped. Then, later, that same son asked him to go for a jog and my character got the athletic trait. Later the son asked him if he was doing better.

Now the doing better event is related to the suicide event, if you say yes they become friends. BUT the exercise event has nothing to with either, you can just ask someone to exercise with you if you have the athletic trait. But I went away from it feeling like something compelling, a small but meaningful interpersonal bit of drama, had occurred.

Still want magic tho.
I not only disagree with the notion that the game needs supernatural elements, but also with the notion that the game needs more "drama".

The attempt to introduce more "drama" into the game is what led to a lot of the worst events and event-chains that can currently be found in CK3. The footstool-event, the murders at court event-chain, the fake bastard event, your heir always murdering peasants at hunts, the untold number of adultery events, etc. All of these events are supposed to add "drama", and the game would be better without them.

What CK3 really needs is not more "drama", but more consistent and realistic characterization.

I wouldn't consider any of those good examples of drama personally. Good drama is a unique story, not something that can repeat every second or third character. I got the footstool event like 5 times with aforementioned highly stressed character. The event might be fun in isolation, if it was unique, but what's the point if the same ruler has five pickled head footstools? And no one really cares beyond the stat changes? Same problem with the heir murdering thing, paranoid/sadistic/ambitious + a hunt basically guarantees they do this. Sometimes the same heir multiple times with the same set of responses. And the serial killer event could be interesting but it's literally never worked well for me, every time it fires someone (seemingly entirely random) at my court dies and the killings 'mysteriously' stop.

I personally don't like it, but if they bring it back with the same options to turn stuff like that off (like you can in CK2), it's not going to bother me.

If they ever do add supernatural events again (which is a long shot, alas) I'm sure they'll go through pains to ensure it's toggleability, at least if the forum's opinion is indicative of the broader playerbase.
 
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Knotz

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Everybody's complaining about magic. That's not OP's point.
We need drama, stories, events, interpersonal relationships which actually matters (I don't need nor want to discover I have one rival when he dies thanks to an stress-relieving event).

I mean, true which is why I said this:

Now is magic necessary for High Drama? [yes] No. But I like it so I'm smuggling it into the premise despite the fact that I know a lot of people literally start frothing at the mouth at the mention.

However, I knew this would be the result if I used the word magic and did it anyway because I do genuinely want it even if the overall point could be made without it.
 
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Not only do I disagree that storytelling is more important than realism, I'd argue that more realism would lead to better stories!

I could come up with numerous examples, but I'd like to focus on the one that flummoxed me most: land giving.

In real life, who gets what piece of land was one of the most important decisions a ruler had to make. They needed to balance the expectations and ambitions of their vassals while at the same time keeping them from becoming too powerful. Those that helped needed to be rewarded, and breaking the social contract resulted in backlash.

In the game land giving is so monotonous that many mods automate it.

This breaks my brain. I genuinely cannot understand why Paradox would do this. It is truly bizarre.

Even a relatively simple system that only affects characters' and factions' opinions in positive and negative ways would be infinitely better to what we have.

Imagine a very powerful and ambitious vassal, whose army you need to fight a war, offers his army with the expectation of being rewarded with choice land after the conquest. You win the war, but now have a difficult choice: give the vassal more land at the risk of him becoming more powerful, or refuse and face the social consequences?

Both choices could lead to drama that is both more realistic and results in better storytelling than magic or silly covens.
 
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Torredebelem

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I personally don't like it, but if they bring it back with the same options to turn stuff like that off (like you can in CK2), it's not going to bother me.
But while they are developing that sort of useless and unimmersible "magic content", they are not developing many other realistic systems that *do* add to the gameplay. So, a "don't bother" attitude because "magic content" can be turn off in the game rules continues to have its serious drawbacks.
 
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I don't mind the Drama, if were focused and based in Medieval settings. Because, middle ages were a very fused drama life.tragic ones too... but drama

Anyway, I think we need more like middle ages settings, events, etc..
 
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vandevere

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Sure. And we don't need cheap, divisive, anachronistic gimmicks like Aztecs/satanic powers to accomplish that.
All we need is for Game mechanics to properly weigh traits and attributes for potential Events. Chaste and loving couples very likely won't commit adultery. Compassionate characters aren't going to turn other people into footstools, and they won't go around killing peasants.

For example, when weighing potential adultery events, the Game needs to check how Lustful the potential Spouses are, and how conniving the accuser is. It also needs to allow for the possibility of false accusations; and weigh the results of the accusations accordingly.

For the Murder Mystery Event, the Game should select a character who already has the appropriate characteristics, instead of flipping the character's traits after deciding on the story.
 
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