Stop with the Idiotically Stupidly Insanely Large Rebel Sizes

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PeterCorless

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I give absolutely no credence to anyone who says that this is a "good thing" or that it "works for you" or "L2P" or any of that nonsense. Anyone who states anything akin to that has little knowledge of military history.

My main point is that the Lollards, in particular, were anemic and unable to rouse a single regiment's worth of troops historically. This is, and has always been, an inflated event with no basis in history. The Lollard revolt needs to be nerfed or just excised from the event files. If anything, it could be some sort of impact to stability. Not a -1 stab hit, but, for instance, some malus to increase stability. +5% cost or something. Because they were nothing but a distraction to England. They were never a military threat to the crown. The game should simulate them via some other mechanic than simply tossing improbably stupidly huge numbers of rebels on the map.

If that's the best Paradox can do, then they aren't trying hard enough.

The overarching problem of "too many rebels" has also been noted by other people, and I would support them. Paradox has always gone back-and-forth on rebels, from CK2 to Vicky2. Too many. Too few. Too tough. Too easy.

The current game is basically unplayable for me because it's just badly designed, badly balanced, and badly tested. Any playthrough would show how many nations are just getting wrecked from an absurd amount of rebels. The AI cannot handle the basics of rebel-stomping, especially at the scale of the rebellions now being generated.

Yes, yes, yes. I can understand if people grow too fast/too soon, and have a mix of cultures and religions. Yes, rebels will be tricky then. But if the game is just blatantly punishing anyone for taking any action to increase the size of their nation, then forget it. I'd have more fun arguing politics on Facebook or trying to teach algebra to a tween.
 

Trademaster

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I have never had any major problems with rebels in the AoW. You need to keep an eye on your provinces and station troops on the high RR ones. It might be even necessary to increase autonomy sometimes.
 

Freudia

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I have never had any major problems with rebels in the AoW. You need to keep an eye on your provinces and station troops on the high RR ones. It might be even necessary to increase autonomy sometimes.

It's not about whether you have problems with it or not; it's about two things:

1) Rebel stacks are historically and realistically implausible
2) Rebel stacks are too much for the AI to handle
 

ChildeR

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It's not about whether you have problems with it or not; it's about two things:

1) Rebel stacks are historically and realistically implausible
2) Rebel stacks are too much for the AI to handle

1) I don't care about (gameplay trumps historicity), but 2) needs some fixing. AI quite often takes too much land and never seems to raise autonomy to counteract nationalism. It's not a problem with the size of the stacks so much as the AI not knowing how to avoid them.
 

Freudia

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1) I don't care about (gameplay trumps historicity), but 2) needs some fixing. AI quite often takes too much land and never seems to raise autonomy to counteract nationalism. It's not a problem with the size of the stacks so much as the AI not knowing how to avoid them.

I only half care about 1), but definitely care about 2). Fixing 1) fixes 2) anyways, though; besides, the challenge of the game should come from your opponents in war, not from magic rebel stacks.
 

Jeggred86

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So far I have played Kongo and Kilwa in AoW (and a bit of experimenting with getting Poland into the HRE)

I don't know about the rest of the world, but the African nation can't handle the rebels.

Nation A eats B, C and D. Rebels spawn.
Nation B and C get released. Nation B eats A and C. Rebels spawn.
Nation C and D get released. Nation D eats B and C. Rebels spawn.

The rest you can imagine.

As a human I can adapt to the rebel system, but only with a lot of Autonomy spamming.
When you get Humanism and an unrest adviser you are good to go. As a non western country that takes a lot longer, so the first years are even slower than before because you can't expand much. Or you will get nothing from the provinces because you have to raise autonomy in every province you conquer.

The only way I could work with the rebel system was by preventing rebellions. But when they spawn you can't do much as small / low tech nation.
Rebels seem to spawn at forcelimit size * provinces with unrest of the same type. In my Kongo game I had a FL of 7 and got 5 rebel stacks of 7 (was my fault for decreasing autonomy). Before I could defeat the first two stacks the other three joined up in one province to a 21 stack... unbeatable. With a big country like France or Spain that shouldn't be a problem. The relation of provinces in a stable state to provinces with unrest should be high enough to beat the rebels. But when you are an OPM and get 2-3 new provinces in a war with unrest you have a problem. You can raise autonomy but then the provinces are worth nothing.
 

gothos

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When you get Humanism and an unrest adviser you are good to go. As a non western country that takes a lot longer, so the first years are even slower than before because you can't expand much. Or you will get nothing from the provinces because you have to raise autonomy in every province you conquer.

The only way I could work with the rebel system was by preventing rebellions. But when they spawn you can't do much as small / low tech nation.
Rebels seem to spawn at forcelimit size * provinces with unrest of the same type. In my Kongo game I had a FL of 7 and got 5 rebel stacks of 7 (was my fault for decreasing autonomy). Before I could defeat the first two stacks the other three joined up in one province to a 21 stack... unbeatable. With a big country like France or Spain that shouldn't be a problem. The relation of provinces in a stable state to provinces with unrest should be high enough to beat the rebels. But when you are an OPM and get 2-3 new provinces in a war with unrest you have a problem. You can raise autonomy but then the provinces are worth nothing.

Also as Kongo I got Shamanist Zealots in 5 stacks of 11 with a forcelimit of 8. That was after the conversion to catholic event, and I couldn't increase autonomy in several provinces due to having decreased it recently already. I guess I'll just have to let them convert me back, at least I get to keep the government reform.
 

ChildeR

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But when you are an OPM and get 2-3 new provinces in a war with unrest you have a problem. You can raise autonomy but then the provinces are worth nothing.

In my (limited) experience, early game it's smart to increase autonomy in all but 1-2 of the new provinces (assuming they have same type rebels). Those 1-2 will go down in nationalism fast enough that no rebels spawn and will give you decent income and manpower after coring. When the faction disappears you can think about increasing LA, again in 1-2 at a time until/unless you have a lot of negative unrest modifiers. Just watch the faction progress tooltip. It gives an estimate of how long before rebels spawn, that should either stay constant (due to nationalism going down) or be a longer time than LA changes take and you are golden.
 

Bragi

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In my (limited) experience, early game it's smart to increase autonomy in all but 1-2 of the new provinces (assuming they have same type rebels). Those 1-2 will go down in nationalism fast enough that no rebels spawn and will give you decent income and manpower after coring. When the faction disappears you can think about increasing LA, again in 1-2 at a time until/unless you have a lot of negative unrest modifiers. Just watch the faction progress tooltip. It gives an estimate of how long before rebels spawn, that should either stay constant (due to nationalism going down) or be a longer time than LA changes take and you are golden.

Yes, that kinda works, especially if when you are able to manage a small stack of rebels, like from said 1-2 provinces. It's possible to decrease LA, get at least some cash out of the 1-2 provinces, let them revolt if you think you are strong enough and crush them. Afterwards, enjoy the -20 "recently rebelled"-bonus to unrest.
 

gothos

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In my (limited) experience, early game it's smart to increase autonomy in all but 1-2 of the new provinces (assuming they have same type rebels). Those 1-2 will go down in nationalism fast enough that no rebels spawn and will give you decent income and manpower after coring. When the faction disappears you can think about increasing LA, again in 1-2 at a time until/unless you have a lot of negative unrest modifiers. Just watch the faction progress tooltip. It gives an estimate of how long before rebels spawn, that should either stay constant (due to nationalism going down) or be a longer time than LA changes take and you are golden.

This also makes high-basetax provinces way more valuable than a larger number of lower-basetax provinces. From what I've seen, rebel spawn size isn't affected by local province BT, and it's way easier to keep tabs on a single 6 BT province with 15% unrest than it is to keep tabs on 6BT spread across 4 provinces with even 5% unrest. There also seems to be a soft threshold for how much you can take in a war without dire consequences - the threshold being an amount of province/unrest combination that lets you integrate them without an uprising.

Does anyone have any data about what exact amounts of Mil needed for harsh treatment now?
 

ChildeR

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Yes, that kinda works, especially if when you are able to manage a small stack of rebels, like from said 1-2 provinces.

Or can afford 1-2 harsh treatments. When dealing with nationalism it's quite cheap because by the time progress is close to 100% the unrest is already very low. Not so cheap if unrest is static due to LA increase.
 

GeneralVonGelre

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Although I don't have a problem with the new rebel mechanics... they do from time to time seem... a bit unfair...

In my Byzantium game Theodoro got crushed by a 15K peasant stack... the poor nation had no tax income anymore
 

Red John

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Can confirm.

Bought game for war, the rebels are more challenging and numerous than French armies in the Napoleonic era.

God bless you, Paradox.
 

Franconian

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As Connaught, I have no issues taking and keeping the other 3 free Ireland countries. I may have to spend some MP to keep them in line, but there is no danger of them uprising.

I also cannot confirm PeterCorless with the Lollard stacks. The England AI has no problem wiping them out. None. Of course that maybe an AI/Luck thing. I am not sure if a player can support 44 mercs for years with destroyed light ships?
 

Denkt

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Be very careful with lowering LA because not only do it give +10 unrest but you cant increase it for -10 unrest which should be your main weapon against rebels.
Often just let LA be atleast let most of nationalism past before you lower it.
I have only been hitted once by chain rebelion which was because I had overextension over 100% which add alot of global unrest but I had no problem defeating rebels.
 

ranbir

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Until combat isn't all about stacks only then can we have meaningful rebellions.

Been 10 years now and I've never had to worry about anything other than "is my stack bigger". Leader stats, don't care, terrain, don't care. As long as my stack is bigger and I have more big stacks roaming around, I know I will win everything.

But as much as we find rebellion stacks immersion breaking, let's be honest, a lot of changes in 4 broke immersion to feel all gamey.

They should be threats in realistic, meaningful ways.

Rebellion existing in a country should be dealing production efficiency damage, trade damage, other instabilities. If the only way they can make rebellions a threat is super huge clone armies that make no sense for the time...then this game is gamier than ever. I don't think that is going to change anymore with the direction we go.

So yeah...chill, just wait for a mod to do something.
 

oblio-

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There's nothing they can do. This problem is actually a problem of asymmetrical warfare/guerrilla warfare.
It's the same thing you have when playing the Knights/Albania/Assam/Wallachia. You cannot fight the big guys because the game isn't designed to allow it.

That's why EU4 tries to compensate by using larger numbers of rebels, in this case.
At least be thankful that they changed the revolt system to something predictable! :)