Stop with the Idiotically Stupidly Insanely Large Rebel Sizes

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Arilou

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The problem is one of threat. Remember that say, Sweden has at least a couple *successful* revolts in the game's timeframe. England likewise. France is more arguably. (apart from the Revolution there's also the settlement ending the Wars of Religion, but that one is admittedly questionable)

There's just no good way to model how even a relatively small rebellion could be a threat to an existing ruler.
 

Gemberkoekje

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I think for a player, it's relatively easy to manage things like local authonomy, stability etcetera to simply not get rebels.

For an AI, appearantly, not so much. I think the AI should be changed to handle them better, rather than the rebels themselves.
 

No idea

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The problem is one of threat. Remember that say, Sweden has at least a couple *successful* revolts in the game's timeframe. England likewise. France is more arguably. (apart from the Revolution there's also the settlement ending the Wars of Religion, but that one is admittedly questionable)

There's just no good way to model how even a relatively small rebellion could be a threat to an existing ruler.

The game has all the elements to model how a small rebellion might be dangerous.

1. MP. What if you are low on it?
2. Money. What if you have MP but few units and you are low on funds because of previous wars?
3. War. What if you are at war with several countries and your units are in a far away land?
 

ChildeR

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I dont think so. Read my post. Rebellions can still be dangerous under many circunstances.

Many? Maybe, but not most. A half FL rebellion is *usually* no threat at all. Meaning they'd have to be significantly more common to be a similar threat, and that means it's just a pointless chore most of the time. I'd rather just take a manpower penalty than beat down easy rebellions.
 

Ranjid

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In this case the problem is the AI. England is filthy rich now and can afford to increase autonomy in exchange for peace. If the AI would handle autonomy and unrest even half as good as a human player can, it'd be non-issue.
 

mattkunz

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Yes, I'm not sure the game would be more fun if instead of spawning an army that rivals yours, the rebels would take control of half your units. Maybe it would and I hope the devs explore it, but the current system is fine. Small tweaks to numbers may be needed, but I hope no major decrease happens.

It's great that we mostly got rid of small rebellions. There's no point to having a 1/4 FL rebellion or even smaller, since you can just crush it easily without any problems.

That was actually my point. The game lacks the internal mechanics for historical rebellions (e.g. meaningful rebelling army units would require those units to already have an allegiance or self interest before the rebellion), so we have to make do with militarily threatenig rebellions.
 

dnlnn

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It's very easy to make the numbers fine. The revolt size should be equal to the forcelimits given by the provinces which have unrest for that particular rebelion, end of story. You annex 20 provinces from X country. Expect getting a large rebelion. Some opm shit hole country got annexed. Well too bad so sad, small rebelion.
 

Beagá

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I like the new system

Me too. People didn´t care at keeping Stab high, now they should.

And again: it´s probably WAD that you shouldn´t decrease autonomy everywhere, all the time, but THINK.

Also OP explictly complained about a VERY specific kind of rebel, the heretics (Lollards in his case), which indeed are too frequent. In my Poland game I had the same problem.
 

Ranjid

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Me too. People didn´t care at keeping Stab high, now they should.

And again: it´s probably WAD that you shouldn´t decrease autonomy everywhere, all the time, but THINK.

Also OP explictly complained about a VERY specific kind of rebel, the heretics (Lollards in his case), which indeed are too frequent. In my Poland game I had the same problem.

Oh well, you actually can decrease autonomy without thinking. Just pick Humanism and you're good to go. Imho Humanism deserves a huge nerf. It's just way too powerful with AoW mechanics.
 

omega20056

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Rebels have no morale though, they are literally the dregs of society, lower than even peasants.
 

Beagá

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Oh well, you actually can decrease autonomy without thinking. Just pick Humanism and you're good to go. Imho Humanism deserves a huge nerf. It's just way too powerful with AoW mechanics.

Well, a predictable consequence of major changes is balance breaking.

Rebels have no morale though, they are literally the dregs of society, lower than even peasants.

Hahaha

No.

They sometimes would be BETTER than the government´s army and more motivated. That entirely depends on rebel type.
 

Doeko

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The problem is one of threat. Remember that say, Sweden has at least a couple *successful* revolts in the game's timeframe. England likewise. France is more arguably. (apart from the Revolution there's also the settlement ending the Wars of Religion, but that one is admittedly questionable)

This right here. Some rebels are meant to succeed. That you fail to stomp one revolt and have to accept its demands, does not mean game over.

That you, as a ruler, could crush all revolts and not ever have to worry about accepting anything (like in 1.7), is completely unrealistic. At least now you have a decent way to sacrifice somethnig short-term to prevent large losses long-term.

The AI could be better equipped to deal with Rebels though, by making it more likely to accept demands if it isn't going to win.
 

Lama43

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As I and a lot of others mentioned in the other thread, the new rebel mechanics are great. They are just too unbalanced. Making rebellions a little bit smaller and a lot weaker should do it (stuff like only infantry with 25% less discipline).
 

Big Blue Blob

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How can people like rebels as they are? I saw over 40,000 Lollards rampaging around England in my last game, including thousands of cavalry. How is that remotely feasible in the 1460s? Because Paradox cannot be arsed to model rebels properly, they make up by spawning them in preposterous numbers. Here are a few suggestions:

Make the starting rebel stacks smaller and worse equipped, with less cavalry. Most rebellions failed.

But...

Add army defections if the rebels are well supported. When rebellions succeed, it is often because at least some troops defect to their side. Rather than a "national manpower pool" as we have now, which did not really exist in most of the EU4 time period, each province has its own manpower level and available troops and regiments to recruit, often as levies in the early game (why on earth can I recruit my entire army in the Americas when almost all my manpower is in France?). If, for example, a Persian nationalist revolt breaks out in Timurids, units recruited in Persia will very likely join the rebels. Local nobles will become rebel leaders and generals.
Allow rebels to pursue asymmetrical warfare against occupying armies (the Spanish against Napoleon was a good example of this in the EU4 time period).
Allow peace to be negotiated with rebels like it is with other nations, offering amnesties to losing rebels to persuade them to surrender, or granting them concessions.
 

saegoto

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How many threads did we see about how uselessly broken England was? Seriously.

I bought Art of War hoping to see some nice changes.

Long ago, I stopped playing vanilla because I was just simply tired of the shenanigans. Since VeF is still unavailable, I took my chances with playing vanilla again.

Ugh. Made me wish I hadn't given Paradox more of my money.

By 1454

1st Largest Army in Europe: Austria, 48,000
2nd Largest Army in Europe: Lolllard Revolt, 47,000

This is after England has already destroyed Lollard stacks of 14,000, 10,000, and 13,000, and possibly more before I allied them. I tag-switched to England and they are on the dregs of manpower. It's going to get uglier yet.

Historically, the Lollards would have considered themselves lucky to have gotten 1,000 troops together at one time.

How on earth can Paradox justify taking a religious minority that militarily would never have even warranted putting a single regiment on the map, and give them an army rivaling the largest in Europe?

Why not just put stacks of Nazi Aztecs in London? They have the same basis in reality.

^Yes, that's hyperbole for anyone with a slight humor impairment.

The game still feels broken.

Fix please.

if all rebels would have 10% stacks of your army then game is broken! ofc these rebels are abstract number.
 
Last edited:

WeissRaben

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The problem is threefold. First of all, at least in the early game, manpower should be a lesser factor, in how many troops you field. Money should make the world go around, and smallish - but rich - nations should be able to field armies the size of bigger, poorer neighbours. This would change with time, of course, but out of tiny city-states (like the Imperial Cities), everyone should be able to put 10-15k men on the field...if they have the money to pay for them. This would make so that smaller revolts are more dangerous. Then - and this is not PDS's fault, really - battles should be as a whole less random, BUT the occasional bouts of good/bad luck should REALLY change how a battle ends. A flank leader takes an arrow to the knee, falls from the horse and is trampled to death; the whole flank panics and collapses, the much smaller enemy army enters the gap and destroys the center. But they won't do this, because the screams would be heard from Mars. Lastly - and this IS PDS's fault - revolts are much more than an army popping up. The least dangerous - peasant rebellion - means making a big stretch of land empty of farmers, artisans and so on, damaging your economy; noble rebellions come with their share of attempted assassinations, palace intrigues, armies defecting and yes, their manors being disorganized and in ruin by the war's end. Rebellions should be way more dangerous that they are now, in the long term; but, as long as PDS insists that internal politics are useless, you get the Lollards having the second biggest army in Europe.
 

Aries666

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The OP has a good point. Event rebels using the new rebel mechanics can result in massive rebellions. The lollards are supposed to spawn in multiple provinces and each stack will be 50-100% FL. Given that the event is random and no amount of good play can avoid them its harsh. I have no problem with large normal rebellions because their spawning is mostly down to mismanagement but event rebels should probably have scripted numbers and not use the rebels mechanics.