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rbc1989

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Is there anyway it can be patched so new courtiers stop automatically spawning after a certain number of years? Like say 100 years in? There should be more than enough courtiers by then. I feel like this would really help with the lag later on so every time someone conquers an area and puts a new lord in power he won't spawn a bunch of new courtiers but instead will take some courtiers from other lords in the realm?
 
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Zohtun

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And what happens 100 years later when all the courtiers are dead?
 
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thisistherevolt

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And what happens 100 years later when all the courtiers are dead?
Peace and quiet? The ability to say " I got those damn kids off my lawn." Seriously though, something limiting the useless amounts of courtiers in mid game and beyond would be great. Once a player controlled realm has more than 10 to 15 counts or higher as vassals, the only courtiers you need are the ones you deliberately hire. Hell the events in game about taking in random widowed women with kids or random Jews showing up is usually enough.
 
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Zohtun

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Peace and quiet? The ability to say " I got those damn kids off my lawn." Seriously though, something limiting the useless amounts of courtiers in mid game and beyond would be great. Once a player controlled realm has more than 10 to 15 counts or higher as vassals, the only courtiers you need are the ones you deliberately hire. Hell the events in game about taking in random widowed women with kids or random Jews showing up is usually enough.
I agree on "limiting" but I've found that when you've just taken a piece of land in a holy war, it's nice to be able to grab random courtiers from your vassals and whatnot to fill in the barons and dukes. If I have to spend 10% of my treasury (via "Invite noble") every time I want a count, I will not be a happy ruler. And don't say "use invite holy man" we all know that's gamey and likely to be fixed at some point in the future if we ever start depending on it to spawn courtiers (also I saw the consequences of that when I played with a mod which made all holy men of my religion the same dynasty, so giving them land which wasn't specifically theocratic or republic pretty much meant creating Karling 2.0)
 
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I agree on "limiting" but I've found that when you've just taken a piece of land in a holy war, it's nice to be able to grab random courtiers from your vassals and whatnot to fill in the barons and dukes. If I have to spend 10% of my treasury (via "Invite noble") every time I want a count, I will not be a happy ruler. And don't say "use invite holy man" we all know that's gamey and likely to be fixed at some point in the future if we ever start depending on it to spawn courtiers (also I saw the consequences of that when I played with a mod which made all holy men of my religion the same dynasty, so giving them land which wasn't specifically theocratic or republic pretty much meant creating Karling 2.0)

"Invite to Court" is a good one. I use it all the time instead of spending gold or prestige.
 

Zohtun

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"Invite to Court" is a good one. I use it all the time instead of spending gold or prestige.
Allow me to simply point out that your solution to "there's no courtiers in the world" is "Somehow find a courtier (which won't exist because they're not spawning)" and invite him to your court. Without the female courtiers, there'll be less bastards, so there'll be less children. A ruler will have only a modest number of kids, you'll soon deplete that finite number of invites in a single holy war (Without even trying to look at the difficulty of installing rulers after a great holy war!).

So yeah, your solution is impractical after the change. If you say you do that now, then good for you, so do I. We're talking about a hypothetical where this change is implemented, so we need to discuss the issues therein (and solutions to those problems).
 
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If the courtiers would get married and have children, we would not need to spawn new ones.
But they don't. Except through the elope event, they don't marry each other. They cannot. They don't even have the option to ask their liege. So unless the player is being a matchmaker, you'll never see courtiers married or having kids with other courtiers.
 

Azarias59

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But they don't. Except through the elope event, they don't marry each other. They cannot. They don't even have the option to ask their liege. So unless the player is being a matchmaker, you'll never see courtiers married or having kids with other courtiers.
Should be remedied. A bi-yearly pulse event for royal courts would be a good start; if we can ensure that it will stop courtier generation.
 

Zohtun

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Should be remedied. A bi-yearly pulse event for royal courts would be a good start; if we can ensure that it will stop courtier generation.
I'm guessing you mean new random courtiers, not kids, cus otherwise that'd be counterproductive to the whole point of them marrying :p

Personally I feel that things would be better resolved with a simple cap on courtiers. If you have more than x many in your court (with the cap rising with rank) then you don't spawn any more and the MTTH for new-courtier events increases. Once the courtiers die off, then things resume normal until cap is hit. Repeat indefinitely.
 

Azarias59

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I'm guessing you mean new random courtiers, not kids, cus otherwise that'd be counterproductive to the whole point of them marrying :p

Personally I feel that things would be better resolved with a simple cap on courtiers. If you have more than x many in your court (with the cap rising with rank) then you don't spawn any more and the MTTH for new-courtier events increases. Once the courtiers die off, then things resume normal until cap is hit. Repeat indefinitely.

oh, I should have clarified.

5 times a decade, an event will fire that *marries* courtiers.
 

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I agree on "limiting" but I've found that when you've just taken a piece of land in a holy war, it's nice to be able to grab random courtiers from your vassals and whatnot to fill in the barons and dukes. If I have to spend 10% of my treasury (via "Invite noble") every time I want a count, I will not be a happy ruler. And don't say "use invite holy man" we all know that's gamey and likely to be fixed at some point in the future if we ever start depending on it to spawn courtiers (also I saw the consequences of that when I played with a mod which made all holy men of my religion the same dynasty, so giving them land which wasn't specifically theocratic or republic pretty much meant creating Karling 2.0)

Perhaps there shouldn't only be the option to invite to your court, but also grant barony, county or maybe duchy (not too sure about the latter) for courtiers from your culture, which belong to your culture (group?), but have a different liege or live in a different realm. Those courtiers shouldn't want to join your court, but should be very interested to become a baron (or higher).

As for the cap, perhaps the family (well wife and children) of the ruler should not count for the cap (or have a lower weight).
 
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Perhaps there shouldn't only be the option to invite to your court, but also grant barony, county or maybe duchy (not too sure about the latter) for courtiers from your culture, which belong to your culture (group?), but have a different liege or live in a different realm. Those courtiers shouldn't want to join your court, but should be very interested to become a baron (or higher).

As for the cap, perhaps the family (well wife and children) of the ruler should not count for the cap (or have a lower weight).
A "Come be my vassal" option? Hmm, yeah that could work quite nicely.

Doesn't solve the issue of there not being enough courtiers to go around, but combined with the suggestion to have courtiers marry one-another it could provide a solution. Unless you decide to play as some obscure culture or a culture in the wrong date (Eg: Ruler designed Lombard in a post-Charlemagne game) the game would be quite playable.
 
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Anonymous01

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Doesn't solve the issue of there not being enough courtiers to go around,

Invite to court, matrilineal marriages, hire a courtier, eunuch and Jewish events, pregnancy, and managing your family's marriages all together provide more than enough courtiers.

These lowborn characters serve absolutely no purpose ingame. Not even in the first 100 years, though OP's suggestion would definitely be an enormous improvement.

My preferred fix is what they've done with hordes in 2.4: every khan has a random number of family members. This should be expanded to all landed characters (perhaps excluding barons). At every bookmark, give every male ruler 5 male cousins to fill the council and one sister, 1st cousin, or niece to marry away as discussed in this thread.

Regarding holy wars: if you successfully holy war an area so large that you don't have enough characters to hold the new titles, then how did you win the war in the first place? It's unlikely in CK2 that small countries are conquering in one war areas large enough to run out of nobles.

Also I want to ask you something: How many years do you usually play before starting a new game? And what is your play style? Warring, blobbing, world conquest, roleplaying, dynasty management, or etc?
 

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I agree on "limiting" but I've found that when you've just taken a piece of land in a holy war, it's nice to be able to grab random courtiers from your vassals and whatnot to fill in the barons and dukes. If I have to spend 10% of my treasury (via "Invite noble") every time I want a count, I will not be a happy ruler.
You are aware there is a button on secondary holdings to create "locally" a new vassal out of nowhere, and that it is free to use?
If there is a secondary castle on a county, or if you don't mind creating theocracies/republics, you can create a baron-tiers vassal then grant him the corresponding county and/or duchy. Alternatively, you can create just 1 vassal and grant him the duchy with "include lower titles" checked, and let him handle the hassle of finding lots of vassals.

But coming back to the main topic of (not generating courtier to) improve performance: as far as I can tell, on my medium-high computer, only saves take noticeable time, so it's only a problem in Ironman because of the periodic autosaves. Do we really need to reduce the number of courtiers? Is it really a big factor on performance?

I do agree, though, that the current system is a bit strange. Why generate so many random courtiers instead of letting the existing ones marry, or making the existing ones ask their liege to arrange marriage for them?
 
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Anonymous01

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But coming back to the main topic of (not generating courtier to) improve performance: as far as I can tell, on my medium-high computer, only saves take noticeable time, so it's only a problem in Ironman because of the periodic autosaves. Do we really need to reduce the number of courtiers? Is it really a big factor on performance?

I do agree, though, that the current system is a bit strange. Why generate so many random courtiers instead of letting the existing ones marry, or making the existing ones ask their liege to arrange marriage for them?

The thing is, there are many more lowborn courtiers in ck2 than there are landed families, at least at game start. If you play outside west Europe, you'll notice most characters on the map have no family (except the heirs who were added back in 2.0 or so). For every count/duke/king/emperor, Paradox spawns 4 lowborn men + 1 man with a random dynasty in addition to 1-4 maidens (depending on the character's religion). That means at game start, a count, duke, or even king or emperor with no family will have as many as ten random people at court (it totals nearly 9,000 of these lowborn characters at all times the game is running). So a large ratio like 10 to 1 certainly affects performance -- paradox effectively conceded as much when in the 2.4 patch they reduced events for unlanded courtiers from once per day to once every 20 days: this was a major element of their 2.4 optimization efforts.

But besides performance, a 10 to 1 ratio of anonymous, history-less characters vs real characters in a game about characters, relationships, and history is just plain weird. It is jarring to the mood of the game, distracts, and disrupts suspension of disbelief. Above I asked Zohtun how long s/he plays each save. Anyone who plays this game more than a couple centuries knows CK2 doesn't really get good until dynasties have grown large and resultant dynastic politics become as complex as the families are large. Paradox coders designed the game as a constant race to the prize: each character is programmed to constantly suss out ways to improve their rank and prestige. This is why you'll find the wife of the third son of the baron of nowhere murdering her newborn niece: because that wife is programmed to improve her station by getting her husband and sons as close to the baron title as possible. When such relationships and the proximity to titles that come with them are absent however, the trigger for the game's dynastic intrigue engine is absent: in other words, no family equals no intrigue. So these random characters are sitting around bulging the game at as much as 10 to 1 and yet they can't even participate except marginally on the off chance a seduction focus noble decides to get them pregnant.

So yes there is a performance concern here on the one hand, but on the other there's the issue that these characters just have no place in the game. They serve absolutely no purpose and go further to significantly distract and disrupt the game's purpose and it's main features.

Lowborn courtiers are just a poorly-thought through holdover from CK1. Whoever originally conceived CK thought to themselves, 'there should courts and councils for palace intrigue.' But since all the intrigue is tied to dynasties and landed titles, these courtiers are just deadwood. The designer also included them as a crutch at game start so players wouldn't have to scrounge for a wife and councillors. But as several writers have said here, there is no difficulty finding wives or councillors in this game. And more, the game actually penalizes the player for marrying these lowborn characters. So they can't even effectively fulfill the one role they are designed to.

Finally, it's particularly galling that paradox includes these deadwood characters at exponential levels while disallowing the playability of barons and inland mayors (not to mention disabling their title histories) ostensibly for performance reasons. So again, these lowborn courtiers are just poorly conceived and have been left in the game only due to habit. They should be removed.
 
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The thing is, there are many more lowborn courtiers in ck2 than there are landed families, at least at game start. If you play outside west Europe, you'll notice most characters on the map have no family (except the heirs who were added back in 2.0 or so). For every count/duke/king/emperor, Paradox spawns 4 lowborn men + 1 man with a random dynasty in addition to 1-4 maidens (depending on the character's religion). That means at game start, a count, duke, or even king or emperor with no family will have as many as ten random people at court (it totals nearly 9,000 of these lowborn characters at all times the game is running). So a large ratio like 10 to 1 certainly affects performance -- paradox effectively conceded as much when in the 2.4 patch they reduced events for unlanded courtiers from once per day to once every 20 days: this was a major element of their 2.4 optimization efforts.

But besides performance, a 10 to 1 ratio of anonymous, history-less characters vs real characters in a game about characters, relationships, and history is just plain weird. It is jarring to the mood of the game, distracts, and disrupts suspension of disbelief. Above I asked Zohtun how long s/he plays each save. Anyone who plays this game more than a couple centuries knows CK2 doesn't really get good until dynasties have grown large and resultant dynastic politics become as complex as the families are large. Paradox coders designed the game as a constant race to the prize: each character is programmed to constantly suss out ways to improve their rank and prestige. This is why you'll find the wife of the third son of the baron of nowhere murdering her newborn niece: because that wife is programmed to improve her station by getting her husband and sons as close to the baron title as possible. When such relationships and the proximity to titles that come with them are absent however, the trigger for the game's dynastic intrigue engine is absent: in other words, no family equals no intrigue. So these random characters are sitting around bulging the game at as much as 10 to 1 and yet they can't even participate except marginally on the off chance a seduction focus noble decides to get them pregnant.

So yes there is a performance concern here on the one hand, but on the other there's the issue that these characters just have no place in the game. They serve absolutely no purpose and go further to significantly distract and disrupt the game's purpose and it's main features.

Lowborn courtiers are just a poorly-thought through holdover from CK1. Whoever originally conceived CK thought to themselves, 'there should courts and councils for palace intrigue.' But since all the intrigue is tied to dynasties and landed titles, these courtiers are just deadwood. The designer also included them as a crutch at game start so players wouldn't have to scrounge for a wife and councillors. But as several writers have said here, there is no difficulty finding wives or councillors in this game. And more, the game actually penalizes the player for marrying these lowborn characters. So they can't even effectively fulfill the one role they are designed to.

Finally, it's particularly galling that paradox includes these deadwood characters at exponential levels while disallowing the playability of barons and inland mayors (not to mention disabling their title histories) ostensibly for performance reasons. So again, these lowborn courtiers are just poorly conceived and have been left in the game only due to habit. They should be removed.

I agree, auto spawned courtiers should be dropped, leaving in the option's current in place to hire a good courtier if needed or a debutant/spouse for the player via the decisions menu. alterations could and should be made to the AI and events so that most courtiers don't do much at all.

Might to be the best so solution but a lot of the lag has got to be from the game processing millions of events for the tens of thousands of useless courtiers pissing about in courts doing nothing but scheming or seducing. If their displaced nobles in exile that's one thing (but sensible restrictions on them still make sense) but having a bunch of lesser nobility/commer lowborns everywhere is annoying and redundant!
 
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The thing is, there are many more lowborn courtiers in ck2 than there are landed families, at least at game start. If you play outside west Europe, you'll notice most characters on the map have no family (except the heirs who were added back in 2.0 or so). For every count/duke/king/emperor, Paradox spawns 4 lowborn men + 1 man with a random dynasty in addition to 1-4 maidens (depending on the character's religion). That means at game start, a count, duke, or even king or emperor with no family will have as many as ten random people at court (it totals nearly 9,000 of these lowborn characters at all times the game is running). So a large ratio like 10 to 1 certainly affects performance -- paradox effectively conceded as much when in the 2.4 patch they reduced events for unlanded courtiers from once per day to once every 20 days: this was a major element of their 2.4 optimization efforts.

But besides performance, a 10 to 1 ratio of anonymous, history-less characters vs real characters in a game about characters, relationships, and history is just plain weird. It is jarring to the mood of the game, distracts, and disrupts suspension of disbelief. Above I asked Zohtun how long s/he plays each save. Anyone who plays this game more than a couple centuries knows CK2 doesn't really get good until dynasties have grown large and resultant dynastic politics become as complex as the families are large. Paradox coders designed the game as a constant race to the prize: each character is programmed to constantly suss out ways to improve their rank and prestige. This is why you'll find the wife of the third son of the baron of nowhere murdering her newborn niece: because that wife is programmed to improve her station by getting her husband and sons as close to the baron title as possible. When such relationships and the proximity to titles that come with them are absent however, the trigger for the game's dynastic intrigue engine is absent: in other words, no family equals no intrigue. So these random characters are sitting around bulging the game at as much as 10 to 1 and yet they can't even participate except marginally on the off chance a seduction focus noble decides to get them pregnant.

So yes there is a performance concern here on the one hand, but on the other there's the issue that these characters just have no place in the game. They serve absolutely no purpose and go further to significantly distract and disrupt the game's purpose and it's main features.

Lowborn courtiers are just a poorly-thought through holdover from CK1. Whoever originally conceived CK thought to themselves, 'there should courts and councils for palace intrigue.' But since all the intrigue is tied to dynasties and landed titles, these courtiers are just deadwood. The designer also included them as a crutch at game start so players wouldn't have to scrounge for a wife and councillors. But as several writers have said here, there is no difficulty finding wives or councillors in this game. And more, the game actually penalizes the player for marrying these lowborn characters. So they can't even effectively fulfill the one role they are designed to.

Finally, it's particularly galling that paradox includes these deadwood characters at exponential levels while disallowing the playability of barons and inland mayors (not to mention disabling their title histories) ostensibly for performance reasons. So again, these lowborn courtiers are just poorly conceived and have been left in the game only due to habit. They should be removed.

We *do* need a 10-1 ratio of *living* characters between title holders and their courts, if we want living courts. I agree that the current system is strange of generating new random courtiers out of nowhere, instead of letting courtiers live, marry, and reproduce organically. I *also* agree that the current system, by killing and re-spawning random courtiers at every succession is polluting the list of DEAD people. But sorry, we will always have this 10-to-1 ratio you are complaining about... I'll be glad if they are not random anymore at some point, but they'll be just as numerous.
 

Anonymous01

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We *do* need a 10-1 ratio of *living* characters between title holders and their courts, if we want living courts. I agree that the current system is strange of generating new random courtiers out of nowhere, instead of letting courtiers live, marry, and reproduce organically. I *also* agree that the current system, by killing and re-spawning random courtiers at every succession is polluting the list of DEAD people. But sorry, we will always have this 10-to-1 ratio you are complaining about... I'll be glad if they are not random anymore at some point, but they'll be just as numerous.

Yes I agree, the game needs courtiers and I agree that they should be an organic part of the game and enter via the pregnancy system so they're part of the game's story, not random disruptions and question marks. There won't be a shortage of courtiers without the lowborns. Courtiers will be less numerous but not problematically so. But save files will be noticeably smaller.
 

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Is there anyway it can be patched so new courtiers stop automatically spawning after a certain number of years? Like say 100 years in? There should be more than enough courtiers by then. I feel like this would really help with the lag later on so every time someone conquers an area and puts a new lord in power he won't spawn a bunch of new courtiers but instead will take some courtiers from other lords in the realm?


In my games I'm always in need of courtier. Would be very weird if they will die out in 100 years... Unreasonable suggestion in my eyes. If to suggest that there will be some story behind them other than just popping out (and I mean different stories not one from "friend from Hindustan") - that's more like interesting suggestion to me.