Stop reinforcements from cheating

[Jonathan8883]

I'm glad my kids weren't around to hear me cussing.
How is it that a lance of mechs can get dropped off in line of sight by a dropship and then act, all before I get to do anything?

Dropping a heavy lance behind my assault lance and coring an Atlas, killing a 10/10/10/9 pilot, all without me having the chance to respond? That's un-fun cheating.

 

[Jonathan8883]

I have a feeling that reinforcement locations are pre-defined, and that there's only one per map...so if I'm smart and take a side route instead of going straight in like an idiot, I get a heavy lance dropped behind my back.

It just defies logic to have reinforcements have time to land, unload, and then start shooting before I even get to turn my lance around. Give them a 1 round "guarded" status before they act - or have two or three possible drop points that put them not in LOS to the player.... something.

Do you know how hard it is to find a freaking Atlas? I have had two, ever, both in this game. I have only seen one, ever, in any of my other completed campaigns. If it was a Banshee or a Thunderbolt I wouldn't mind so much - they're like tribbles, freaking everywhere.

 

[mjbroekman]

There seem to be predefined zones on the map where, when you travel through them, cause the activation of the additional forces.

I had a mission where normally I head straight forward and get a warning from Captain Obvious about being a prime spot for an ambush. One time, I looked at where the secondary objective markers were and headed up the side of the playable area towards one of them. No warning from XO ... and they never activated. They stood still and never fired back at me.

On maps where you don't have all the secondary markers at the beginning of the mission it's harder to avoid that trigger, but I'm almost certain it's there. Either as map data or opfor data (kill X turrets, reinforcements show up). And I would bet that the spawn location is also fixed.

 

[Donvale]

It has certainly been discussed before and it would be really nice if there was some programatic logic around re-enforcements.
For example re-enforcements could have to possible locations each time and it could simply pick the one furthest for a player or allied unit, simple logic like that would probably solve 90% of the crazy instances.
I have had similar instances where enemies appear literally in the middle of my lance and because they were lights and I was mediums they all moved first, it didn't end too badly, but it certainly didn't feel right, especially as I was positioned where I was because it was the obvious best tactical approach to the base I was attacking.

 

[Yeach]

i agree.
Reinforcement should lose a round or at least have their initiative pushed to last.

Not really seeing how a mech should move first by magically appearing outside a dropship or powering up.

 

[eelnicki]

Heartily agree that the reinforcement mechanics are waaaay too simplistic. Having a single fixed reinforcement drop location per map often results in a 'cheater' type ambush the first time you're on a given map.... but when you remember a given map from a previous mission, it quickly becomes a turkey shoot, since you know just where your next victims are going to be. Some of the newer maps do seem to have more random locations for initial enemy units though... just not reinforcements so much. My 2 cents.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

I quite like that the AI can ambush me.

Is it realistic that the "Enemy Gets A Vote?" That the AI can "steal a march" on me?

Yes it is quite authentic, breathing some Big and Stompy LIFE into BATTLETECH's Clausewitzian Fog and Friction of War. :bow:

 

[Jarmo]

At least they landed on a dropship, on some missions they just pop up from nowhere and start firing.
Yeah, needs work. Probably wont be fixed.

 

[GermanPower]

If they are like ODST 1 round of actively deploying should be taken. If they actually have to unload from a ship you would think 2-3 rounds of knowing they are incoming. Its a bit silly to have them just drop in like that. Maybe have them come in from off map if you want the player to be ambushed and punish people who don't scout. The game should be more dynamic in terms of ambushes and engagements.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

If they are like ODST 1 round of actively deploying should be taken. If they actually have to unload from a ship you would think 2-3 rounds of knowing they are incoming. Its a bit silly to have them just drop in like that. Maybe have them come in from off map if you want the player to be ambushed and punish people who don't scout. The game should be more dynamic in terms of ambushes and engagements.

It's not a matter of punishing people.

BATTLETECH ia a Wargame.

The Enemy "Gets a Vote."

The Enemy does the unexpected.

The Enemy "steals a march."

The Enemy can conduct effective Ambushes with inbound Reinforcements.

HBS approximates all this with the abstraction of AI Lances triggering, and appearing at predetermined sites on the map. If this site happens to be within the Rear Arc of the Player, Damage, Death and Losses can result.

Such an abstraction introduces a very much appreciated element of Clausewitzian Fog and Friction of War. In BATTLETECH, a 2 or 3 Turn lead time is an eternity. Granting the AI the ability to immediately employ Reinforcements gives the AI a capability that is quite strong but very situational in nature. The AI is not "dropping a Lance behind the Player." The AI's Reinforcements are triggered and appear on the map at a predetermined location. It is the Player who has inadvertently maneuvered insuch a fashion as to soetimes present their Rear Torso toward these reinforcements.

While HBS might someday refine this abstraction with an animation of a Dropship Insertion of the Reinforcements, or an Underground Facilty (UGF)disgorging these Reinforcements... that would just be stage dressing. I like that the BATTLETECH AI has trhe ability to surprise/ambush/steal a march on me. I hope HBS looks to retain this element of Clausewitzian Fog and Friction of War. :bow:

 

[The Shadowhawke]

Nothing in 30+ years of lore can allow for the suddenly appearing mech lance; your dropship would detect any powered down enemies within proximity to the mission area. The UGF is only plausible in specific scenarios such as the battle for Artru.

Maybe this stuff won't get fixed, but if we're willing to embrace critical AI bugs as 'tactical features and fog of war', then I will embrace the save game and restart mission keys as 'proper intelligence '.

 

[GermanPower]

It's not a matter of punishing people.

BATTLETECH ia a Wargame.

The Enemy "Gets a Vote."

The Enemy does the unexpected.

The Enemy "steals a march."

The Enemy can conduct effective Ambushes with inbound Reinforcements.

HBS approximates all this with the abstraction of AI Lances triggering, and appearing at predetermined sites on the map. If this site happens to be within the Rear Arc of the Player, Damage, Death and Losses can result.

Such an abstraction introduces a very much appreciated element of Clausewitzian Fog and Friction of War. In BATTLETECH, a 2 or 3 Turn lead time is an eternity. Granting the AI the ability to immediately employ Reinforcements gives the AI a capability that is quite strong but very situational in nature. The AI is not "dropping a Lance behind the Player." The AI's Reinforcements are triggered and appear on the map at a predetermined location. It is the Player who has inadvertently maneuvered insuch a fashion as to soetimes present their Rear Torso toward these reinforcements.

While HBS might someday refine this abstraction with an animation of a Dropship Insertion of the Reinforcements, or an Underground Facilty (UGF)disgorging these Reinforcements... that would just be stage dressing. I like that the BATTLETECH AI has trhe ability to surprise/ambush/steal a march on me. I hope HBS looks to retain this element of Clausewitzian Fog and Friction of War. :bow:

Yes it is. When you say something like giving the ai the ability to do something by following along unfair lines you are in face punishing the player for being a player. This is far from intended to be a 4400 elo chess simulator but giving and advantaging the AI in certain ways to make it perform better against players. I'm fine with this as it's the nature of making challenging ai on increasingly complex systems (video games).

However the ways in which this should be done shouldn't feel like randomly getting hosed by a large number of enemy units. You can simulator or bring players into ambushes in different ways. This is a slight issue that just needs polished to fit and make it feel a little less like a perfectly executed ambush from a giant loud ship. Battletech overall as I've played more and more is a good game in desperate need of polishing and addition and some subtraction.

>Pilots shooting at mechs and chilling, one comments "Whats that really loud obnoxious noise in the sky?" another replies "Dunno sounds like its behind us, lets ignore it"
>10 mins later screaming and death as one pilot exclaims "Where did they come from???"

 

[vparez]

How about the clans not detecting ambushing comstar units on Tukayyid? Anyway there are plenty of stories in books where ambushes were happening.
The game springs surprises using the mechanisms it can. Certainly it would be nice to improve these mechanisms but I dont think any of what is said in this thread is game breaking.

 

[Amechwarrior]

How about the clans not detecting ambushing comstar units on Tukayyid? Anyway there are plenty of stories in books where ambushes were happening.
The game springs surprises using the mechanisms it can. Certainly it would be nice to improve these mechanisms but I dont think any of what is said in this thread is game breaking.

I agree with others that if the bad spawns got re-written as ambushes it would mostly fix the problem. Like if they added an animation to spring from hidey-holes or used the DropShip more often it would alleviate the gamey feel of AI just spawning in plain sight on an open field. It wouldn't address the "AI is cheating" or "Mission design is cheating/cheap" as it's still just throwing more units at you from another angle with little warning, but at least it doesn't seem like they magically appeared from nothing.

 

[Confector Tyrannis]

I quite like that the AI can ambush me

This is why I usually escort in a diamond formation, allowing any point of contact to become the spear and the two closest points 'can' flank if i choose, while bring up tail end charlie in a closer defensive position close to the assets.

This is why I routinely ask myself "how could a bogus AI Reinforcement spawn completely mess up my plan right now?"

Identify where you would 'least' like to get complications, plan for something bad happening (always) and never, ever believe you're 'home free'

Do this, and most AI ambush spawns really don't mess you up that much (as i'm still cranky over that one misplaced flanker getting rear-arced by just such a thing) it was one mech, it could have easily been total mission failure.

 

[The Shadowhawke]

Instead of trying to excuse bad AI, we need to fix it.

I've seen properly spawned enemy lances enter from a map edge, but that's the sort of thing should have several turns of warning. The interaction with Darius during most missions suggests he is monitoring the battle live.

Especially with both the Argo and the Leopard, your ships could position to be an eye in the sky.

Modern military satellites could read the newsprint, if a MechWarrior was parked in their mech and reading a paper while waiting for an order to power up and march.

 

[Amechwarrior]

Instead of trying to excuse bad AI, we need to fix it.

I've seen properly spawned enemy lances enter from a map edge, but that's the sort of thing should have several turns of warning. The interaction with Darius during most missions suggests he is monitoring the battle live.

Especially with both the Argo and the Leopard, your ships could position to be an eye in the sky.

Modern military satellites could read the newsprint, if a MechWarrior was parked in their mech and reading a paper while waiting for an order to power up and march.

We don't have any sat assets and likely neither do our employers in this time period and part of the Sphere. Even if they did, we'd not be granted access as we are just some Merc unit hired for a quick job.

As for adding in some lines about reinforcement en route and using the dropship animation more often, yeah that's a nice way to smooth it over so it doesn't seem like they appear out of nowhere.

This isn't really an AI issue. The AI does nothing about spawn points and triggers. This is a mission design problem from trying to not make everything just "Kill all from your firing line" and I agree more could be done.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

This is why I usually escort in a diamond formation, allowing any point of contact to become the spear and the two closest points 'can' flank if i choose, while bring up tail end charlie in a closer defensive position close to the assets.

This is why I routinely ask myself "how could a bogus AI Reinforcement spawn completely mess up my plan right now?"

Identify where you would 'least' like to get complications, plan for something bad happening (always) and never, ever believe you're 'home free'

Do this, and most AI ambush spawns really don't mess you up that much (as i'm still cranky over that one misplaced flanker getting rear-arced by just such a thing) it was one mech, it could have easily been total mission failure.

Excellent point, Good Sir. :bow:

The Diamond formation is a favored formation of mine as well ~ a Scout (Surefooted, Master Tactician) out front, a pair of Gladiators (Surefooted, Coolant Venters) to set a Base of Fire and a Lancer (Breaching Shot, Bulwarker) in Long-Range Indirect or Direct Fire Support bringing up the Rear.



A failing I have (and thus guard against) is that I’m inclined to be too aggressive. Sometimes just in taking down the initial AI Lance, I’ll fight too far above my weight and be forced to cycle near-mortally damaged Mechs to the rear of my force. If reinforcements arrive after this point has been reached in any particular battle, it just may be that it is these near-death Mechs and MechWarriors that are in the direct path of the Enemies first Turn if uncontested fires.

I’ve lost Mechs and MechWarriors in these situations and I’ve learned to always expect the Enemy to be reinforced. And even if they have not yet shown up, if my forces are so very weakened that a single rounds Fire would see CT’s destroyed and MechWarriors dead... I eject at the expense of Mission. Contract be DAMNED. And ensure both the Mechs and MechWarriors live to fight another day. Then I’ll continue the fight, Withdrawing from the Battle if reinforcements do appear, reaping some victories (short a Mech or Twitter) when they do not.

Live and learn.

Play and prepare.

BATTLETECH ROCKS! : )

 

[JibSail]

Hi guys.

Just joined the forums. Glad to be here.

Please bear with my opinions and thoughts on this subject.

-Any game AI is unfair.
I believe a more accurate term for AI in a game is artificial stupidity. You, as the designer/developer need to make your AI pretend that it doesn't know everything.

-Having additional enemies spawn during the battle is good.
It provides additional salvage and creates more close calls, in addition to a small difficulty spike.

-Difficulty in a game is not bad, unless it feels unfair.
Designing around the feeling of unfairness in a game is incredibly hard. You not only need to communicate to the player what is happening at any given point, but you also need to communicate to the player what they did wrong and how not to make the same mistake again.

Long story short, ambushes are good. First turn attacks are good. Communication in the game needs work.

However HBS decides to design around this, any player complaining about something that is "unfair" is something that should be looked at.

 

[Havamal]

Hi guys.

Just joined the forums. Glad to be here.

Welcome.