I apologize if this has been asked before but what are the main differencies between Stony and CORE? I have played Stony quite a lot and think its great. Should I try CORE? Thanks in advance.
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well... I tried them both and I think that CORE is currently better... but this doesn't mean that CORE is really better because this is only my personal opinion
.
You like perfect historical accuracy -> go CORe
you don't care about historical correctness -> go Stony
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You like perfect historical accuracy -> go CORe
you don't care about historical correctness -> go Stony
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Try both and judge for youreself I bet there are pro's and con's in both mods. Its just too personal to be able to generaly say which one plays nicer or is better.
I bet there are pro's and con's in both mods. Its just too personal to be able to generaly say which one plays nicer or is better.Well, I think the main flaw of CORE mod is that they think it's historically accurate cause they put a lot of events in it.
I find it interesting that it's considered more historical and yet, with Germans, you can still easily conquer UK and the war with Soviets is a piece of cake even on hardest difficulty.
As the battle/war is the main part of HOI and SR gives far better historical feeling as you actually struggle vs the Soviet hordes, I'd say that SR is far more historicaly accurate then CORE.
So yeah, great events in CORE, but it's not more historicaly accurate then the SR.
What's better in SR:
Planning and execution of your battle plans must really be flawless as fortifications, hordes of enemy units and improved AI won't give you so much time or room for mistakes as in CORE for example.
Manpower problem for Germany is much more fun and historical in SR then in CORE where you can easily have Efficient Sociopath from the start with no sweat.
Event that makes USSR declare war on you when you invade UK. Unhistorical? Maybe, but it never happened so there is no way to say if it's historical or not and besides it balances out the game pretty nicely.
But, the most important thing is the war against the Soviets. While it's totally "unhistorical" in CORE just like in normal HOI, in SR you get the feeling of overwhelming Soviet numbers allright As this is clearly the most important war for Germany it puts the SR mod light years in front of the CORE mod.
What maybe isn't so good in SR:
Forts of course, but imagine playing vs human opponents and you'll soon drop this complaint.
Russians with super tanks in 1943. I just don't feel good about that, they should really only have adv hvy tanks by that time and super heavies in 1945. However this is more of a HOI problem in general. The tech tree in HOI is messed up completely and should be redone from the scratch not just tweaked here and there like it's been done to this date.
So yeah, if the Germans can have Panthers before the historical WW2 start date, then it should be normal for strong AI to develop the super hvy by 1943 too.
As you can see, I am pretty weak so far in SR complaints department and what I would really look forward to now is a completely new tech tree.
For example, I saw someone mentioning making the Armoured Spearhead doctrine a prerequisite for Mech infantry. Things like that and slowing down the tank research for example, should bring some realism back I hope.
It would be nice to have at least long and short types of same caliber guns and some restrictions in putting them on different kind of tanks, etc.
I beleive you would need to know the battle mechanics too for a project like that to be succesfull and that is probably the problem now, cause I've seen people say only the Paradox knows the real mechanics. Or am I mistaking?
I find it interesting that it's considered more historical and yet, with Germans, you can still easily conquer UK and the war with Soviets is a piece of cake even on hardest difficulty.
As the battle/war is the main part of HOI and SR gives far better historical feeling as you actually struggle vs the Soviet hordes, I'd say that SR is far more historicaly accurate then CORE.
So yeah, great events in CORE, but it's not more historicaly accurate then the SR.
What's better in SR:
Planning and execution of your battle plans must really be flawless as fortifications, hordes of enemy units and improved AI won't give you so much time or room for mistakes as in CORE for example.
Manpower problem for Germany is much more fun and historical in SR then in CORE where you can easily have Efficient Sociopath from the start with no sweat.
Event that makes USSR declare war on you when you invade UK. Unhistorical? Maybe, but it never happened so there is no way to say if it's historical or not and besides it balances out the game pretty nicely.
But, the most important thing is the war against the Soviets. While it's totally "unhistorical" in CORE just like in normal HOI, in SR you get the feeling of overwhelming Soviet numbers allright
As this is clearly the most important war for Germany it puts the SR mod light years in front of the CORE mod.What maybe isn't so good in SR:
Forts of course, but imagine playing vs human opponents and you'll soon drop this complaint.
Russians with super tanks in 1943. I just don't feel good about that, they should really only have adv hvy tanks by that time and super heavies in 1945. However this is more of a HOI problem in general. The tech tree in HOI is messed up completely and should be redone from the scratch not just tweaked here and there like it's been done to this date.
So yeah, if the Germans can have Panthers before the historical WW2 start date, then it should be normal for strong AI to develop the super hvy by 1943 too.
As you can see, I am pretty weak so far in SR complaints department
and what I would really look forward to now is a completely new tech tree.For example, I saw someone mentioning making the Armoured Spearhead doctrine a prerequisite for Mech infantry. Things like that and slowing down the tank research for example, should bring some realism back I hope.
It would be nice to have at least long and short types of same caliber guns and some restrictions in putting them on different kind of tanks, etc.
I beleive you would need to know the battle mechanics too for a project like that to be succesfull and that is probably the problem now, cause I've seen people say only the Paradox knows the real mechanics. Or am I mistaking?
As one of C.O.R.E. participants (in fact Nighty is also one of them
) I probably should not join this discussion. I'm not going to defend C.O.R.E. telling, that it's only early version (after 3 months), needs balacing, better Ai's, etc. It's not the point.Main problem with C.O.R.E is lack of main motif of mod.
Example 1 - someone wants to create great mod for.... Mongolia (for example
). He makes historical reseach, creates perfect OOB, interesting events... all this time leaving rest of the world intact, or moddding it to support good play of his choosen nation. But for all other nations game in best situation the same as in standard HoI, and most of the time worse.Example 2 - someone creates mod from example 1. Then someone adds his mod, but for other nation. And some more. All wants to make great game for their chosen nation, so of course they make their events with two or tree choices assuming, that it will be human player who will choose wisely, not randomly. We get mod for many nations - but AI's of the nations not chosen to play are also facing all the "great events" - and very ofter choose blindly.
We all know what is the name of mod from example 1, and what is the mod from example 2.
To make things clear - I really like Stony Road when it comes to playing Germany. Really - there is a challenge, plenty of interesting events, great playability. But when it comes to playing USSR, UK or (yes!) Communist China or Romania, I choose C.O.R.E.. Even with much better GER background in 0.2 Stony Road is much more fun to play, thanks to realistic difficulty level.
Just remember - not all people play Germany.
I hope no one was offended, but that's what I think.
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Well yeah, I meant Germany, but they are the most fun to play with, even when I tried numerous other nations, they seem to have the most "action" in their hands.
BTW I did look at MKShep tech mod and although it has some great points (the need for upgrade, more supply consumption), it looks very chaotic indeed. For example, you have an IS-3 post war tank, requireing a 120mm mortar(!) tech, then it's not coherent by giving you lots of tech to research which you shouldn't really have available cause of the requirements, etc.
Someone should really do a complete remake of the tech "tree" a task of epic proportions, I know. And it would probably confuse the poor AI which is having a hard time already
BTW I did look at MKShep tech mod and although it has some great points (the need for upgrade, more supply consumption), it looks very chaotic indeed. For example, you have an IS-3 post war tank, requireing a 120mm mortar(!) tech, then it's not coherent by giving you lots of tech to research which you shouldn't really have available cause of the requirements, etc.
Someone should really do a complete remake of the tech "tree" a task of epic proportions, I know. And it would probably confuse the poor AI which is having a hard time already
Originally posted by Snack
Well yeah, I meant Germany, but they are the most fun to play with, even when I tried numerous other nations, they seem to have the most "action" in their hands.
BTW I did look at MKShep tech mod and although it has some great points (the need for upgrade, more supply consumption), it looks very chaotic indeed. For example, you have an IS-3 post war tank, requireing a 120mm mortar(!) tech, then it's not coherent by giving you lots of tech to research which you shouldn't really have available cause of the requirements, etc.
Someone should really do a complete remake of the tech "tree" a task of epic proportions, I know. And it would probably confuse the poor AI which is having a hard time already
I'm sure Stony Road with tank mod will have AI able to deal with new techs. It's hard, but not impossible.
And Germany game is kind of classic, but try UK for change, or even USA - it takes them some time to start real action, but when they join the war...
Similarly you can try defending France or even Poland, conquering China, defending Russia... HoI is more than "Achtung Panzer".
Originally posted by Snack
Well, I think the main flaw of CORE mod is that they think it's historically accurate cause they put a lot of events in it.
I find it interesting that it's considered more historical and yet, with Germans, you can still easily conquer UK and the war with Soviets is a piece of cake even on hardest difficulty.
As the battle/war is the main part of HOI and SR gives far better historical feeling as you actually struggle vs the Soviet hordes, I'd say that SR is far more historicaly accurate then CORE.
So yeah, great events in CORE, but it's not more historicaly accurate then the SR.
What's better in SR:
Planning and execution of your battle plans must really be flawless as fortifications, hordes of enemy units and improved AI won't give you so much time or room for mistakes as in CORE for example.
Manpower problem for Germany is much more fun and historical in SR then in CORE where you can easily have Efficient Sociopath from the start with no sweat.
Event that makes USSR declare war on you when you invade UK. Unhistorical? Maybe, but it never happened so there is no way to say if it's historical or not and besides it balances out the game pretty nicely.
But, the most important thing is the war against the Soviets. While it's totally "unhistorical" in CORE just like in normal HOI, in SR you get the feeling of overwhelming Soviet numbers allright
What maybe isn't so good in SR:
Forts of course, but imagine playing vs human opponents and you'll soon drop this complaint.
Russians with super tanks in 1943. I just don't feel good about that, they should really only have adv hvy tanks by that time and super heavies in 1945. However this is more of a HOI problem in general. The tech tree in HOI is messed up completely and should be redone from the scratch not just tweaked here and there like it's been done to this date.
So yeah, if the Germans can have Panthers before the historical WW2 start date, then it should be normal for strong AI to develop the super hvy by 1943 too.
As you can see, I am pretty weak so far in SR complaints department
For example, I saw someone mentioning making the Armoured Spearhead doctrine a prerequisite for Mech infantry. Things like that and slowing down the tank research for example, should bring some realism back I hope.
It would be nice to have at least long and short types of same caliber guns and some restrictions in putting them on different kind of tanks, etc.
I beleive you would need to know the battle mechanics too for a project like that to be succesfull and that is probably the problem now, cause I've seen people say only the Paradox knows the real mechanics. Or am I mistaking?
Thanks for that post, you made me download the newest StonyRoad(after two months when was last Stony on my computer)!
Nema frke Josipe, ako imas kakvih pitanja mozes ih postaviti i na hr.comp.igre.strategije gdje lagano "lurkam"
Originally posted by Snack
Nema frke Josipe, ako imas kakvih pitanja mozes ih postaviti i na hr.comp.igre.strategije gdje lagano "lurkam"
Na ovim forumima ima svaki dan sve više Hrvata! Ludilo!!
Thanks Snack for your post, I was going to reply on Tuesday but I run out of time. In your post you added part of what I wanted to say, and I guess we should start a thread at some point to show the mod options the community is offering, for the doubtful HOI users. Me as a HOI player, I found out, like others and yourself, that the main defect of the game is the lack of challenge (playing any country). This lack of challenge results in huge historical inaccuracies, most importantly at the global strategic level. Both mods CORE and SRW were created to give us the users more fun (the same for Bolt, Trip and Fed mods to name some), and I am sure it will be unthinkable now a days to play HOI without an added mod (always remembering that without HOI and Paradox policies the mods would not exist either, thanks guys you surely disserved the money). Me myself I use SRW as the backbone of my games as I have to modify less stuff for what I want to achieve. But I also use events from CORE to increasing the fun and give a more historical flavour. I love history and in this particular moment I found the plain SRW more historically accurate than CORE, because of the artificial intelligence. But if you are playing a multiplayer game (having people in opposite alliances) I would think that CORE will be better. This is obviously in this particular moment, it might change with time. What I see is that mods are evolving really fast (it happened to me that I did not have time to fully test a mod version because it was updated already!- Nighty's fault), because they are the work of lots of enthusiastic people, and more importantly these people keep contact with each other, helping, not competing with each other and this could only result in more benefit for the HOI users, as it is a faster way to reach what we all want: an historically accurate second world war challenge.
I find this discussion very interesting altough a statement like they think it's historically accurate cause they put a lot of events in it is a little too judgemental for my taste. No offense taken though just please recognise that the scope of the C.O.R.E. mod is very large and it can't be viewed as a finished product today.
It's made available in beta form so that everybody can try it out and tell the C.O.R.E. team what they think is good or bad. There has been quite a bit of feedback about making it harder for Germany but this obviously has to be balanced with what an AI Germany can handle. The simplest solution would probably be a set-up event or "option pack" (separate install) which specifically caters to those who want more challenge. Comments?
just please recognise that the scope of the C.O.R.E. mod is very large and it can't be viewed as a finished product today. It's made available in beta form so that everybody can try it out and tell the C.O.R.E. team what they think is good or bad. There has been quite a bit of feedback about making it harder for Germany but this obviously has to be balanced with what an AI Germany can handle. The simplest solution would probably be a set-up event or "option pack" (separate install) which specifically caters to those who want more challenge. Comments?
Well, I'd play CORE over original HOI any day, that's for sure. Actually CORE is not so bad to play with other nations then Germany.
BTW I am talking about single player games only. By introducing balance changes for single player games in CORE you might actually hurt the multiplayer balance.
I said that about the historical aspect of the CORE cause everyone keeps talking about how CORE is historical in contrast to SR.
Let me ask you this: why do you find CORE so much more historicaly accurate then SR for example?
BTW I am talking about single player games only. By introducing balance changes for single player games in CORE you might actually hurt the multiplayer balance.
I said that about the historical aspect of the CORE cause everyone keeps talking about how CORE is historical in contrast to SR.
Let me ask you this: why do you find CORE so much more historicaly accurate then SR for example?
Well, it's a good question. IMO, there is no such thing like "historically accurate" game or mod. Why?
Basically, it's the player who makes game historical. If you play Germany you can start war in 1936, and be pretty succesfull. Is it historical? Similarly, you can choose alternative choice in any
critical prewar event and delay war even until half of 1940.
It's also perfectly normal, that some players are not that skilled in HoI system and victory over France (or in most cases, over UK or USSR) takes them much more time. Is it historical?
In test games, we usually use play some tiny nation and just observe, how superpowers driven by AI's fare. It's the only way to make game playable for ANY nation - to ensure, that when comes to AI vs AI, they are close to historical patterns. But human player is unknown factor - most of the time he can be much better than AI, sometimes he is simply not experienced enough and makes a lot of mistakes, sometimes he starts game in very unhistorical fashion...
I hope you understand now, why making mod not focused on particular nation is much more complicated than focused one. Actually, we are facing problems similar to Paradox's problems.
On the other hand, we got some ideas how to improve this - limiting randomness of events, making various level of difficulty for nations players use most of the time... If you got any more ideas, post them - we are really interested in feedback.Ok, but I didn't answer your question. IMO C.O.R.E gives players not historical accuracy, but historical feeling. Lost of historical events creates sort of "background" - player can see that in 1936-1939 happened much more, than just Spanish Civil War and German expansion. I understand why Paradox limited number of events in original game - it's the randomness problem we currently face. But by limiting number of events for most of the countires game is similiar - it's simple "command and conquer". C.O.R.E. is designed to change it. Lot's of players like to play HoI as their home country - but they have feeling that something is wrong, when they don't see important historical event "poping up".
Summary - not historical accuracy, it's probably not possible thanks to "human factor". But historical feel... yes, that's C.O.R.E. Or at least - that's C.O.R.E going to be.
And now we come back to my first point. Basically, you think CORE got more historical feeling then SR cause it has more historical event popups.
As I said before, popups are a nice thing to have around, but as the HOI is all about the great world wide conflict, the most important thing is the conflict itself.
What I am saying is, that modeling the conflict itself to have that historical feeling is far more important then making a lot of historical events poping around the place and that's why IMHO SR is actually far more realistic then the CORE mod, at least for Germany.
It's probably much harder for Nighty to make the proper scenarios for the allies as everyone is playing SR and not WT
If you ask me, there probably should be a separate single player scenario for EVERY major country like Germany, USSR, UK, USA, Japan and maybe even Italy, with AI tweaked to give you maximum realism and challenge.
I think the whole CORE concept is wrong for single player purposes. If you wish to play one country so bad, you shuold make a whole scenario for it and tweak it to the maximum. The player won't see the AI side of the story anyway, so you can basically manipulate the AI countries to hell to give the human player maximum historical feeling, if you know what I mean. It's just like Nighty scenarios...
BTW it's funny to see how Nighy is refraining himself from any comments at all So Nighty, do I get the Stony Road mug or a tshirt for prasing SR so much?
Basically, you think CORE got more historical feeling then SR cause it has more historical event popups.As I said before, popups are a nice thing to have around, but as the HOI is all about the great world wide conflict, the most important thing is the conflict itself.
What I am saying is, that modeling the conflict itself to have that historical feeling is far more important then making a lot of historical events poping around the place and that's why IMHO SR is actually far more realistic then the CORE mod, at least for Germany.
It's probably much harder for Nighty to make the proper scenarios for the allies as everyone is playing SR and not WT
If you ask me, there probably should be a separate single player scenario for EVERY major country like Germany, USSR, UK, USA, Japan and maybe even Italy, with AI tweaked to give you maximum realism and challenge.
I think the whole CORE concept is wrong for single player purposes. If you wish to play one country so bad, you shuold make a whole scenario for it and tweak it to the maximum. The player won't see the AI side of the story anyway, so you can basically manipulate the AI countries to hell to give the human player maximum historical feeling, if you know what I mean. It's just like Nighty scenarios...
BTW it's funny to see how Nighy is refraining himself from any comments at all
So Nighty, do I get the Stony Road mug or a tshirt for prasing SR so much?
And now we come back to my first point - there is no such thing like C.O.R.E concept.
IMO it's main weakness of this project - if you trace CORE discussions you will find out, that it's based on Events (!) Exchange Project, largest mod for EU2.
EEP for EU2 works fine, but only because no one expects EU2 to be still historical after fist century of playing. Also in EU2 there is a lot of factors blocking too ahistorical moves - annexation is hard, there is a lot of rebellions... It helps keeping world close to "history line"
On the other hand, there is no such thing in HoI. AI's don't create "vassals" (puppets), there are no rebellions, and whole idea of game is based on player keeping game historical. I hope you have seen discussions about that how war is not starting in 1939, how "war clock" makes game stupid, how allies got "-60 warentry" (Peter's AAR rule!
)... In vanilla HoI there is almost 40% chance for serious ahistorical game if Germany is controlled by AI!About historical correctness of SR - tell it to the players who could not beat Poland or France.
I have to say it again - there is no such thing like historically correct mod, only historically correct players. If you play Germany, SR, CORE or whatever, you can attack Yugoslavia instead Poland. Or event Italy. Why not? Because you want to recreate historical line of events. Of cousre, you want to improve it too - win battle of Moscow, conquer UK and USA... but generally, you want to "play historically". That's why game looks like "historically correct".Again, you miss playability with history. Why exactly game have to be so hard for USA as for Germany? Is it historically correct?
I have to agree with the idea "one scenario for one country" gives great playability effect. It probably only way to make C.O.R.E. more attractive for "power players". For now C.O.R.E. game is probably as easy as normal HoI, and creating various levels of difficulty is a must.
I would be in heaven, if all the playability in SR was possible to do with tweaking AI's only.
What about events giving units and techs for free, huge bonuses to the productivity, extreme rise of warentry? Ai's in HoI are hopeless - even with max tweaking, AI's alone could not create enough challenge for most of the players. Again, I love to play SR - but as a "power player", not for "history fun".
Originally posted by Snack
BTW it's funny to see how Nighy is refraining himself from any comments at all
It not the competition, you know. SR and CORE are simply too different.
Just my 2p worth
I've dabbled with CORE and enjoyed the "flavour" you get from having so many historical events. This feature can only be A Good Thing.
However, the wargaming itself (from a major country point of view) is still vanilla HoI and therefore unchallenging. Not such a good thing, but not a criticism as providing a stern gaming challenge is not to aim of CORE as I understand it.
The points made by others about the utopia of individually crafted scenarios for countries including events AND game balance adjustments is surely the paradise everyone wants but by definition is the hardest and most time-consuming aim to achieve.
I enjoy the Stony Road Multimod as it stands simply because of the gaming challenge it sets the single player whether you play the Stony game itself as Germany or Italy, the Rising Sun Japanese game (not easy !) or (I assume, it's untried by me) the World Tumbling allied scenario.
There is still a good level of event interaction but the quality and sheer challenge of the gameplay is compulsive.
For example in my most current Stony game as Germany I stayed peaceful until spring 1940 so I could build enough Panzer IV's to form a Poland Spearhead stack and have enough IC to have another batch of tanks in production to attack the low countries by the summer. I know full well that I only have perhaps 2 years at most to complete all my objectives before facing war with the massive and well equipped Soviet horde and I have the stimulating challenge of defeating Poland inside 2 months (so I can free up the units involved), breaking through into central France before the winter, trying to keep the important research tracks moving forward AND trying to keep my allies in a strong position.
Then all I have to do is defeat Russia and sink the entire US navy.
Personally I'd take the challenge over the event content anytime, but a fusion of both would indeed be Utopia
I've dabbled with CORE and enjoyed the "flavour" you get from having so many historical events. This feature can only be A Good Thing.
However, the wargaming itself (from a major country point of view) is still vanilla HoI and therefore unchallenging. Not such a good thing, but not a criticism as providing a stern gaming challenge is not to aim of CORE as I understand it.
The points made by others about the utopia of individually crafted scenarios for countries including events AND game balance adjustments is surely the paradise everyone wants but by definition is the hardest and most time-consuming aim to achieve.
I enjoy the Stony Road Multimod as it stands simply because of the gaming challenge it sets the single player whether you play the Stony game itself as Germany or Italy, the Rising Sun Japanese game (not easy !) or (I assume, it's untried by me) the World Tumbling allied scenario.
There is still a good level of event interaction but the quality and sheer challenge of the gameplay is compulsive.
For example in my most current Stony game as Germany I stayed peaceful until spring 1940 so I could build enough Panzer IV's to form a Poland Spearhead stack and have enough IC to have another batch of tanks in production to attack the low countries by the summer. I know full well that I only have perhaps 2 years at most to complete all my objectives before facing war with the massive and well equipped Soviet horde and I have the stimulating challenge of defeating Poland inside 2 months (so I can free up the units involved), breaking through into central France before the winter, trying to keep the important research tracks moving forward AND trying to keep my allies in a strong position.
Then all I have to do is defeat Russia and sink the entire US navy.
Personally I'd take the challenge over the event content anytime, but a fusion of both would indeed be Utopia