Stone Henge doesn't deserve to be a Wonder and it's in the way of Salisbury Cathedral

[knppel]

Stonehenge is in the way of the blood game collisseum I meant to build in Wiltshire

 

[treb]

Stonehenge is in the way of the blood game collisseum I meant to build in Wiltshire

Blood for the blood god! Stones for the Stonehenge!

 

[BuddyLove]

Did they though?

“But it should be stressed that there is no evidence for Celtic religious observances having been associated with Stonehenge, nor with any similar monument of the second millennium B. C” (Stuart Piggott The Druids. Thames and Hudson: New York, 1975; repr. 1991. 63).

“No stage of the building of Stonehenge is later than about 1200 B.C., and any connection with the Druids, who flourished a thousand years later, is purely conjectural” (Jacquetta Hawkes ed., Atlas of Ancient Archaeology. New York: Barnes and Noble Books, 1994. 33).

My understanding is that the burial sites associated with Stonehenge are all pre-celtic. If there are celtic burials in the viscinity of the structure that doesn't explictly link Stonehenge itself to celtic religious practice.

Sigh. . . You're defaulting back to a 1975 source because more recent evidence doesn't support you, and no one here has suggested thew Druis built stonehenge- they clearly didn't, but now you're relying on sources from a time when that had been the previous (wrong) interpretation, which have since been reinterpreted again.

Read "The Druids and King Arthur" by Robin Melrose-- I can't summarize the book long case he makes here.

 

[Sam_Stone]

This is six pages worth of petty bickering that could have been easily avoided by simply saying that a county should be able to have both a historical wonder and also a constructed wonder. Anyone know if this will be moddable?

 

[BuddyLove]

This is six pages worth of petty bickering that could have been easily avoided by simply saying that a county should be able to have both a historical wonder and also a constructed wonder. Anyone know if this will be moddable?

That wouldn't work because the bickering isn't actually about not being able to build a Cathedral, it's about demanding that other players not have fun because they aren't as good as you are because they enjoy the fantasy elements in a fantasy game.

 

[SigurdStormhand]

I think that you're the one that has made the error of logic here - you are confusing importance to history with "Great Wonder". By your rule places like Strasbourg (where Gutenberg perfected his printing press), Faversham (home of the first gunpowder mill in England) and Herault (site of the first paper mill in Europe) would all be Great Wonders because of their importance to later technological developments. In my book these places might be important or significant, but I don't think any medieval traveler (apart from hermeticists) would have gone out of their way to visit them.

A "Great Wonder" is just that - a Wonder that is great, unusual or out of the ordinary. Some place that fills you with awe (or maybe dread) and which has, or which will soon go down through the ages as a place of high importance. Stonehenge may have been well past its prime (and well before its second prime) but the locals would still have known of it much more than they would have known of the origin site of the Sarum Rites. The same goes for Strasbourg, Faversham or Herault - I'm going to guess that very few people thought to travel to Herault to see the paper mill in operation, but even at the height of the Age of Faith there would still have been people visiting Stonehenge to commune with God/Jesus/nature.

Salisbury Cathedral is pretty blooming awesome (in the literal sense). It too is a Great work, and of this period. Stonehenge has actually been partially reconstructed since the medieval period, so what you see now is actually a bit more impressive then what they saw then.

If you take a look at Salisbury Cathedral you'll see it actually looks quite like the Cathedral "Great Work" at Level 4. That doesn't mean it should qualify as an historical Great Work but it does show that, in game terms, it's extacty what the new content is trying to model. The fact that it was built within the game timeframe just reinforces the point.

This, and everyone saying it had no significance whatsoever, is just straight up not true.

According to Geoffrey of Monmouth Merlin moved Stonehenge to its current location from Ireland at the behest of Ambrosious and Uthor and Constantine III is buried there.

That story isn't true, but it's from the 12th century referencing back to the 6th and illustrative of the fact that people of the erra didn't just Glace at it, go 'huh?' And move along without a second thought.

I covered the Merlin thing - Geoffrey of Monmouth says a lot of things that Ranulph Higden took him to charge for when he wrote the Polychronicon which John Trevisa then complained about in his translation because Higden was sceptical of Arthur and Trevisa was Cornish.

TL;DR - Geoffrey was an "Ancient Aliens" source to some even in his own era and immediately after.

Just build the cathedral one county next to it.

Just build the Hagia Sophia next County over (the Devs have now agreed to add that, btw.)

That wouldn't work because the bickering isn't actually about not being able to build a Cathedral, it's about demanding that other players not have fun because they aren't as good as you are because they enjoy the fantasy elements in a fantasy game.

Now you're just resorting to insulting people who don't agree with you. Nobody here is against having Stonehenge in the game in principle, they're against it blocking a Great Work slot because it doesn't do anything and, really doesn't matter to people in this period the way a stonking great Cathedral does.

What you have described earlier is really deo-Druidism because, in truth, we know very little about what the Druids believed. Robin Melrose is a popular history writer, not an archaeologist - his PhD is in Linguistics. If you have actual evidence of extensive Celtic use then you should be able to cite the excavation where this was found. If you do so I will try to get a copy of the report. If it has been published it should be available to me through my university.

As things stand the Wikipedia article is about as well referenced as an academic article and it mentions nothing of the sort.

 

[treb]

Sigh. . . You're defaulting back to a 1975 source because more recent evidence doesn't support you, and no one here has suggested thew Druis built stonehenge- they clearly didn't, but now you're relying on sources from a time when that had been the previous (wrong) interpretation, which have since been reinterpreted again.

Read "The Druids and King Arthur" by Robin Melrose-- I can't summarize the book long case he makes here.

At least hes citing peer reviewed research to back his claim, not a pop histoy book...

 

[BuddyLove]

Ok, I give up- I get it guys, you'd rather have the 14 thousandth church than a single Stone Henge- thank God the devs don't agree with scolds like you.

 

[Woifee]

Just build the Hagia Sophia next County over (the Devs have now agreed to add that, btw.)

That’s absolutely what I would have done. Because it doesn’t really matter where it stands.

 

[treb]

Ok, I give up- I get it guys, you'd rather have the 14 thousandth church than a single Stone Henge- thank God the devs don't agree with scolds like you.

You know, your not making yourself look very nice when you drop out of a discussion with passive aggressive snark and insults. It just makes you look petty.

 

[BuddyLove]

You know, your not making yourself look very nice when you drop out of a discussion with passive aggressive snark and insults. It just makes you look petty.

I'm going to need to see a peer reviewed paper to prove that point here bud- and your lot started on the insults.

 

[treb]

I'm going to need to see a peer reviewed paper to prove that point here bud- and your lot started on the insults.

Regardless of who started it, biting back by insulting them in return does not convince them your right,

and yes, I have the peer reviewed article :^)

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0022103167900017

 

[Xenrek]

Cant we just agree on a middle ground?

Salisbury was built a couple centuries after the 769 start; so why not have the later bookmarks have Salisbury, the earlier bookmarks have Stonehenge; and for the *very* minor niche of people who insist on playing a "completely historical" 769 full campaign, they can just wait until the devs add the ability to convert/demolish great works in a future patch?

 

[Sam_Stone]

That wouldn't work because the bickering isn't actually about not being able to build a Cathedral, it's about demanding that other players not have fun because they aren't as good as you are because they enjoy the fantasy elements in a fantasy game.

CK2 isn't exactly what I would call a fantasy game, it's a middle ages game with some fantastical elements within it. Including things like stonehenge having prominence that it may not have actually had during the actual middle ages. That said, this is hair-splitting and I do agree with you in general, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Sarog]

Sigh. . . You're defaulting back to a 1975 source because more recent evidence doesn't support you, and no one here has suggested thew Druis built stonehenge- they clearly didn't, but now you're relying on sources from a time when that had been the previous (wrong) interpretation, which have since been reinterpreted again.

Read "The Druids and King Arthur" by Robin Melrose-- I can't summarize the book long case he makes here.

lol, I'm citing the most credible academic sources I, a layman, could find via a google search. I don't actually have a PHD in the subject, and if I did I wouldn't be debating my field on a video game forum.

But wait... I thought I was just a nasty "history scold"? A stuffy academic history scold here to ruin your fun? But now I'm not academic enough for you, because my sources are too old? Which is it?

Telling me I need to buy a $36 book that will win the argument for you isn't an argument. I'm enjoying the conversation (in a sense) but I'm not willing to go to those kinds of lengths to do your side of it for you.

Look my dude I get that you're annoyed by the discussion but there's no need to take it so personally. It's a voluntary conversation, no one's forcing you to partake. You can turn on the game and go have fun at any point. I'm not magically keeping you here, you're doing that to yourself.

 

[Xoatl]

Guys there are stone megaliths from france to ireland. To think some celts somewhere didnt like worshipping in them is incredibly short sighted. This fixation with the forest and stones being unnatural or foreign is a distinction they might not have even been aware of. They buried themselves next to them ffs.

Quick aside should the reformed celtic faith have hierocratic or temporal religious leader titled Merlin or Archdruid?

 

[BuddyLove]

Guys there are stone megaliths from france to ireland. To think some celts somewhere didnt like worshipping in them is incredibly short sighted. This fixation with the forest and stones being unnatural or foreign is a distinction they might not have even been aware of. They buried themselves next to them ffs.

Quick aside should the reformed celtic faith have hierocratic or temporal religious leader titled Merlin or Archdruid?

If I were designing the faith I'd make it autocephalus since the sources seem to say that the big gathering and the head druid in Gaul were separate from those in Britain.

 

[BrokenSky]

That's nice. Your preferences aren't reflective of the medieval mindset though. Stonehenge didn't matter to anyone. Salisbury Cathedral assuredly did.

Counter Counterpoint: The Medieval people aren't the ones playing the game.

But yeah 1 Wonder per province thing does get in the way of stuff..

 

[treb]

Guys there are stone megaliths from france to ireland. To think some celts somewhere didnt like worshipping in them is incredibly short sighted. This fixation with the forest and stones being unnatural or foreign is a distinction they might not have even been aware of. They buried themselves next to them ffs.

Quick aside should the reformed celtic faith have hierocratic or temporal religious leader titled Merlin or Archdruid?

The point isn't weather Celts used henges in worship its that none of the archaeology of the largest, best preserved and most studied shows no evidence they did.

 

[ChaosOnline]

If we're complaining about historical inaccuracies, I'd like to point out that pretty much everything about Buddhism and Hinduism is utterly inaccurate in the game and even goes so far as to be downright offensive so that I (as a Buddhist) personally don't like to play in Asia at all, which is a bit of a shame.

Really? How are they inaccurate? I'm interested in that region, so I'd be curious to know.