Stone Henge doesn't deserve to be a Wonder and it's in the way of Salisbury Cathedral

[Patriarch of Bub]

Absolutely! Some of the people round here treat this game like it's a fantasy game, not a history simulator!

Filthy casuals! The worst one of 'em? Well, I probably shouldn't name names, but there's the one, this "Aotrs Commander" - oh, he don't half get twitching if you spell his screen name as "Ators," the special little snowflake. Shifty bugger, one of those freaks who uses a skeleton avatar instead of a proper historical one like he should. He's has this coming, he has. He thinks his money is as good as ours, can you believe it!

Came swanning in here a few years ago - bought everything on sale, the cheapskate - because he wanted to get a proper run up for world conquest in EUIV (yeah, he's one of THOSE, but he can't even be arsed to get good enough to do it properly, because he doens't want it to be "too difficult") and he'd heard of that Norse to Horse thing. I mean, come on. He was positively over the moon about all the fantasy aspects - Reaper's Due and having immortality, oh, it was painful to watch.

First game (which he's still playing, the casual loser) he play Bazantuium to Restore the Roman Emperor. And he named all the male kids with names ending with -us like in Asterix the Gaul (that's rubbish by-the-by, not at all historically accurate, it's like some kind of parody) and named all the girls after types of Undead; and THEN he named all the bastards he had after the names of his Pokémon! I don't even know what a Pokeman is! It's horrible! Can you imagine what he's going to do in his first game of Imperator? I shudder to think!

Especially as he won't ever play on ironman, the little b... egger. No, he plays everything on easy and save-scams. He doesn't even like too much RNG! And he has the audacity - the AUDACITY to have fun doing that! Not even close to histrocially correct! And he won't sod off and play some other fantasy crap, no matter how much I want him to; no, he whines "but the other games aren't as good as GSGs!" Of course not, you little ratbag, they're fantasy and fantasy players don't deserve to have nice things! He won't even play that one Game of Thrones mod, because - and can you believe this - he doesn't give two craps about Game of Thrones! (I reckon he'd rather watch My Little Pony, gods. He shouldn't be watching cartoons as his age! He's forty this year, for Herodotus' sake!)

He thinks we should all compromise! COMPROMISE! On the INTERNET! As if there's enough room for doing that to strike a middle ground between the history enthusiasts and the people that just want to play a good game and aren't quite as bothered about the history! Unbelievable! Thinks we should "share our toys!" Who does he think he is!

Says he's even interested in history - but he's not even close to an expert like the rest of us! Just some lay pillock! I bet you if you'd ask him this morning, he wouldn't even have remembered Salisbury Catherdral existed if you'd asked him to name seven cathedrals. (He'd probably have mentioned the on in his home town first...) I mean, this one time, I caught him going onto the history boards and actually ask for recommendations for reading up on the history of China! Can you believe it! Didn't know anything about it all, he said! Such a casual! I bet he never lectured his class twice when he was a teenager on military history!

He ought to sod off with his fantasy crap and go play Beyond Earth (he doesn't deserve Alpha Centauri) or something.

He's thinks he's so funny, with his silly British self-deprecating humour, unsufferable prat.



Sorry, got to go, I've just got to go shout at my four-year old nephew for playing with his Transformers toys wrong - he's having a tea party where Optimus Prime and Megatron are best friends. I can't EVEN.

I will never fully understand why the British love self deprecating humour.

Congrats on leading Byzantuium to restoring the borders though

 

[grommile]

I will never fully understand why the British love self deprecating humour.

If you'd lived here for any significant amount of time, you'd understand it perfectly, I assure you

 

[Patriarch of Bub]

If you'd lived here for any significant amount of time, you'd understand it perfectly, I assure you

I assure you that even after 10 years of living there i don't get it

 

[Andrzej I]

Are we positive we can tear Great Works down? Last I heard, it was something the devs wanted to be able to do... but that was the same language used for converting religious Great Works from one religion to another (which is actually mentioned in the same post linked above).

Just to update in regards to my own post above:

Unfortunately not. We should look into allowing them to be removed somehow. For now you would have to rely on mods for it. If you want to do it yourself, you can go into the history file for the province and remove all references to any wonder in there.

Stonehenge does block any sort of Salisbury Cathedral. That being said... oh well? As has been mentioned, mods can remove Stonehenge if it offends that much. Personally, since Salisbury was only built in the early 13th century, and most of the time I play 1066 or earlier, it doesn't bother me that much. My kings of England (should I play there) will just build their grand cathedral elsewhere. Probably Canterbury or York.

 

[Sarog]

but even at the height of the Age of Faith there would still have been people visiting Stonehenge to commune with God/Jesus/nature.

That's just plainly not true. Not for Christians, not even for celtic pagans (who don't even appear in CK2). Is the idea that Stonehenge must have been a site of mystical importance to some unknown sect of theoretical nature worshippers so important to people's romantic illusions that you'll keep insisting so, come-what-may?

According to Geoffrey of Monmouth Merlin moved Stonehenge to its current location from Ireland at the behest of Ambrosious and Uthor and Constantine III is buried there.

Explaining its existence by way of "a wizard did it" is not significance in the sense that's been discussed here. At this point it seems that we're just stuck in circular conversation. I would talk more about other locations' significance to medieval life and thought, or again pose the question of why and how a norman lord would interact with the structure, but I've done that at length.

 

[Woifee]

Just build the cathedral one county next to it.

 

[BuddyLove]

That's just plainly not true. Not for Christians, not even for celtic pagans (who don't even appear in CK2). Is the idea that Stonehenge must have been a site of mystical importance to some unknown sect of theoretical nature worshippers so important to people's romantic illusions that you'll keep insisting so, come-what-may?



Explaining its existence by way of "a wizard did it" is not significance in the sense that's been discussed here. At this point it seems that we're just stuck in circular conversation. I would talk more about other locations' significance to medieval life and thought, or again pose the question of why and how a norman lord would interact with the structure, but I've done that at length.

You say that Stonehenge was not important to pre-Christian Celtic Britain but that is simply NOT true.

Stonehenge was a religious site and there are shaft burials there, including one with strong evidence of human ritual sacrifice and canibalism in the 1st Century.

The area around it has many other Roman era Druidic/Celtic religious sites as well, and we know from the evidence (both archeological and primary sources) that the Celts of the region had priests called Druids, who were influenced by an influx of immigrants from across the rhine, while also themselves influencing Gaul, and that they both influenced and were influenced by Pythagoras with cross-pollination to Zoraster and Hindus from those connections and from the Roman occupation.

We know they followed a lunar calendar, and prcticed astrology, revered mistletoe and oak trees, some of the very specific ways they gathered said mistletoe.

We know their mythology labels them as the descendants of Dis or Dis Pater who is also identified with Cunomaglus the Hound-Lord (and sometimes with Appolo-Cunomaglus).

We know they believed in reincarnation.

We know their chief deity was Mercury/Lugus, and their other deities includes Romerta a kind of unique fertility goddess as well, and a fair deal of other information---

It's not a fantasy/made up religion, and the evidence is strong of it persisting in general practice into the 5th century, as well as continuing as a kind of underworld cult of Cunomaglus beyond that point.

 

[Sarog]

You're... just describing celtic paganism. Which I know existed. I've heard the word "druid" before. But thanks for the overview, I guess?

Is there any archeological evidence tying Stonehenge to any meaningful use by druids? I'm sure they'd have thought it was nifty, given that there are megalithic stones at Anglesey - which actually was a druidic worship site. But nifty does not make a holy site.

And as soon as we start talking about characters who actually appear in a game of CK2... nope, no religious significance for them.

Again this is all stuff that's been discussed. Refer back to some of treb's posts. This is starting to feel like a Merry Go Round of anthropological misconceptions.

 

[BuddyLove]

Yes- Celtic Pagans used Stonehenge as a burial site and a ritual site, as I clearly said.

 

[DPS]

Bringing Hagia Sophia into the discussion doesn't mean much, since I agree that it should be in. If it shouldn't be a wonder, I'm not sure what should be.

Hate to reply to my own post, but according to the latest Dev Diary, Hagia Sophia is now in.

 

[Enriador]

Baxcilly no one plays the historical start dates after 1066 anyway.

And it's a goddamn shame, there are true jewels in the later bookmarks!

 

[Rags17]

:
First game (which he's still playing, the casual loser) he play Bazantuium to Restore the Roman Emperor.
:

I think that you will find that it is spelled "Bazneutronium".

 

[Sarog]

Yes- Celtic Pagans used Stonehenge as a burial site and a ritual site, as I clearly said.

Did they though?

“But it should be stressed that there is no evidence for Celtic religious observances having been associated with Stonehenge, nor with any similar monument of the second millennium B. C” (Stuart Piggott The Druids. Thames and Hudson: New York, 1975; repr. 1991. 63).

“No stage of the building of Stonehenge is later than about 1200 B.C., and any connection with the Druids, who flourished a thousand years later, is purely conjectural” (Jacquetta Hawkes ed., Atlas of Ancient Archaeology. New York: Barnes and Noble Books, 1994. 33).

My understanding is that the burial sites associated with Stonehenge are all pre-celtic. If there are celtic burials in the viscinity of the structure that doesn't explictly link Stonehenge itself to celtic religious practice.

 

[Rags17]

That's just plainly not true. Not for Christians, not even for celtic pagans (who don't even appear in CK2). Is the idea that Stonehenge must have been a site of mystical importance to some unknown sect of theoretical nature worshippers so important to people's romantic illusions that you'll keep insisting so, come-what-may?

Explaining its existence by way of "a wizard did it" is not significance in the sense that's been discussed here. At this point it seems that we're just stuck in circular conversation. I would talk more about other locations' significance to medieval life and thought, or again pose the question of why and how a norman lord would interact with the structure, but I've done that at length.

Just stop for a second.

What we are talking about here are Great Wonders. GREAT WONDERS !

GREAT ! WONDERS !

Stonehenge is a GREAT ! WONDER ! There is no debate here. You can pick and choose and waffle and conditionalize all you want but there is zero (ZERO) doubt in the minds of 99 percent of the world's literate population that Stonehenge is a GREAT ! WONDER !

It just IS.

Salisbury Cathedral ? I had never even HEARD of the "Sarum Rites" until you made me march off to Wikipedia to look it up. Hell, I had barely heard of Salisbury Cathedral. No Wonder there.

Forget the mysticism, forget the "true" purpose of the stone circle, forget anything and everything related to Stonehenge except the bald faced and bleedingly obvious fact that a big circle of giant standing stones was put up well before anyone can remember and is still there ! No one knows who put it there, or when, or why, or if it has any meaning whatsoever. You might even say that people would look at them there and WONDER why they are there. They might even wonder a GREAT deal. That sounds like a GREAT deal of WONDERING if you ask me.

Which is why Stonehenge is without any doubt whatsoever a GREAT ! WONDER !

Q effing, E effing, D.

 

[Sarog]

Stonehenge is a GREAT ! WONDER ! There is no debate here. You can pick and choose and waffle and conditionalize all you want but there is zero (ZERO) doubt in the minds of 99 percent of the world's literate population that Stonehenge is a GREAT ! WONDER !

Gee I dunno. Maybe if it was turned into a mosque it could be really famous. It would look great with some minarets!

 

[Aotrs Commander]

I think that you will find that it is spelled "Bazneutronium".

See! What did I tell you! Filthy casual! Can't even spell Beexanteeum right! Everyone should be able to spell Bozaantiniminum right! What kind of person are we allowing around here who can't even spell Boozantimanitpantyheynonnyno!

Can't even be arsed to check his spelling, sure he'll CLAIM it's always the one time he doesn't double check, but suuuure, who believes that!?

 

[treb]

I will never fully understand why the British love self deprecating humour.

If you cant mock yourself, how the hell to you mock others?

 

[Rags17]

See! What did I tell you! Filthy casual! Can't even spell Beexanteeum right! Everyone should be able to spell Bozaantiniminum right! What kind of person are we allowing around here who can't even spell Boozantimanitpantyheynonnyno!

Can't even be arsed to check his spelling, sure he'll CLAIM it's always the one time he doesn't double check, but suuuure, who believes that!?

In any event you are dead wrong - people in the Muddle Ages never called it "Brosbeforehoestronium", it was always called by its proper name - the NRA. Or more properly just the "Roamin' Umpire", because they used to wander all over the eastern Mare Colostrum calling fouls and taking names.

Silly pheasant.

 

[treb]

Just stop for a second.

What we are talking about here are Great Wonders. GREAT WONDERS !

GREAT ! WONDERS !

Stonehenge is a GREAT ! WONDER ! There is no debate here. You can pick and choose and waffle and conditionalize all you want but there is zero (ZERO) doubt in the minds of 99 percent of the world's literate population that Stonehenge is a GREAT ! WONDER !

It just IS.

Salisbury Cathedral ? I had never even HEARD of the "Sarum Rites" until you made me march off to Wikipedia to look it up. Hell, I had barely heard of Salisbury Cathedral. No Wonder there.

Forget the mysticism, forget the "true" purpose of the stone circle, forget anything and everything related to Stonehenge except the bald faced and bleedingly obvious fact that a big circle of giant standing stones was put up well before anyone can remember and is still there ! No one knows who put it there, or when, or why, or if it has any meaning whatsoever. You might even say that people would look at them there and WONDER why they are there. They might even wonder a GREAT deal. That sounds like a GREAT deal of WONDERING if you ask me.

Which is why Stonehenge is without any doubt whatsoever a GREAT ! WONDER !

Q effing, E effing, D.

But I highly doubt that anyone in the games time frame would see it as anything other than some curiosity probably pagan, not one of the greatest works of mankind. in practical terms we know cathedrals at the time were popular tourist and pilgrimage sites often long predating the cathedral itself. We know the Shrine of St Cuthbert was wildly popular long before the current cathedral so much so that it was considered the most popular shrine in England up until the Thomas Becket Fiasco.

Again I'm not saying I want Salisbury Cathedral over Stonehenge, personally I want it left empty. But that in the context of a medieval rpg/strategy What makes more sense? A lord promoting a Megalithic construct that held no significance other than an odd curiosity or the local cathedral that he could make more money of by exploiting tourists and pilgrims? Not to mention get on God's(the Churches) good side by sponsoring an expansion?

 

[treb]

In any event you are dead wrong - people in the Muddle Ages never called it "Brosbeforehoestronium", it was always called by its proper name - the NRA. Or more properly just the "Roamin' Umpire", because they used to wander all over the eastern Mare Colostrum calling fouls and taking names.

Silly pheasant.

Ackchyually they called it The Imperium of Roman, and if it wasn't for FUCKING DANDALO the entire of Europe would be a roman utopia under the Basileus.

Instead we live in grim darkness of 2k.