Stone Henge doesn't deserve to be a Wonder and it's in the way of Salisbury Cathedral

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treb

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But it existed even in middle ages;

"The earliest example of archaeological work in Britain can, perhaps, be claimed by monks at Glastonbury Abbey in 1194, where the supposed burial place of King Arthur was found during the rebuilding of the great church after a fire (it was most likely the grave of a former Abbott). A more systematic – and less accidental – approach was taken by John Leland, appointed ‘the King’s Antiquary’ by Henry VIII in 1533 and charged with searching England and Wales for antiquities of all kinds."

file:///C:/Users/justin-work/Downloads/9780387094526-c1.pdf

Nonetheless, to us modern gamers, Stonehenge matters as much as Salisbury. To the middle age people, it was less of a history and more of a life. It probably was depends on each one's religion and culture. Paganism was probably, at least somewhat, stronger than what church historians had recorded.

You are misinterpreting archaeology with antiquarianism and in the former case profiteering of popular mytho's In the Glastonbury abbey case it was a publicity stunt. in the latter case antiquarianism was more collecting historical artifacts than trying to understand who used and built them. Antiquarians collected things as curios and conversation pieces, archaeologists want to learn everything they can about how it was built, why how it was used and what can be said about the people and society of the time from it.

Yes pagan beliefs probably did persist longer than we know but the Sarcen stones were erected sometime between the 26th and 24th centuries BC Stonehenge was abandoned sometime around the 19th century BC and the absolute earliest the Celts could have arrived in Britain based on archaeological evidence is the 12th century BC, if you wanted a great wonder for Celtic paganism Anglesea is much much better as it at the least a site of religious importance to the Bythonic Celts.

Add onto that that the genetic data shows a large scale population turnover in Britain not long before Stonehenge was abandoned to the tune that the modern ethnic British people are ALL descended from a common ancestral group of Central Asian origins in the male line and only about 10% of the matrilinial DNA is from the pre turnover population. What ever cultural continuum created Stonehenge was almost completely wiped out and coincides with its abandonment.
 
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Sarog

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Fine- get rid of Stonehenge, but your precious Cathedral can't be built till the late 1200s and only if you have English culture- not Anglo-Saxon or anything else.

And only if you have Catholic religion.

History scolds like you rob the fun of the game

My mistake. Clearly Stonehenge is an excellent place for your Fylkir to summon Cthulu to fight the Power Rangers.

Plus it's an excellent location for a holy site when the devs finally add Reformed Neanderthallism, which still had a thriving community in the caves of Gibraltar.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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Rags17

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Yeah, that's a pity. Medieval people didn't care about those sites. Were they intrigued by them? Sure. They were interesting regional oddities, but not important to the way people lived and thought about the medieval world. Apparently my criticism of these sites in game is upsetting to people, but forget for a moment what you as a modern person think and know about them. Think about what a medieval person would think/know about these sites, and consider the gameplay interactions that could derive from that.
:

A very good point.

However, one of the things that struck me about CK2 is that it is not so much a game about "medieval history", but about a modern person's view of medieval history. This is most obvious in things as mundane as calling the eastern Roman Empire "the "Byzantine Empire" and not ERE or just the "Roman Empire", which is pretty much what EVERYONE In the middle ages called them. More subtly and one of the first things I noticed and loved was the fact that the map colors are highly reminiscent of the colored maps I used to see in old encyclopedias and history books. You know - pink for England, blue for France etc.

This is partly why PDX has seen fit to add things such as devil worshipers, the Hermetic society and Warrior Lodges when in actual fact these things either didn't exist (at least as depicted in game) or were only a pale imitation of their in game counterparts. The idea is to give the players the "feel" for the era and the general impression that they really were living as an 8th or 12th century feudal lord, at least as far as their knowledge of history is concerned. Naturally and by necessity this approach causes conflicts with people who have a better grasp of history than the average RTS gamer - witness the endless threads on the forums about "It's ERE not Byzantium" or "Remove all Supernatural Content" or "Matrilinear marriages were not a thing !".

I think that i have a pretty good understanding of the history of the era but I am more than comfortable with mechanics or "flavor" content that has no real place in a medieval dynasty sim. I generally keep supernatural events on (but ruthlessly burn every witch, heretic and devil worshiper I can find), I keep matrilinear marriages on (but try not to cheese dynasty blobbing) and have been known to occasionally dabble in the Hermetic society or Warrior lodge (although I am still surprised when I find I have to duel my "good friend" from 3,000 km away !).

I think that having readily identifiable Great Wonders on the map will increase CK2's appeal to the wider gaming public (looking at you Total War and Civ players), while also keeping true to the game's core appeals of dynasty management and personal control of events. I have pointed out though that I would be more than happy with the ability to destroy existing monuments for whatever religious, cultural or governmental purposes the player saw fit.

IMHO something like Stonehenge should be a minor oddity that attracts a small but steady stream of half-pagan heretics and lunatics (and thus possibly some minor income and or prestige bonus to the holder, perhaps with a minor piety malus to go with it), but the player should be able to have the option if Zealous and say Arbitrary to tear it down and use the stones to build a new Wonder of their choice.

In fact, this brings up a neat suggestion.

What if every existing Wonder had some set of "destruction preconditions" which could be anything but which in fact would generally narrow down to a small selection of usual motives, say Zealous and Wroth (if the target was a heretical or heathen holy site), Proud and Arbitrary (if the target was a foreign cultural site) and so on. The player would then have the option to tear down the Wonder and use it in the creation of his new one. Major Wonders would of course take longer and cost more to tear down than minor ones, but in return would provide a discount to the creation of the resulting new Wonder, say for 20 years or so, after which the stones, icons etc would all be lost.

Want to tear down the Great Pyramid of Giza and use the stones to build yourself a mighty mausoleum ? Go ahead, but know that it will take 15 years and 1,500 gold, after that you will get a 30% discount on the construction cost of your new Wonder for the next 20 years.

Stonehenge for most, Salisbury for some.
 

jwalche

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jwalche

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Paganism =/= modern neo-paganism.
One could say that there are very few religions that are any similar to what they were a thousand years ago.

Beside, we are talking about a history based but still "Popular, Alternative History, and Commercial Media Content". One major reason that Japanese historical contents got commercially super popular was that they were never hesitant in using historical contents creatively.

If we start criticizing little "flavors" that Paradox uses for that purpose, we are not seeing this as a video game.
 

treb

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This is a game with alternative histories. Beside,

"Thousands Of Pagans Gather At Stonehenge For The Winter Solstice"
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/why-...he-winter-solstice_n_584f38f2e4b04c8e2bb16ead

Neopagans are quite 'different' to be polite to the historical pagan beliefs of Britain and Stonehenge is among the best documented archaeological sites in the world ad after roughly 1950 BC all major activity ceases at the site for the better part of 4000 years with a few sparce burials between then and now if the celts used it as a religious site they did a damn good job of covering it up because we have more roman coins and medieval trinkets from the site then anything Celtic.
 

Evangeline

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If we're complaining about historical inaccuracies, I'd like to point out that pretty much everything about Buddhism and Hinduism is utterly inaccurate in the game and even goes so far as to be downright offensive so that I (as a Buddhist) personally don't like to play in Asia at all, which is a bit of a shame. So when you're complaining about not having a building slot for a particular cathedral in the right place, then compared to how other religions in this game are completely misrepresented and their most sacred figures turned into caricatures, you're complaining on a very high level. For now I'm happy that they're adding wonders to the game, I know that they're just game designers and not professors, and I just accept that not everything is super accurate.
 

Sarog

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One could say that there are very few religions that are any similar to what they were a thousand years ago.

Beside, we are talking about a history based but still "Popular, Alternative History, and Commercial Media Content". One major reason that Japanese historical contents got commercially super popular was that they were never hesitant in using historical contents creatively.

We're not talking about "what if the norse/zoroastrian/zunist religion hadn't died out?" here. Those are implausible scenarios that are at least within the scope of imagination.

For Stonehenge to have religious significance, you would need the resurrection of actual pre Indo-European cavemen. Even for a game with Sunset Invasion, that seems like a stretch.
 

treb

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If we're complaining about historical inaccuracies, I'd like to point out that pretty much everything about Buddhism and Hinduism is utterly inaccurate in the game and even goes so far as to be downright offensive so that I (as a Buddhist) personally don't like to play in Asia at all, which is a bit of a shame. So when you're complaining about not having a building slot for a particular cathedral in the right place, then compared to how other religions in this game are completely misrepresented and their most sacred figures turned into caricatures, you're complaining on a very high level. For now I'm happy that they're adding wonders to the game, I know that they're just game designers and not professors, and I just accept that not everything is super accurate.

trust me, if I had to choose a hill to die on its not Stonehenge and a facetious connection to Celtic paganism,but while the topic is in vogue ill point out how stupid it is.
 

jwalche

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Neopagans are quite 'different' to be polite to the historical pagan beliefs of Britain and Stonehenge is among the best documented archaeological sites in the world ad after roughly 1950 BC all major activity ceases at the site for the better part of 4000 years with a few sparce burials between then and now if the celts used it as a religious site they did a damn good job of covering it up because we have more roman coins and medieval trinkets from the site tan anything Celtic.

But Stonehenge is one of the most well known word relate to Paganism, and the link gives a strong connection for average game buyers who are just starting to have interest in medical history and wants to play great pagan chief unlike what happened in real history.

What modern Celts have done compares pale to what early Christians have done converting old Roman Pagan contents as their own. Let's leave that out of the scope.
 

Evangeline

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I'd like to quote the Dev DIary here: "The rule is that every Great Work that has completed its final stage will be represented by a permanent province modifier in a converted EU4 game. By default we also ignore any historical Great Works that were present at the start of the campaign of CK2 but that rule is easily changed by modifying a value in the defines file before converting."
So Stone Henge will have ZERO effect on your provinces. ZERO religious importance is implied, the province gets no modifier from it. It's just for flavor, nothing else.
 

treb

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We're not talking about "what if the norse/zoroastrian/zunist religion hadn't died out?" here. Those are implausible scenarios that are at least within the scope of imagination.

For Stonehenge to have religious relevence, you would need the resurrection of actual pre Indo-European cavemen. Even for a game with Sunset Invasion, that seems like a stretch.

Sunset invasion is vastly more probable and believable than than a medieval revival of the Henge religion. But I do contest your characterization of them as cavemen, British neolithic culture was surprisingly advanced and urban than it is commonly depicted there are stone built houses and religious sites that were contemporary with Uruk and the neolithic is when Britain as an island is deforested and large scale agriculture is first practiced.
 

treb

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I'd like to quote the Dev DIary here: "The rule is that every Great Work that has completed its final stage will be represented by a permanent province modifier in a converted EU4 game. By default we also ignore any historical Great Works that were present at the start of the campaign of CK2 but that rule is easily changed by modifying a value in the defines file before converting."
So Stone Henge will have ZERO effect on your provinces. ZERO religious importance is implied, the province gets no modifier from it. It's just for flavor, nothing else.

Then a smoldering pile of rocks is very bad flavor... Especially as we know from medieval myths about its construction that many of the stones were still upright and still formed the now famous arches, there are medieval depictions of Merlin directing a giant to stand the bluestones up and lay them across the tops.
 

Sarog

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Sunset invasion is vastly more probable and believable than than a medieval revival of the Henge religion. But I do contest your characterization of them as cavemen, British neolithic culture was surprisingly advanced and urban than it is commonly depicted there are stone built houses and religious sites that were contemporary with Uruk and the neolithic is when Britain as an island is deforested and large scale agriculture is first practiced.

You're correct of course, I'm just being facetious, forgive me. If we're at the point of "alternate histories" as an argument for tying megalithic structures to playable paganism then it's a little difficult for me to maintain solemnity.
 

SigurdStormhand

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I agree that ideally the game would allow for multiple Wonders per province. What, so I can have the Lighthouse of Alexandria but no Library? Why? The Ptolemies were able to do that a millennia ago. With advanced modern technology like not killing each other for five minutes in a row, I'd think my Empire should be able to match the feat of building two things kinda-sorta near each other.

However, if I've gotta pick just one for that county, I'd pick the world famous spooky monument that existed for the entire period in question over a semi-obscure Cathedral that didn't exist at all for the first 75% of the game.

Although I do think ranking it as a level three Wonder the same as the Pyramids is a bit much. Level one or maybe two should be fine.

I have to agree with this.

In addition, the people who don't want Stonehenge there are ignoring the fact that it's one of the most well-known structures in the world, and Salisbury Cathedral isn't. Maybe that wasn't true in 1250, but it certainly is now. I can see an argument for leaving out any structures that were already built at the start of the game, but then you'd be leaving out a lot of structures that people would miss if they aren't there.

Question to both of you - Stonehenge doesn't matter, historically, to this period at all. According to PDX they didn't include Hagia Sophia because it "wasn't significant". With is in mind, how can you defend the inclusion of Stonehenge, it is orders of magnitude more important but has been omitted. I think you're both probably over-estimating how "spooky" or impressive the monument is. It's worth seeing, to be sure, but it's no Petra or Pyramid. Modern fascination with it stems primarily from its great antiquity and the very primitive technology used to create it coupled with what was apparently very advanced astronomical observation.

Medieval people though the Devil (or Merlin) built it.

By Contrast Salisbury Cathedral originated the Sarum Rite (it actually originated in Old Sarum but developed in Salisbury) which came to dominate English, Welsh, Irish and Scottish usage.

So, you see, Salisbury Cathedral is more historically important that Stonehenge. That's not to say it should be a unique Great Work, but as things stand you CAN'T build the Great Cathedral most English medievalists would want to.

But it existed even in middle ages;

"The earliest example of archaeological work in Britain can, perhaps, be claimed by monks at Glastonbury Abbey in 1194, where the supposed burial place of King Arthur was found during the rebuilding of the great church after a fire (it was most likely the grave of a former Abbott). A more systematic – and less accidental – approach was taken by John Leland, appointed ‘the King’s Antiquary’ by Henry VIII in 1533 and charged with searching England and Wales for antiquities of all kinds."

file:///C:/Users/justin-work/Downloads/9780387094526-c1.pdf

Nonetheless, to us modern gamers, Stonehenge matters as much as Salisbury. To the middle age people, it was less of a history and more of a life. It probably was depends on each one's religion and culture. Paganism was probably, at least somewhat, stronger than what church historians had recorded.

I'm actually really glad you mentioned this - because Glastonbury Tor (and Abbey) are missing from the list despite being World-famous.
 

treb

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Question to both of you - Stonehenge doesn't matter, historically, to this period at all. According to PDX they didn't include Hagia Sophia because it "wasn't significant". With is in mind, how can you defend the inclusion of Stonehenge, it is orders of magnitude more important but has been omitted. I think you're both probably over-estimating how "spooky" or impressive the monument is. It's worth seeing, to be sure, but it's no Petra or Pyramid. Modern fascination with it stems primarily from its great antiquity and the very primitive technology used to create it coupled with what was apparently very advanced astronomical observation.

Medieval people though the Devil (or Merlin) built it.

By Contrast Salisbury Cathedral originated the Sarum Rite (it actually originated in Old Sarum but developed in Salisbury) which came to dominate English, Welsh, Irish and Scottish usage.

So, you see, Salisbury Cathedral is more historically important that Stonehenge. That's not to say it should be a unique Great Work, but as things stand you CAN'T build the Great Cathedral most English medievalists would want to.



I'm actually really glad you mentioned this - because Glastonbury Tor (and Abbey) are missing from the list despite being World-famous.

The abbey is honestly a better candiate than both of them for its association with the tomb of king Athur... Lest we forget the medieval west adored the Arthurian cycle.
 

jwalche

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Question to both of you - Stonehenge doesn't matter, historically, to this period at all. According to PDX they didn't include Hagia Sophia because it "wasn't significant". With is in mind, how can you defend the inclusion of Stonehenge,

I will simply disagree with your premises that "Stonehenge doesn't matter, historically, to this period at all."

And I will add that it can be included if Stonehenge historically matters to us the player. Commercially, It would not make sense to not capitalize on well known historical keywords. Countless games have capitalized it so it is a well know keyword in the market, making new players more comfortable to a game rumored for its rather difficult learning curve.

For average buyers outside of U.K., or non-Christian heritage inside U.K., Stonehenge has far heavier weight than Salisbury.
 
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treb

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I will simply disagree with your premises that "Stonehenge doesn't matter, historically, to this period at all."

And I will add that it can be included if Stonehenge historically matters to us the player. Commercially, It would not make sense to not capitalize on well known historical keywords.

I Play Ck2 because its the closest abstraction to medieval history in a game currently, I play it to Larp as a byzantine emperor or a viking king altering history in some cool way, if I wanted to pretend to be at the helm of some hypothetical neolithic British civilization id play civ on a world map.