Steppe nomads

[oblio-]

Hi,

I want to start the game as Qara Qoyunlu because it sounds awesome: Steppe Horde government form, Nomad tech group (175% tech cost - I'm a masochist), Steppe Horde military technology (can have 100% cavalry, increased cavalry combat ability), Shiite (10% morale for armies). It is also quite strong at the start, from its neighbors only behind the Timurids and Ottomans. Unfortunately both of them hate QQ, but I'll figure out later how to solve that :laugh:

I do not want to westernize or form any countries. I'll only form a country if I keep my government form. I've westernized as Romania, Kanem Bornu and I've played as Burgundy and Münster/Germany. 3 of those games became rather boring around 1750 since I could basically fight everyone at the same time. Only Romania was more challenging since it was my second game and I didn't have a lot of experience + the starting position didn't allow for expansion (Austria PUd Hungary, Poland PUd Lithuania, the Ottomans are... the Ottomans).

I'm having several problems in choosing the actual country to play next, and I really want to play QQ, but:

1. Is it true that you can build stuff from cores of other countries if those countries still exist? I plan to conquer 1 province from Georgia and another one from Genoa to be able to build Eastern/Western stuff. I'll probably vassalize/guarantee both Georgia and Genoa later on to make sure those countries don't go away so I can make stuff in my own provinces.

2. I heard a lot of talk about Hordes being strong on their own turf. I don't see anything on the wiki. Are they stronger in plains/steppes? Are they stronger in their own provinces? I see no mention of anything anywhere

3. I want to go Innovative/Defensive/Expansion (Siberia will be mine!)/Administrative/Offensive/Quality/Aristocratic/Diplomatic. Does this sound at all realistic? I guess I won't really be able to make it above the 5th idea group but I'm thinking that if I make tons of cash I can afford all 3 advisers which should keep me somewhat close in tech and maybe even give me some spare points for ideas.

I'd really love to hear from an experienced Khan. If there's an even more interesting Horde, please do tell

 

[Thrake]

I hope you are aware that nomad troops do not upgrade. At mil 30, you will still have the same cav. than at game start. As I'm concerned, I had good fun playing Aq Qoyunlu and conquering Qara, and then the Mughals / Ottomans. Both should be fun though, the terrain is a nice playground, much more funny than flat lands

 

[oblio-]

I hope you are aware that nomad troops do not upgrade. At mil 30, you will still have the same cav. than at game start. As I'm concerned, I had good fun playing Aq Qoyunlu and conquering Qara, and then the Mughals / Ottomans. Both should be fun though, the terrain is a nice playground, much more funny than flat lands

I know that there is a recruiting trick - if you conquer a province from another country which still exists, with a different tech group, you can recruit that type of units. That's why I plan to keep Georgia and/or Genoa alive - to recruit units only in those provinces. It will take a while but imagine Western cavalry with Horde + Shiite bonuses

 

[Golladan]

Keeping Genoa alive is going to be tough even with a guarantee. They'll still likely lose their provinces in their home turf. Plus I believe eventually their cores in eastern Europe will disappear. But yes, you can recruit units from a different tech group if you have province with a core from an existing nation of that tech group.

Keeping up in military tech is important so you might want to hold off on getting a military idea until late in the game. Though given that you're a horde and using cavalry a lot, you might want to pick up Aristocratic (the bonuses aren't horrible for a horde)

 

[Thrake]

I thought it only worked in EUIII. Here, I held Portugese provinces, but was still using loosy troops, or did I overlooked it? I had up to date mercs though, but you just need to border Westerners.

Btw, you would still have horrible cav. Think that, mil tech level increase shock and fire modifier for pips, and morale. Ie, cav starts at 1 times their pip in shock, and go at 4 times multiplier in late tech. With my western mercs, I still got beaten badly because I had lame modifiers and morale.

 

[oblio-]

I thought it only worked in EUIII. Here, I held Portugese provinces, but was still using loosy troops, or did I overlooked it? I had up to date mercs though, but you just need to border Westerners.

Btw, you would still have horrible cav. Think that, mil tech level increase shock and fire modifier for pips, and morale. Ie, cav starts at 1 times their pip in shock, and go at 4 times multiplier in late tech. With my western mercs, I still got beaten badly because I had lame modifiers and morale.

I plan to never be behind more than 1-2 levels in military tech, so the modifiers should be the same, I think. The plan is to:
a) somehow make tons of money - it's probably going to be hard
b) for each event that trades money/inflation for ADM/MIL especially, pick money/inflation - so basically save every ADM/MIL point I can

The hardest part will probably be keeping up my manpower until I have a working economy, since I won't be using stuff like "Harsh measures" to save MIL.

 

[Golladan]

I thought it only worked in EUIII. Here, I held Portugese provinces, but was still using loosy troops, or did I overlooked it? I had up to date mercs though, but you just need to border Westerners.

It still works. You can see this with Portugal since they start with Ceuta. Click on Ceuta, click the button in the province window to build troops, and you'll see your regular western troops plus the muslim troops. They just won't pop up if you use the Build icon in the UI under your flag.

 

[delpiero1234]

This thread will help you for QQ strategy an opening moves
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...9-Strategy-and-opening-moves-for-Qara-Qoyunlu

I played the game until 1672 (patch 1.5 forced me to quit the game). QQ was one of the most fun games I played. Forming Persia is crucial because the nomad tech group is really, really bad and you waste many Monarch Points on ridiculously expensive tech. By 1672 my Persia was westernized owned all of India and most of South East Asia. While being in nomad tech group you should consider diplo-vassaliazing the Africans tribes (can't do that anymore once you formed Persia)

 

[oblio-]

But I actually don't want to form Persia, since I like the government form. If you form Persia you lose all the Horde stuff.
Actually so far the most expensive thing has been keeping up my stability, 20 years in. That's also because my religious unity is great at the start but sucks later on since I'm Shiite and everyone around is well... not Shiite
I will need Religious ideas but I'd really, really love to get Expansion to block Muscovy from taking Siberia. Maybe I'll do the insane maneuver of getting Religious followed by Expansion. But that would basically make it impossible to get any kind of ADM tech since... 175% tech cost + 2 ADM idea groups doesn't sounds like a solid plan

With a bit of luck and a bit of monarch point management I really feel that I can keep up in tech. I will need a lot of money for this, but QQ seems quite rich - they control a trade node in Persia.

 

[Gidonihah]

1. Yes its true, I was able to keep up in my own military tech as a horde, and was able to field modern armies by using stolen cores. Its not really consistent what it gives you, and it is dependant on the stolen cores tech level, but when you find its giving you advanced cavalry spam it! make sure you got some good cores by Tech 20.
2. They get 25% shock bonus when fighting in friendly Plains. its nice. Deserts count as plains.
3.Sure why not. I like Aristocratic and defensive, as they protect you from being attacked, and aristocratics cavalry bonus will actually be useful.

 

[unmerged(65679)]

GL playing a horde is fairly tough. I'm surprised how long the AI hordes hang around in the game having said that.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

A bit old now, but here's something to look foward to :



Nomad to 1821. Especially worth noting the techs, as I took two military groups (Aristocratic and Quality) and nearly wound up maxed anyway. Do not take them early, however, wait for "ahead of years" to be a threat in the mid-late game. I also wound up with Diplomatic, Expansion, Religious, and ADM in this one. I might have taken one more late that I'm forgetting.

1. Yes, you can build troops in other group cores if they're alive. Late-game, I had 55 pip cavalry backed by the 25% horde shock, 30% cav bonuses, 21% discipline (adm ides for the other 6%), and a full row of flying batteries. At one point Britain landed 60+ units on my shores in the NW. They were slaughtered to a man easily. This game also involved a PU war vs Ottos over Mughals which I won via stalling it haha.

2. Plains and desert only, but you do get it.

3. Here are my suggested idea groups, based on my experience with that previous game:

- Exploration first is probably best. QQ can vassal the African nations and annex them, and can colonize into Malaysia and get full revenue from it. You get 2 colonists and a fast rate, helpful for Siberia too.
- Yes, trashing Muscovy quickly will make your life much easier. Golden Horde allying Timmy will slow that down a bit, however.
- Don't forget that whether you form Persia or not, you start with their cores. You can release Persia and feed them cores from the Timurids at 0 AE.
- It is possible to ally the Ottos early often, but they will break it.

Here are my suggestions:

ADM:

- Religious (obviously) and eventually Innovative. Mercs are of limited use because you can't hire them from different tech groups, so they'll be siege fodder after early game. Hordes vassal everybody in 1.5, so you can just do that.

DIP:

- Exploration, Expansion, Diplomatic - Max the #relations and ability to form alliances; with enough rep gouging you can pull ridiculous allies like Austria or France. The rest is to let you colonize Siberia + Indonesia.

MIL:

- Aristocracy for flavor, and to help annexing. It's never better than it will be in this kind of game, so might as well use it.
- Quality or Offensive: both have merit.

Taking exploration rather than expansion first slows down the vassal/annex game a bit, but I think the faster colonies are a bit stronger overally. Here's a game I'm currently doing with MK that took exploration first:



Keeping in mind I also turned all of Mexico into a colonial nation via vassal/annex (lol). MK has it much, much harder than QQ or Kazan, but I've still made decent ground. Russia will be a problem though, at least for a long while. Still, the +33 colonists on exploration compared to expansion's +10 helps out a lot, and the extra colonist helps out even more.

 

[axzhang]

Friend and I have a game in MP with us as Kazan + Chagatai in 1630 where we stretch from China to Poland/Bohemia in the HRE. Probably the most fun in EUIV so far since late game is still adequately challenging with the "no westernization/reforming" rule.

To supplement some of theMeinTeam's great tips:

- Keeping up in tech is actually pretty trivially easy. I'm 15/6/19 in 1630, which puts me at only two admin tech behind France and the same level as Ottos (same military parity all-around). Make sure to use heir-killing events and regency deaths to your advantage. Actually facing considerable ahead of time penalties for mil tech right now. Also try to get a western vassal (Genoa or Livonian order/Riga are easy ones to start with once you get through Muscovy/Crimea) for the -10% tech discount on western influences.

eg: These are pretty typical rulers for Steppe nomads:

- As of 1.5, if you have a vassal's cores, the vassal will never lose that core. Eg: Own Azow, vassalize Genoa. Genoa will never lose Azow as a core even if they no longer accept Tartar culture. You will always be able to recruit the unit with the lowest pips from that tech group (this is usually their cavalry. You will never be able to recruit western/eastern infantry).

- Try to get eastern cores and keep a eastern tech group alive as a vassal from tech 10 - 18. Reformed eastern hussars are the best cavalry in the game at that point. I have poland/muscovy alive as vassals solely to recruit their cavalry. By tech 19 it's Ottoman cavalry that wins, so try to get a core there (friend who plays Chagatai is doing that). Sometimes there are several models for cavalry (eg. tech 15 there are 3 possible eastern cavalry units), so pick the best one. I chose to recruit the polish kind here because Muscovy picked caracoles which have extra pips in fire instead of morale.

- With updated cavalry, home plains shock advantage and aristocratic idea, I'm tearing through Austria/Denmark western troops like paper. Cavalry + artillery + maybe a vassal stack to absorb initial fire phase damage is a deadly combo. At this point you have so much money that the maintenance cost doesn't really matter.


What we own so far. Should be fun trying to get to the Atlantic coast through mega France/Spain in the end game. Oh, and once you complete exploration/expansion/diplo you no longer have a need for diplo points. So for giggles we culture-converted everything conquered in Europe to Tartar/Mongol:

 

[Gidonihah]

(this is usually their cavalry. You will never be able to recruit western/eastern infantry).

Not so sure on that, I've had times when Infantry has been available, confusing times, but still.
Good stuff, it should be in the Horde Handbook (if there was one)

 

[axzhang]

Not so sure on that, I've had times when Infantry has been available, confusing times, but still.
Good stuff, it should be in the Horde Handbook (if there was one)

Probably because momentarily western cavalry had more pips than western infantry, so you can recruit the inferior of the two (which the game considers to be infantry at this point). Eg: if you own a western core at tech 4, you can recruit Halberd/Medieval infantry because:

Halberd/Medieval total pips: 2
Chevauchee/Medieval Knights total pips: 3/4

But by tech 5 Men at arms/longbows have 6 pips so you can recruit chevauchee/knights again. Past that point cavalry will never have more pips than western infantry.

 

[unmerged(65679)]

Mummmmaaaa tempted to take a horde group next. Reading up on the mongols on wiki is lovely. Those guys were freaking gods at the time and interestingly what's really never mentioned is how they laid the groundwork for really inclusive admin institutions around the world. A lot of the great empires later used those practices or evolved from them

 

[Raliks]

Qara is the big horde of the Qoyunlus right? I've found that the Ottomans ally them at the start.

 

[oblio-]

Awesome tips, thanks guys!

It seems that the Hordes are always at war - truly. So many weak neighbors, I have Georgia, Najd, Aq Qoyunlu and Astrakhan as vassals right now.
Things seem to be getting much harder in the future:
- to the South West the Mamluks seem pretty strong
- to the West the Ottomans are strong as always (they're my allies for now but that can't last as I hold land they'll want)
- to the North Crimea are blocking my advance - they're allied with the Ottomans ; Golden Horde have been stomped by me, they're no longer a problem; Muscovy, however, will be
- to the North East Kazan has PUd the Timurids ( - this will have to stop somehow as my power base probably has to come from Persia... + I need to go towards Siberia for the colonies

I'm quite starved for ADM because I really needed to boost my stability. And I also vassalized Georgia during a war so insta truce breaking with the Golder Horde for -3 stability.
Military tech on par with everyone around me or better - 4.

With the Horde rulers having good stats I feel I'll be able to keep up in tech once I have more experience - awesome!

 

[oblio-]

Progress so far:

Diplomatic map mode since political map mode will just show that QQ is actually a snaky thingie in between Georgia, AQ, Persia and Najd, my vassals.

I took Exploration first and I got my first colony in the Maldives - it will be soon done. I'm actually keeping up quite nicely in tech, 5/6/6 while the tech leaders, the Ottomans, are 6/6/7. They're the only ones with artillery in the world, which is quite funny

I managed to break the back of the Kazan/Timurid PU which allowed me to return all the Persian cores. At this point I'm third in force limits after Ottomans and Ming. I plan to beat Nogai and to visit Kazan again to get access to Siberia and then plop down 2 colonies ASAP to block Muscovy, which doesn't yet have a colonist. Muscovy is getting kind of scary but I think they're manageable and I'll just destroy their colonies if I have to.
Once Muscovy is locked in I'll turn my sights to Otto, which just broke their alliance to me and have turned hostile.
It also seems I'll have to wage quite a bit of religious wars to force other countries to become Shiite. Otherwise I'll have huge problems during my conquests, even with religious ideas. I already forced Yemen and Adal to turn Shiite.

So:
Timurids - taken care of.
Muscovy - next up.
Ottomans - they will be a tough nut to crack.
After that - any recommendations? I like the huge Asian empires, they look nice, but I'd rather take out the Chief Heathen himself, the HR Emperor. The current plan looks like: colonize Siberia, conquer Europe.

I'll stay a Horde all the way. For the Hooooordeeee!!!