Stellaris: RTS vs. Turn based.

[unillogical]

You're describing genres. RTS and TBS aren't genres and they never should be, and even categories of genres is a stretch. Why would you say "this is the defining difference between these two genres" and then for games that break that mold, just disregard it because it's not that essential? Clearly, there are other things that seperate base builders from 4x games from GSGs. Why not focus on those, instead of a genre?

And there are things that can happen within a day (movement, fleet combat) so a day is not a turn.
That's ridiculously arbitrary. The bounds of a genre are defined by how much a person can do? More people could do more things in a day than others, so for one person a game is a completely different genre than another.

I'm saying if you wish to categorise Strategy games into two broad categories (RTS and TBS) and then you take a grand strategy game and say "which should I put it into" then I can fully see the rationale of putting it into TBS, there really isn't much difference between the genres whereas with regards to a RTS game it bears very little in common. Ultimately you can categorise games based on whatever you wish, we can still argue about consistency within those preferred categorisations.

What are the difference between a day is a turn and 1/100 second is a turn... If you speed up the game then days will fly by several in a second will it become a RTS for you then?

Do you base on the fact you may pause the game?

By that definition Homeworld is not an RTS either because you can pause and give order and resources are gathered in a set amount of time, weapons fire in a set amount of time etc..

Why is it so hard to not see how the flow of time and the interaction with a game is what makes it into a real-time game, the fact that it is slow and you may pause to reflect make no real difference. It is certainly not a game like Star-Craft it is a differen kind of strategy game that incorporate element from both classic RTS and classic TBS. I would say it is neither in that case.

The more correct term would then be... RTGS... Real-Time-Grand-Strategy. The game have very little connection with classics such as Civilization that work on completely different principles when it comes to game mechanics and interaction between players and AI.

Did you actually read my post? I already anticipated and addressed your points.

I did not say that the fact that you can pause the game makes it a TSG, if you implement a pause system into Starcraft where you can queue up moves while the game is paused then that doesn't make it a turn based strategy game, I didn't even imply it and I don't know where you got that from; BUT what it would likely do is make the game more accessible and popular with people who play turn based games. What I actually said was, the fact there is no end turn button doesn't change the fact that each day is a turn.

Everyone can see and conceptualise the difference in terms of days in Europa or Stellaris and seconds in Starcraft, I don't need to address that.

I already said you can pump the speed up to the max and then some of those skills that RTS games test would enter into it. That isn't part of the games design philosophy however, it's just something you could do if you want.

Stellaris does have turns for combat, it just uses animations to make the game appear smoother.

Again I will state that whether or not a game has an end turn button isn't what's important. Again I will state that if you give someone who plays traditional end turn TBS games Stellaris but does not likely traditional RTS games they may very well play it, the same is simply not true in reverse.

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

Did you actually read my post? I already anticipated and addressed your points.

I did not say that the fact that you can pause the game makes it a GSD, if you implement a pause system into Starcraft where you can queue up moves while the game is paused then that doesn't make it a turn based strategy game, I didn't even imply it and I don't know where you got that from; BUT what it would likely do is make the game more accessible and popular with people who play turn based games. What I actually said was, the fact there is no end turn button doesn't change the fact that each day is a turn.

Everyone can see and conceptualise the difference in terms of days in Europa or Stellaris and seconds in Starcraft, I don't need to address that.

I already said you can pump the speed up to the max and then some of those skills that RTS games test would enter into it. That isn't part of the games design philosophy however, it's just something you could do if you want.

Stellaris does have turns for combat, it just uses animations to make the game appear smoother.

Again I will state that whether or not a game has an end turn button isn't what's important. Again I will state that if you give someone who plays traditional end turn TBS games Stellaris but does not likely traditional RTS games they may very well play it, the same is simply not true in reverse.

Ok, I might have misread your intentions there, my bad... I agree with you.

Stellaris is in my opinion an RTS if you play it multi-player and force it to play in "Normal" through a whole campaign. So in that sense I would say it become much "like" an RTS even if it still is a GSG.

But in the term "turn based" or "real-time" the game is more "real-time" than turn based for me personally because no matter how much you can pause the game you still get that feeling of being overwhelmed by decision making despite being able to pause the game just because everything happen at the same time.

 

[ringhloth]

Chess isn't so fluid in motion, nor as quick. But, it's a rough example, in illustration.

But "fluid" or "quick" wasn't in your definition. When every point moves the goalposts, perhaps the goal isn't attainable.

I'm saying if you wish to categorise Strategy games into two broad categories (RTS and TBS) and then you take a grand strategy game and say "which should I put it into" then I can fully see the rationale of putting it into TBS, there really isn't much difference between the genres whereas with regards to a RTS game it bears very little in common. Ultimately you can categorise games based on whatever you wish, we can still argue about consistency within those preferred categorisations.

I don't wish that, though. Clearly, Stellaris is a game played in real time but has more in similarity with turn based game. At high level Civ 4 multiplayer, it becomes a real-time strategy game since orders are processed simultaneously, even though the civ series is a prime example of a 4x TBS. There are so many things that you could call these genres that would distinguish them from each other. RTS or TBS does not define a genre anymore, because nearly every modern strategy or tactics game is, on some level, a hybrid of the two.

 

[unillogical]

But "fluid" or "quick" wasn't in your definition. When every point moves the goalposts, perhaps the goal isn't attainable.

I don't wish that, though. Clearly, Stellaris is a game played in real time but has more in similarity with turn based game. At high level Civ 4 multiplayer, it becomes a real-time strategy game since orders are processed simultaneously, even though the civ series is a prime example of a 4x TBS. There are so many things that you could call these genres that would distinguish them from each other. RTS or TBS does not define a genre anymore, because nearly every modern strategy or tactics game is, on some level, a hybrid of the two.

Clearly Stellaris isn't real time, it's turn based - there's just no end turn button. As I have already brought up twice now, when you play multiplayer on CIV or EU4 due to the fact that you have to consider other players there tends to be time pressure introduced, either because you're not going to be pausing, have turn time limits, simultaneous turns which give an advantage to the attacker etc. but that time pressure is an unfortunate side effect, not an essential component of the game. I agree there are an awful lot of hybrid games, I don't think PDS Grand Strategies are examples of them and I think in general it is pretty intuitive whether a game is more like playing Starcraft or more like playing Civilisation. Games like Total War there's a lot more room for subjectivity, I put them in TBS but equally they could go in RTS.

 

[SolarSatellite]

But "fluid" or "quick" wasn't in your definition. When every point moves the goalposts, perhaps the goal isn't attainable.

What do you think I mean to say? Does 'fluid' or 'quick' relate at all to RTS? I don't know what you mean, but moving Goalposts sounds RTS to me! That is, If the Goalpost is a frame on a screen you can perform 1 action on. It's obviously moving, at a rate, trying to be constant, but may be variable, especially with LAG.

Whereas: A Turn Based Strategy, at it's purest form, knows no time parameters - for example the oldest Civilization game! Given, people's lives however, there is usually some sort of compromise, given Time Management, of Turns, hence, my Chess illustration (hybrid). But, the more quickly, and fluid it is..... (in my mind), where actions are scraping at 0-1 times per frame, or in Stellaris the days go by faster than a statistical action, and you can actually lose on time, based on inability to manage stuff, that becomes RTS, regardless of my move, your move, we move concept.... That is more like Starcraft 2.

However, with the nature of paused games, that becomes more like games In-Turn. (because you can catch up). Whether it be, at the natural day breaking point in Stellaris, or on a smaller scale.

I hope I've given more clarity; less confusion to the subject matter!

However, I would like a mini-map, in Stellaris -- that would be Neat. (for RTS purposes....). The game is a season long as it is, any quick tricks to speed it up, makes sense to me, being more time efficient!

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

Clearly Stellaris isn't real time, it's turn based - there's just no end turn button. As I have already brought up twice now, when you play multiplayer on CIV or EU4 due to the fact that you have to consider other players there tends to be time pressure introduced, either because you're not going to be pausing, have turn time limits, simultaneous turns which give an advantage to the attacker etc. but that time pressure is an unfortunate side effect, not an essential component of the game. I agree there are an awful lot of hybrid games, I don't think PDS Grand Strategies are examples of them and I think in general it is pretty intuitive whether a game is more like playing Starcraft or more like playing Civilisation. Games like Total War there's a lot more room for subjectivity, I put them in TBS but equally they could go in RTS.

Well... Paradox marketing their Clausewitz engine games as pausable real-time strategy.

The defining trait is that in a TBS you get to act within a time slot you don't get to do that in a game like Stellaris that is a continual gaming experience. If it fas a flowing game that auto ended turns as in a TBS then units would magically teleport from day to day and nothing would go on in incremental steps in between.

The defining trait of a real-time game are that time flow seamlessly at a constant rate... the engine is also marketed as a real-time engine and it behave like it.

You may define it however you like.

 

[Reaperdamo]

if there is no end turn button it cant be turn based - are people that pedantic these days. start counting seconds etc. really is quite worrying how some people obsess over the mundane.

 

[xsmilingbanditx]

Well technically...it's different.

My definition of turn would be "when ever a calculation happens"

What's correct: Per pedantic definition, each an every game out there would be turn based. You just cannot distinguish the turns because today CPU cycles tend to be rather....short.

TBS Games usually make you press a Button that tells the Software to "make calculations happen".

I totally disagree on the definition of TBS being "one Player at a time acts". This is simply not true. The Civilization or Total War Series allow simultanious turns and when all hit the Button the calculations are made in the appropiate order.
It is also not true that Games by definition are a RTS if the timeflow is fluent but pausable.
In Master of Orion 2 you could activate "Pause if anything happens". Otherwise the game just jumped to the next turn.

So now that we cornered the Problem a little we can propably agree on "PDX Games offer Features from both worlds"

It's a hybrid. It uses abstract time measurements to simulate fluent time, but those match more or less automatically taken turns, simultaniously by every Player, and can be paused.

What separates it most from an RTS is imho that click speed does not matter. In C&C, SC, AoE and the like it does.

 

[Mountain Man]

Conversely, In a Turn based strategy game, there's no need for a mini-map, as the game is paused, then resumed, for each turn. When you need to find where something is, you have plenty of time to find it.

In Stellaris, you can simply pause the game.

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

Well technically...it's different.

My definition of turn would be "when ever a calculation happens"

What's correct: Per pedantic definition, each an every game out there would be turn based. You just cannot distinguish the turns because today CPU cycles tend to be rather....short.

TBS Games usually make you press a Button that tells the Software to "make calculations happen".

I totally disagree on the definition of TBS being "one Player at a time acts". This is simply not true. The Civilization or Total War Series allow simultanious turns and when all hit the Button the calculations are made in the appropiate order.
It is also not true that Games by definition are a RTS if the timeflow is fluent but pausable.
In Master of Orion 2 you could activate "Pause if anything happens". Otherwise the game just jumped to the next turn.

So now that we cornered the Problem a little we can propably agree on "PDX Games offer Features from both worlds"

It's a hybrid. It uses abstract time measurements to simulate fluent time, but those match more or less automatically taken turns, simultaniously by every Player, and can be paused.

What separates it most from an RTS is imho that click speed does not matter. In C&C, SC, AoE and the like it does.

In multi-player then click speed will certainly be a useful skill, especially during wartime. Stellaris behave exactly like a real-time game if you never pause the game which are quite likely in a MP game.

I bet there are players who very rarely pause the game and treat it as a real-time game.

Some RTS can be paused and given order in, such as Homeworld for example.

Paradox games are marketed as pausable real-time strategy game and per definition is a real-time game. Most games like RTS also process turns for collecting resources and things like that just as this game does. Ship movement and ship combat certainly fill ALL the criteria for being in real-time. The smallest usable time in Stellaris are 1/10th of a day.

 

[xsmilingbanditx]

Maybe then be can stop with the arguments at this point. Obviously neither side wishes to reach any point of consent here (don't want to be rude though).

RTS lately became a far to vague definition by itself. Remembering the classics like Dune 2 or C&C that basically founded the Genre, Stellaris does not fit there. But that's more or less because most strategy Games are not about strategy but tactics. Stellaris is about strategy.

 

[Knightblaster]

PDX games are all like this -- they take place in real time, but it isn't like the classic "RTS" type where everything is a race and about "actions per minute" and so on like SC. And you can always pause the game whenever you want to take as long as you want to make certain decisions and so on. That design is a core design philosophy of all of their games, really -- you'd know that, I think, if you'd played the others.

 

[SolarSatellite]

if there is no end turn button it cant be turn based - are people that pedantic these days. start counting seconds etc. really is quite worrying how some people obsess over the mundane.

The turn end button is the unpause button. When you're ready to do your turn again, pause the game!

 

[BmB23]

You can click on event notifications or right click your outliner, or use control groups to go directly to what is happening.

The genre is realtime 4x. It's not an RTS. RTS means dune 2, warcraft/starcraft, command and conquer, TA. That kind of game. RTT means ground control, wargame, world in conflict, company of heroes/dawn of war 2. That kind of game.

 

[DrZoidberg]

There is a company that combine paradox style rts with turnbased gaming. They used to be known as Paradox France a subsidiary of Paradox but has now made their own game company called AGEOD. Their idea is that in the Paradox games the players give all orders instantly, which make for annoying gameplay as the AI will always run away with their stack of troops if they are outnumbered and you will have a hard time catching them unless you play on a slow speed and pause alot. In AGEODs game like their Vicky 2 clone Pride of Nations you make your turn and give order for your troops for the next 15 days and then when you end the turn the turn is processed simultanius. Which is to me a clever way of combining the best of RTS and turnbased.

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

Combat Mission is another title which are a real-time game where you give orders once every minute... is that a turn based game too?!?

You can even play it without the pause every minute, this game have no clear end turn mechanics then, but you can pause and give orders... exactly like in a Paradox game.

Paradox games are real-time games with a pause function. So it is a hybrid between a RTS and TBS, but it is real-time game that is not in question.

 

[Haldan]

What? Stellaris is an RTS? It's turn based! Every day is one turn!

 

[Pen Name]

What? Stellaris is an RTS? It's turn based! Every day is one turn!

Call of Duty is turn-based, every frame is one turn.

 

[Jelbert]

What separates it most from an RTS is imho that click speed does not matter. In C&C, SC, AoE and the like it does.

Eh?

Click speed can make a big big difference in MP which what separates Stellaris from being a pure turn based Strategy game.

Reaction speed can matter, especially given how much micro Stellaris requires.

 

[baffa]

It's not real-time, it's like 1 day per second or whatever your speed is at.

And if this game was something silly like starcraft or any other RTS I would nuke it from orbit, because... reasons.