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Goldseeker

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No.. there are microturns and about 100 in each day... do you see ships jump all over the place each day... do you see that in combat to?

There are a bunch of things that ticks during these micro turns... resources ticks every month... is a month a turn to?

Having something happening every 30 turns, doesn't make it not turnbased, there no turns between days, just interpolation.

The game deals in discreet time, it is very obvious. It is not bad by anymeans, but it puts it in somewhere in between turnbased and realtime
 
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Technically, Stellaris is turn-based. Each day is a turn. They just occur so rapidly, that it feels like a real time game. But fortunately, the game is pausable, so you can stop at any time to coordinate an attack or take care of a situation.

But this is how Paradox games have always been, so it would have been weird if it was different.
That's really pedantic. Technically, Starcraft is a TBS, since each tick of the game that it processes is a turn. They just occur so rapidly, that it feels like a real time game.But fortunately, the game is pausable, so you can stop at any time to coordinate an attack or take care of a situation.

I think most people here are confused at what OP is getting at, though. While it feels like a hybrid of the base builder genre and the 4x genre (which isn't really true at all; it's more a hybrid of the GSG and 4x), it lacks many of the conveniences of both. I mean, I guess that's technically true, but between the outliner and the quick select at the bottom of the screen, I feel like there's enough of a foundation for making that up, even if I would like some changes.
 
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That's really pedantic. Technically, Starcraft is a TBS, since each tick of the game that it processes is a turn. They just occur so rapidly, that it feels like a real time game.But fortunately, the game is pausable, so you can stop at any time to coordinate an attack or take care of a situation.

The thing is that starcraft mechanic deals in notquantifieable time, you can easily increase gameupdate from 10 frames per second, to 30 frames per second and the game wouldn't change at all, it wouldn't run faster nor slower the same starcraft but with 3x cpu load and less interpolation. That is not the case for stellaris i'm fairly certain from how the game is designed that internal logic deals in days(which are turns).
 
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Having something happening every 30 turns, doesn't make it not turnbased, there no turns between days, just interpolation.

The game deals in discreet time, it is very obvious. It is not bad by anymeans, but it puts it in somewhere in between turnbased and realtime

Weapons in combat work in between day cycles as does ship movement... is that not the whole point.

Even if each day is a cycle it is still real time and not turn based... all RTS have some form of base for when stuff happen in them!

The difference between a turn based game and a real time game is the flow of the game and that everyone get their own turn before you proceed to the next. That is the difference.
 
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ringhloth

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The thing is that starcraft mechanic deals in notquantifieable time, you can easily increase gameupdate from 10 frames per second, to 30 frames per second and the game wouldn't change at all, it wouldn't run faster nor slower the same starcraft but with 3x cpu load and less interpolation. That is not the case for stellaris i'm fairly certain from how the game is designed that internal logic deals in days(which are turns).
What, so just because something special happens every x number of ticks, that makes it a turn-based game?
 

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I organise my games into categories on Steam, two of which are real time strategies and turn based strategies. My collection of grand strategy games are in the turn-based games section. The reason is that simply put, the games have a lot in common with regular turn based games but very little with real time strategy games. This is why youtubers like DASTactics plays Paradox games when he does not like the genre of RTS at all.

First off, Stellaris is based on turns, the lack of an 'end turn' button doesn't change that, each day is a turn, they just happen to move on automatically, If you wanted to you could play the game as a turn based game, you could pause every day, make your decisions and move on. The difference between a game like Civilization and a Grand Strategy boils down mainly to scale. Paradox games have significantly more turns and each turn does less. In Civilization you'll get a significant amount of science, food etc. every turn, in Stellaris it's only ever 30 turns or so, the result is that an individual turn (or day) is far less significant in Stellaris or EU4 than it is in Civilisation, this means that providing the game is played on a slow enough speed, in general there is no need to pause.

RTS games test a very different set of skils, sure they test your strategic skills, same as turn based skills but to excel at a RTS you generally need to learn keyboard shortcuts, you need to be able to think on your feet, you need to be able to multitask effectively, simultaneously concentrating on macro and micro organisation. Testing those skills is not the point of a turn based strategy game and nor is it the point of a PDS grand strategy. The only difference between a player that plays purely with the mouse and one that plays with keyboard shortcuts is efficiency. DDRJake announced early on that he doesn't like using Keyboard shortcuts in Europa, Arumba is the opposite and creates entire mods to add shortcuts to the game and yet the former is undoubtedly the better player. Jake or myself (because I'm much the same when it comes to shortcuts) are not disadvantaged by relying on the mouse in a grand strategy game or civ but I would be in an RTS. You don't have to think on your feet either and can plan out moves at your leisure. Similarly you aren't generally under that intense pressure born from having to try to micro whilst also managing your production at home.

Again I will point out that grand strategy games appeal far more to turn-based strategy enthusiasts than they do RTS games enthusiasts. You're unlike to see someone who likes exclusively real time strategy playing Europa, you're very likely to see someone who exclusively likes turn based playing it though. This is simply put because again, they have very little in common with RTS games, and almost everything in common with turn based ones.

Of course because turns move automatically then some of these RTS elements can creep in in multiplayer where pausing is frowned upon, or if you set artificial rules for yourself about pausing or playing on a fast speed but they aren't part of the game's core purpose.
 
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The thing is that starcraft mechanic deals in notquantifieable time, you can easily increase gameupdate from 10 frames per second, to 30 frames per second and the game wouldn't change at all, it wouldn't run faster nor slower the same starcraft but with 3x cpu load and less interpolation. That is not the case for stellaris i'm fairly certain from how the game is designed that internal logic deals in days(which are turns).

Interesting Notion!

Actions per frame? If any player could average between 0-1 actions per frame, or a low number, perhaps maybe 0-5, then that is approximately RTS, assuming the frames are rapid moving. Whereas, high actions per frame. (due to game pause), or whatever, might as well be turn based. (to get a bearing on the map or whatever). There is no mini-map in Stellaris, so I imagine that would be one hurdle to overcome, causing pausing.... getting a bearing on things! A natural pause at the end of the day, if commands are allowed to be issued, is a turn based thing. Otherwise, if no such commands could be issued, the pause would just be a natural breaking point until the next day, I would tend to think.
 

ringhloth

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I organise my games into categories on Steam, two of which are real time strategies and turn based strategies. My collection of grand strategy games are in the turn-based games section. The reason is that simply put, the games have a lot in common with regular turn based games but very little with real time strategy games. This is why youtubers like DASTactics plays Paradox games when he does not like the genre of RTS at all.

First off, Stellaris is based on turns, the lack of an 'end turn' button doesn't change that, each day is a turn, they just happen to move on automatically, If you wanted to you could play the game as a turn based game, you could pause every day, make your decisions and move on. The difference between a game like Civilization and a Grand Strategy boils down mainly to scale. Paradox games have significantly more turns and each turn does less. In Civilization you'll get a significant amount of science, food etc. every turn, in Stellaris it's only ever 30 turns or so, the result is that an individual turn (or day) is far less significant in Stellaris or EU4 than it is in Civilisation, this means that providing the game is played on a slow enough speed, in general there is no need to pause.

RTS games test a very different set of skils, sure they test your strategic skills, same as turn based skills but to excel at a RTS you generally need to learn keyboard shortcuts, you need to be able to think on your feet, you need to be able to multitask effectively, simultaneously concentrating on macro and micro organisation. Testing those skills is not the point of a turn based strategy game and nor is it the point of a PDS grand strategy. The only difference between a player that plays purely with the mouse and one that plays with keyboard shortcuts is efficiency. DDRJake announced early on that he doesn't like using Keyboard shortcuts in Europa, Arumba is the opposite and creates entire mods to add shortcuts to the game and yet the former is undoubtedly the better player. Jake or myself (because I'm much the same when it comes to shortcuts) are not disadvantaged by relying on the mouse in a grand strategy game or civ but I would be in an RTS. You don't have to think on your feet either and can plan out moves at your leisure. Similarly you aren't generally under that intense pressure born from having to try to micro whilst also managing your production at home.

Again I will point out that grand strategy games appeal far more to turn-based strategy enthusiasts than they do RTS games enthusiasts. You're unlike to see someone who likes exclusively real time strategy playing Europa, you're very likely to see someone who exclusively likes turn based playing it though. This is simply put because again, they have very little in common with RTS games, and almost everything in common with turn based ones.

Of course because turns move automatically then some of these RTS elements can creep in in multiplayer where pausing is frowned upon, or if you set artificial rules for yourself about pausing or playing on a fast speed but they aren't part of the game's core purpose.
You're describing genres. RTS and TBS aren't genres and they never should be, and even categories of genres is a stretch. Why would you say "this is the defining difference between these two genres" and then for games that break that mold, just disregard it because it's not that essential? Clearly, there are other things that seperate base builders from 4x games from GSGs. Why not focus on those, instead of a genre?

And there are things that can happen within a day (movement, fleet combat) so a day is not a turn.
Interesting Notion!

Actions per frame? If any player could average between 0-1 actions per frame, or a low number, perhaps maybe 0-5, then that is approximately RTS, assuming the frames are rapid moving. Whereas, high actions per frame. (due to game pause), or whatever, might as well be turn based. (to get a bearing on the map or whatever). There is no mini-map in Stellaris, so I imagine that would be one hurdle to overcome, causing pausing.... getting a bearing on things! A natural pause at the end of the day, if commands are allowed to be issued, is a turn based thing. Otherwise, if no such commands could be issued, the pause would just be a natural breaking point until the next day, I would tend to think.
That's ridiculously arbitrary. The bounds of a genre are defined by how much a person can do? More people could do more things in a day than others, so for one person a game is a completely different genre than another.
 
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Why is it so hard to understand that RTS just mean Real Time Strategy?!?

If the game pass in real time and it is a strategy game then it is RTS. There are many forms of RTS out there.

Because the term "Real Time Strategy" has come to mean a specific category of computer game, independent of the meanings of the words themselves, and Stellaris (and other Paradox games) are not in that category, even if they are "real-time" games involving strategy. Just like the term "Action Role-Playing Game" refers to a specific genre of computer games that involve a whole lot of stat-juggling character progression with actual role-playing being mostly non-existent.
 
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I organise my games into categories on Steam, two of which are real time strategies and turn based strategies. My collection of grand strategy games are in the turn-based games section. The reason is that simply put, the games have a lot in common with regular turn based games but very little with real time strategy games. This is why youtubers like DASTactics plays Paradox games when he does not like the genre of RTS at all.

First off, Stellaris is based on turns, the lack of an 'end turn' button doesn't change that, each day is a turn, they just happen to move on automatically, If you wanted to you could play the game as a turn based game, you could pause every day, make your decisions and move on. The difference between a game like Civilization and a Grand Strategy boils down mainly to scale. Paradox games have significantly more turns and each turn does less. In Civilization you'll get a significant amount of science, food etc. every turn, in Stellaris it's only ever 30 turns or so, the result is that an individual turn (or day) is far less significant in Stellaris or EU4 than it is in Civilisation, this means that providing the game is played on a slow enough speed, in general there is no need to pause.

RTS games test a very different set of skils, sure they test your strategic skills, same as turn based skills but to excel at a RTS you generally need to learn keyboard shortcuts, you need to be able to think on your feet, you need to be able to multitask effectively, simultaneously concentrating on macro and micro organisation. Testing those skills is not the point of a turn based strategy game and nor is it the point of a PDS grand strategy. The only difference between a player that plays purely with the mouse and one that plays with keyboard shortcuts is efficiency. DDRJake announced early on that he doesn't like using Keyboard shortcuts in Europa, Arumba is the opposite and creates entire mods to add shortcuts to the game and yet the former is undoubtedly the better player. Jake or myself (because I'm much the same when it comes to shortcuts) are not disadvantaged by relying on the mouse in a grand strategy game or civ but I would be in an RTS. You don't have to think on your feet either and can plan out moves at your leisure. Similarly you aren't generally under that intense pressure born from having to try to micro whilst also managing your production at home.

Again I will point out that grand strategy games appeal far more to turn-based strategy enthusiasts than they do RTS games enthusiasts. You're unlike to see someone who likes exclusively real time strategy playing Europa, you're very likely to see someone who exclusively likes turn based playing it though. This is simply put because again, they have very little in common with RTS games, and almost everything in common with turn based ones.

Of course because turns move automatically then some of these RTS elements can creep in in multiplayer where pausing is frowned upon, or if you set artificial rules for yourself about pausing or playing on a fast speed but they aren't part of the game's core purpose.

What are the difference between a day is a turn and 1/100 second is a turn... If you speed up the game then days will fly by several in a second will it become a RTS for you then?

Do you base on the fact you may pause the game?

By that definition Homeworld is not an RTS either because you can pause and give order and resources are gathered in a set amount of time, weapons fire in a set amount of time etc..

Why is it so hard to not see how the flow of time and the interaction with a game is what makes it into a real-time game, the fact that it is slow and you may pause to reflect make no real difference. It is certainly not a game like Star-Craft it is a differen kind of strategy game that incorporate element from both classic RTS and classic TBS. I would say it is neither in that case. ;)

The more correct term would then be... RTGS... Real-Time-Grand-Strategy. The game have very little connection with classics such as Civilization that work on completely different principles when it comes to game mechanics and interaction between players and AI.
 
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ringhloth

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Because the term "Real Time Strategy" has come to mean a specific category of computer game, independent of the meanings of the words themselves, and Stellaris (and other Paradox games) are not in that category, even if they are "real-time" games involving strategy. Just like the term "ARPG" refers to a specific genre of computer games that involve a whole lot of stat-juggling character progression with actual role-playing being mostly non-existent.
There are other names for these genres, though, so just use ones that aren't stupidly defined.
The more correct term would then be... RTGS... Real-Time-Grand-Strategy. The game have very little connection with classics such as Civilization that work on completely different principles when it comes to game mechanics and interaction between players and AI.
Or just call it a GSG, because the flow of time is really not that important anymore.
 
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SolarSatellite

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That's ridiculously arbitrary. The bounds of a genre are defined by how much a person can do? More people could do more things in a day than others, so for one person a game is a completely different genre than another.

Even in chess, it's a turn based game. One could put a clock on it, per game or per move. If a player doesn't reach exactly 1 move per frame, in the per move definition, or 1 game per game frame, then a player could be at fault and lose because of it!

Stellaris may be closer to chess. Except, if a player hasn't been issuing commands for movement in months 0-0-0-0-0-0, because of a too fast game speed; it can be paused. And, the player can suddenly issue 10 game commands during the pause phase, and then resume, just to catch up! Chess is not as merciful, and wouldn't allow a player to do that.
 

TheWalkingLost

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I spend the majority of my game in Fastest. Turns would stall this game so hard. I'd be spamming the turn button and god forbid if it had 'did you forget' feature preventing turns.
 

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Or just call it a GSG, because the flow of time is really not that important anymore.

I certainly concede the term RTS is badly construed... it is better to just call it GSG and leave it at that. ;)
 

ringhloth

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Even in chess, it's a turn based game. One could put a clock on it, per game or per move. If a player doesn't reach exactly 1 move per frame, in the per move definition, or 1 game per game frame, then a player could be at fault and lose because of it!

Stellaris may be closer to chess. Except, if a player hasn't been issuing commands for movement in months 0-0-0-0-0-0, because of a too fast game speed; it can be paused. And, the player can suddenly issue 10 game commands during the pause phase, and then resume, just to catch up! Chess is not as merciful, and wouldn't allow a player to do that.
But chess doesn't fill your definition of TBS. You can make one move per game tick (a single turn), so it's 0-5, so it's an RTS.
 

Vantskruv

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I'm suprised nobody answered these questions from the OP. I will try too, and correct me if I'm wrong.

There is also the added feature of command groups, with numbers.... where you can select these numbered groups anywhere with just one number hit. To form, you have the group selected, right click on the number, that's it. And, furthermore, there's the possibility of giving commands without looking at the screen!
I think this is implemented, but I've not tested it out, I'm not sure if any hotkeys are bound (only clickable?). I remember when starting the game, you have some icons in the bottom left of the screen were you can select defined units which you are starting with (science ship; construction ship). Also you are able to select units in the top right corner of the screen where you can expand or retract the list of categories they belong to . I have not yet tested it out to add more units in the bottom left side of screen.

But, is there a command to jump where the action is, once paused, and then resume, like Civ? Also, in diplomacy, is there music and pause predominantly..... while, in map mode, there's RTS predominantly? That would appear to be the goal. If not diplomacy messages, then pop-up messages with story-lines, tips, advice, etc.... Stellaris is more complex than meets the eye!
When something happens, i.e. 'hostile ship detected', an icon appears in the top of the screen. From this icon you can jump direct to the action.
 
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Barnacle Bill

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Digital computers inherently have some discrete "tick" - the clock cycle of the CPU. It is fundamentally impossible for anything running on a digital computer to actually be "continuous" like e.g. an electric motor.

A day, or a 10th of a day, or whatever in Stellaris or any other Paradox strategy game isn't a "turn". With turns, whether I-go/you-go or we-go, the game actually stops between turns. In this sense, Paradox games are RTS, although what a lot of people think of when they see "RTS" is a game wherein human reaction time is intended to be a component of player skill. I don't play those sorts of games, unless you count air combat sims (and I haven't actually played one of those since IL-2 was new).

I get the sense that a lot of people playing Stellaris are on their first Paradox game, possibly because of the subject matter (the others being historical games with a more limited audience).

Other Paradox games have mini-maps. Not sure why they omitted that useful feature in Stellaris. That's not the only useful typical Paradox feature they omitted, either. I'm missing the leger quit a bit.

I started playing interstellar 4X games with the grandpappy of them all, the board game "Stellar Conquest" back in the 70's. Thankfully, interstellar 4X games have proven more enduring than 70's fashion, because they are my favorite genre of games but I'm not missing the leasure suits and flaired pants (although I wouldn't mind a comeback for "Farah hair").

Generally I prefer turn-based strategy games to RTS, even if the latter are pausible. A major exception to that are the Paradox games, though.

I've been with Paradox since the original EU, and was actually a beta for EU2 (although not a very useful one as it was in beta about the time my first kid was born and the boss lady wasn't down with me hiding in the man cave for hours playing a game back then). I saw right off the potential for a Paradox-style interstellar 4X game. Basically a map composed of sea zones (painted black), some of which contain island archipelagos (i.e. multi-planet star systems). Stellaris is the fulfillment of that long-ago wish. Needs a little polishing, but of course what newly-published Paradox game ever didn't?
 
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