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TheHolyAsdf

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Good day all

I have an upcoming big multiplayer game with lots of online friends/acquaintance (10).
I don't want to be defeated or humiliated, and I especially don't want the same happening to my two close friends so we've agreed to form a federation as soon as possible and play as fanatical egalitarians or xenophiles. With the rest of the remaining seven players, I largely am indifferent what they'll do

There is at least three veteran players who are likely playing fanatical militarists or xenophobes and at least one as a devouring swarm. I don't think they'll show any mercy.

I am seeking to ensure the security of my empire and subsequent federation.
We are likely playing on a 400 star map. There will be no mods or AI empires.
I have around 700 hours of play but most of that playtime, i could count on human players to be allies.
Anyone have particular advice in such a game? Feel free to link videos or other forum threads.
 

RoverStorm

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Obviously I recommend a point in militarist; the fire-rate is hard to snuff at and you get access to highly important combat civics like Distinguished Admiralty. It might also interest you use the "No Retreat" doctrine as well.

But assuming you don't want to do that, I would finish the Supremacy Tree as your second tradition tree, as it contains a lot of helpful bonuses (including a solid +10% fire-rate). You will probably also like to note that Harmony has a bonus to combat in defensive wars in home territory, which it sounds like it might be what you're talking about.

Otherwise you may want to prioritize military techs as well. Last thing you want to be is your ships to be out-dated. You will also need to focus heavily on alloys to make sure you always have up-to-date ships, and of course can construct additional ships.

When expanding, carefully consider what territory you grab. Any planets that are on hyperlanes they HAVE to go through to get to the rest of your space are excellent candidates for Defense Starbases and Fortress Worlds: which are highly valuable. Starbases can be in short supply early to mid game, so you may not have enough anchorages to support a fleet size you'd feel safe with. Fortress worlds both act as a massive wall while your and your ally's fleets group up, AND they increase naval capacity by quite a lot. They do have a weakness: Raiding bombardment. So take note if your enemy is either Barbaric Despoiler or Authoritarian/Xenophobic/Gestalt; they might (definitely if barbaric) be able to raid you and leave the fortresses un-staffed.

Again you'll really want a high alloy income if you're super scared of invasions: the more alloys you have the more defense platforms you can spam around. I would take mineral-boosting traits to help fund this.

If one of you goes tech-heavy, consider getting the Enigmatic Engineering ascension perk. This does two nice things: 1. A sensor range increase, which may allow you to see fleets before they attack you and allow you to design ships to counter theirs. 2. They can't steal any tech you research via debris. This allows you to maintain a tech advantage. Unfortunately, I don't think this works for Federation Fleets.

Speaking of which, I recommend everyone focusing on a different type of ship equipment, or have one empire focus on all combat tech. This is because the highest level combat tech from ANY federation member will be available for Federation Fleets. Very powerful. Obviously don't neglect your own combat tech, but if each empire rushes a different tech, Federation Fleet benefits from all three at the same time.

Do take note: no starting AI doesn't mean there won't be ANY AI's ever. I assume they'll turn off Pre-FTL civilizations, but some events still spawn AI empires, and the "Liberation" casus belli can create AI empires. BUUUUT I wouldn't rely on an AI empire to get anything done right, so if I were you I'd just conquer what you want.

Do remember it IS a multiplayer game, with multiple other players. I don't know how well you know everyone, but you three may not be alone against all 7 of the others. You might not the be only ones to want to be peaceful (hell you almost certainly will have an Inward Perfectionist, and/or someone playing Agrarian Idyll). You may find others willing to join the Federation. Even if you don't trust them, they may just want a temporary non-aggression so they can fight off a rival without worrying about you invading from behind. If they try to secure association status and then use it to start expanding, I'd do the same so that they don't grow while you stay stagnant.

But if for some reason everyone seems to be hostile, they're probably also going to be against eachother as well. I'll be blunt: if it's 7 players against 3, I wouldn't play with them XD. Different groups have different feelings about having war declared on. Some just see it as part of the game and don't hold you jumping to take land because they were idiots and didn't build their fleet up, but others will remember your war declaration 300 years later. And some times a bunch of people expecting a "Free For All" will immediately locate the federation with 3 players absolutely working together and makes sure to take them out first so they can have their "Free For All". And sometimes they'll be scared of trying to take on 3 people at once because the second they do, their other two neighbors will instantly invade them, meaning they'd have to fight half the galaxy.

I'm not nearly as helpful with handling diplomacy since I think in Realpolitik, but use your own judgement for that.
 

KingAlamar

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It sounds somewhat like you may want to role-play a little while the others are cut throat. IF that happens to be true then the odds of being disappointed by a very militaristic empire facerolling your xenophile empire is fairly high. It's even possible one or more of you could be eliminated really early [before you even meet each other].

If you're a set of role players I'd do what you can to find like-minded people.
 

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if you can, take determined assimilator and wreck them all with, from my perspective, the most OP faction of the game
 
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TheHolyAsdf

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Thanks for the help RoverStorm, some brilliant ideas. I was thinking to each one of us choose different habitability preferences, so when our species migrate around, we can skip the terraforming part when colonising by using each other's species

And no, I'm not particularly interested in roleplaying. But I do feel playing as fanatical xenophiles. It has been a while since I played a conquering empire because I grew a distaste for non government aligned factions that you procure throughout your conquest.
 

slv

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Since I am mostly playing multiplayer (usually cutthroat non-roleplay multiplayer) so I may have some helpful advice. A lot of it may sound opiniated and weird from singleplayer perspective and feel free to not follow any of it, it's just a synopsys of my experiences. I don't know how "veteran" are these veteran players and how aggressive they can be. While to a newcomer to MP attacking a neighbour in 2230 may sound early, it's not infrequent to be conquered as soon as 2208, my advice would assume they are cutthroat even by my standards.

First of all, the best way to learn how to not die to early rush is trying to make an early rush yourself (you can test it vs AI), that way you can see the weak spots and what do you need to expect. Start a new game with race with industrious+agrarian, switch everything into militarized economy (do not use nutritional plentitude), build a mineral district and as many alloy foundries as you can (in many cases it is advisable to override lab/artisan building to fit an extra alloy foundry), build at most one outpost (to save alloys). Your first tradition should be supremacy. Build few more science ships to scout neighbours. Then at some point start producing ships from two shipyards (all your starbases should be either shipyards or anchorages), build 4-6 troops, claim your neighbour's capital and invade it. This way you should be able to have 20-30 ships in 2208 (depending how optimally do you do everything) or around 40 ships in 2212. This is what you should be prepared against, most people aren't going to do fully dedicated rush but it's handy to know that it exists and what is the fleetsize you need to be prepared against.

To defend against early aggression first of all you need to figure out if it's coming. Explore your neighbours, if you see he has too few outposts, he is saving alloys. If you see they have less colonies than you either they are bad or they are are saving alloys. Offer a non-aggression pact, if they refuse they likely want to kill you (even if they make a "I don't want to waste influence" excuse). If you offer a trade deal you can check their alloy stockpile/income in diplomacy screen, if you see it's way larger than yours, you might be a target, start spamming foundries everywhere and try to catch up. Keep checking their alloy stockpile once every 2 months to know when did they order their fleet and prepare yours when you see that they suddenly managed to spend 3000 alloys in one month.

In an early game war invader cares only about your pops, they wouldn't bother conquering or even claiming worthless planetless systems, their main battle prize is your capital, so you have to fortify it most of all. Replace your trademodule with gun station (in many cases it's better to replace both modules with gun station and have shipyard elsewhere) and position your fleet behind the starbase, so if enemy wants to attack your fleet they will have to engage starbase first. When starbase's shields are almost depleted, engage with your fleet. If you do everything well you should be able to defeat 40-corvette fleet with 25-30 corvette fleet so you have a defensive advantage. Still, you need to have defensive fleet, gun stations alone won't cut it if they dedicate to killing you.

Chokepoints may help vs ai but a smart human will just fly around your starbase, so there is little point in creating a fortified starbase outside of your capital. One more weird thing, frequently people offer you to become their tributary/subsidiary. If it happens, check their military power/alloy count before opening the diplomatic message. If it looks as your enemy has bigger fleet I heavily advise you to just accept the offer. Sure, taxes will hurt your economy a lot, but if you refuse they are going to claim your capital, then declare tributary war. After you lose it you will not only become a tributary (which will cause you to pay taxes) you will also lose your capital which will probably contribute to being 80%+ of your economy. On the other hand if you accept you can later engage in a war together with your sovereign and by doing a timely betrayal you can come back. Also I heavily advise you to talk to people, if you see an aggressive warmonger nearby you can often be more useful as an ally, for example you can talk them into exporting alloys to you in exchange of energy/consumer goods (remember, they will have militarized economy so it can be profitable for them).

Once early game rush is dealt with, you should procede playing as normal, economy development isn't that different between multiplayer and singleplayer (although to be fair a lot of people are going to mismanage it), one thing which can sound weird for many is that Megacorps are one of the best (probably the best) empire for early game rushing and for defending against rush. They start with 4 more pops than normal empries making their economy better (don't forget to replace commercial zones with something useful) and private colony ships allow them to expand while saving precious alloys, so you are able to both be safe against enemy and be growing at a steady pace. Main advice I would give you is to have 0 clerks throughout the whole game. Also for a while it's better to produce food and sell it to get energy rather than produce energy itself. One surpsingly useful MP civic is technocracy. If you are playing with cutthroat players, everyone should be in a constant sense of fear and be afraid of dyign at all stages of the game, that makes spamming labs highly punishable, if you see there is a neighbour which has no alloys and is probably spamming labs he is an easy food and once he is dead all those labs will be yours. Because of that, alloy-lab ratios are higher than in singleplayer, so bonus from science director ruler job contributes to a lot more. One of my favourite strategies in MP is to play technocracy, don't die in early game and try to rush for fastest neutron launchers (neutron launchers are the strongest lategame weapon in the game from cutthroat MP perspective, a person who gets them first has a huge advantage over opposition).

P.S. I head you saying smth about terraforming, I m pretty sure that it's not that important, it's better to colonise planets even if they have low habitation (especially if you are playign agrarian-industrious race which I highly suggest) rather than wait for an eternity before you have terraform techs and energy.
 

RoverStorm

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It has been a while since I played a conquering empire because I grew a distaste for non government aligned factions that you procure throughout your conquest.
Obviously if you hate factions that pop up when you conquer land, I must recommend authoritarian/xenophobe ethics. Just set the newly conquered species to full slavery (you can even set the default to slavery so you don't need to remember every time). Slaves can't join factions, which means they won't instantly spawn some disgusting egalitarian faction with 0 happiness. In fact sometimes being enslaved makes them HAPPIER than being part of a faction.

There are two downsides.

1. Slaves can't work Ruler/Specialist jobs. You can fix this by resettling pops with ethics you like to the planet.

2. Slaves are normally unhappy and crash the stability of an entire planet is slaves. You can fix this by resettling happy pops or making slaves happy.

However I should probably warn you that the political power calculations are wrong. If it says slaves have -75% political power (or 0.25) and rulers have +900% (10), that sadly doesn't mean that one happy ruler will offset the unhappy slaves and balance the stability. For some reason Paradox has hard-coded it so that happy pops can never have more than 2 political power (+100%) and unhappy pops can never have less than 0.5 (-50%). This means you can't just use happy pops to keep a slave planet stable. You either needs lots of happy pops or you need to make the slaves happy. I recommend switching the slavery type of newly conquered pops to "Domestic Servitude". You are losing 10% output, but this is normally fixed by the planet hitting comically high levels of amenities, because the slaves can still work entertainer jobs and then all the un-employed slaves that were previously rulers/specialists become a special no-limit "Servant" job, which also increases amenities.

I was thinking to each one of us choose different habitability preferences, so when our species migrate around, we can skip the terraforming part when colonising by using each other's species
Very smart. If you want maximum efficiency, I would recommend everyone design different special species as well. One can be super-smart and get leader lifespan bonuses, one can be charismatic and traditional, you get the idea. Bonus points for Syncretic Evolution and Post-Apocalyptic. The Serville's trait from syncretic is extremely powerful if shared with all of you, since only one of you spends the civic slot for all three to get an extremely good worker pop and won't create sub-par leaders. Post-apocalyptic is decent at the moment because it gives Tomb World Habitability, which is +80% habitability on Tomb World and +60% everywhere else (but Paradox has declared this unintentional and to be fixed later, so they might consider this an exploit. Personally I think losing a civic slot for what amounts late-game to +10 lifespan is really bad, but with Tomb World Habitability it's much better).

If you want to REALLY maximize efficiency and all three of you are perfectly happy to work together to maximum outcome, consider all three of you going different ascension paths as well. At least one of you goes psionic and at least one of you goes genetic evolution. Those two paths play nice with eachother, and I believe this means you can psionically awaken a super-genetic species. Having leaders with TWO super-traits is extremely good. Sadly I believe they fixed Cyborgs being able to become Psionic and vice versus, so you can't do the triple trait perfecto anymore. It's easy to get a genetically evolved empire to mod your species to what you want. My preferred method is to build a habitat on the border with them, give them some of your species, let them super-mod to how you want them, and then they give the habitat back. You MIGHT be able to then just apply that genetically-upgraded species to the rest of your pops if you have unlocked the gene-modding tech as well, but not having enough trait points could prevent you as well. If that's the case, you can just choose only to grow the new genetic pop, and let the old ones become a minority. Psionic is similar: give the psionic empire the pops, let them psionically awaken, take the pops back. I have no idea if you can just "apply" this "subspecies format" to your pops once getting it, but if not, again just choose those pops to grow and let the old ones become a minority.

P.S. I head you saying smth about terraforming, I m pretty sure that it's not that important, it's better to colonise planets even if they have low habitation (especially if you are playign agrarian-industrious race which I highly suggest) rather than wait for an eternity before you have terraform techs and energy.
Yes always colonize low-habitability planets. You mentioned each player will be taking a different species: this is perfect. You won't need to worry about low habitability then. Even if you need to colonize some low-habitability planets early, you can fix this later with new pops.

Chokepoints may help vs ai but a smart human will just fly around your starbase, so there is little point in creating a fortified starbase outside of your capital.
This is true until you get "Warp inhibitor" technology. After that point, Starbases will prevent fleets from going onward until they're captured. The same will go for a planet with a Fortress. Absolutely focus all efforts on protecting your capital early-game, unless for some reason the planets you grabbed are WAY better, like a size 25 Gaia world with lots and lots of districts. Actually if you get one of those (and it's not a Holy World), I might honestly resettle most of my capital pops there and transfer my capital.
 

TheHolyAsdf

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Very nice advice both of you guys, actually pretty enlightening. I generally find it difficult to find MP games cause I live far away from US and Europe and get kicked for lag. Thanks again
 

TheHolyAsdf

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I do have a question thought, slv said that I should have zero clerks. Why is that? Since the 2.2 update, clerks perhaps make the biggest part of my empire's workforce. I do not build civilian industries or any energy districts of buildings and rely primarily on trade and consumer benefits trade policy for consumer goods and energy, it's big a reason why I've largely stuck with fanatic xenophile.
 

Derp

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I do have a question thought, slv said that I should have zero clerks. Why is that? Since the 2.2 update, clerks perhaps make the biggest part of my empire's workforce. I do not build civilian industries or any energy districts of buildings and rely primarily on trade and consumer benefits trade policy for consumer goods and energy, it's big a reason why I've largely stuck with fanatic xenophile.
for the first half or so of the game your economic growth is hard checked by pop count, and clerks produce very little per pop
 

slv

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Exactly as Derp said, clerks are not efficient per-job and during most of the game you care about efficiency per-job. While clerks serve as some sort of jack-of-all-trades, creating energy and consumer goods and amenities, you better be splitting roles and turning those clerks into a mix of entertainers/artisans/technicians and you will end up with more production overall.

For simplicity I will assume you have a race with no bonuses and decent living standards (the outcome will be the same even with traits, but this way it's easier to run the numbers).

Entertainer consumes 1.5cons goods, 1 energy (building upkeep) 1 food and creates 10 amenities and 2 unity
Technician consumes 0.25 cons goods, 1 food and creates 3.5 energy
Clerk consumes 1 food and creates 1 energy, 0.25 consumer goods and 2 amenities
Miner consumes 0.25 cons goods, 0.5 energy (district upkeep) 1 food and creates 4 minerals
Artisan consumes 1 food, 2 energy, 6 minerals and creates 5.5 consumer goods


4 Entertainers, 2 artisans , 3 miners and 11 technicians create
27 energy, 4 unity, 40 amenities, 4.5 cons goods and eat 20 food

20 clerks will create
20 energy, 40 amenities, 5 cons goods and eat 20 food

So you will end up having more energy, unity if you make your clerks work real jobs (technically slightly less consumer goods in this particular example but by changing the ratio of artisans you can fix it by creating slightly less energy). Also if instead of having technicians you would be trading food for energy the clerks would end up being even worse.
 

TheHolyAsdf

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I've had a strong preference for clerks since they produce consumer goods/unity/amenities out of nothing as well as produce lots of jobs for planets with high levels of population. But I suppose this only works late game. I don't suppose being fanatical xenophile + thrifty makes it more viable in the early game?

I take it generator districts are better in comparison to commerce zones
 

RoverStorm

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By far the biggest problem with clerks is they just don't scale. That example above assumed no bonuses at all. Trade is NOT increased by any "Job Output" bonuses, so basically the only thing that affects it is the "Thrifty" trait, the Galactic Stock building, and high stability. Amenities are even harder, basically just charismatic, a single tech, a tradition or two, and the decision from the Artists. Meanwhile all those other jobs (except entertainers) quickly get scaling output from technology.

Sometimes they can help as a stop-gap if you just need the pops to do any job at all, but they simply are less efficient than other jobs. And this becomes absolute once you get bonuses for other jobs.


I don't suppose being fanatical xenophile + thrifty makes it more viable in the early game?
Eh....maybe if you add in merchant guilds civic. There might be an argument to be made for a merchant guilds fanatic xenophile thrifty+traditional build with the unity trade policy. That might work as a decently high energy and unity output empire. It would be a weird build, since you'd be trying to get as many merchants as possible. Heavy focus on city districts and level 2 trade centers, and don't forget that prosperity finisher.

Maybe. I need to try that in single player.
 

Derp

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I've had a strong preference for clerks since they produce consumer goods/unity/amenities out of nothing as well as produce lots of jobs for planets with high levels of population. But I suppose this only works late game. I don't suppose being fanatical xenophile + thrifty makes it more viable in the early game?

I take it generator districts are better in comparison to commerce zones
they're only worth using if you can't/won't resettle, or if it's physically impossible to expand your non-trade economy any more

if a single world has unemployed pops and no room to grow, resettle them to a developing world
 

RoverStorm

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Going to go fanatical egalitarian then
So Egalitarian has some amazing bonuses. +5-10% specialist output is massive. Just think: this affects refineries, alloys, science, all those really good jobs. The faction influence increase is also powerful. You also get access to fairly powerful civics, such as +5% happiness and +15% unity (if you go democratic). You might also take interest in a relatively powerful combo: Shared Burdens and Byzantine Bureaucracy. Usually BB's weakness is having to pay full con. goods on more rulers; something shared burden ignores.

BUT I despise egalitarian with a burning passion: The Faction. IT is the most infuriating faction in existence. By far one of the most valuable policies is population controls, which having that turned on immediately incurs a -20 happiness from the Egalitarian faction. You also can't use the leader enhancement policies; those ones that increase leader level cap. They also get a -10 if you have resettlement turned on, or ANY species with rights has migration control turned on.

At least as an egalitarian democracy/oligarch, you won't have a base happiness of 0.

Just, ugh. Anyone who wants to try and optimize their pops knows my pain with trying to handle the Egalitarian faction. Sadly the ethic is in fact way better than xenophile in multiplayer, since without AI's the opinion boost is worthless and the diplomatic upkeep is either good or worthless. Meanwhile Egalitarian still gives bonus influence from factions AND one of the best resource boosts in the game.
 

Kryndude

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So according to people who play in competitive MP setting;

1. Clerks are bad unless you don't have any more room to grow, which pretty much means that they're bad for the most of the game.
2. Habitability doesn't matter.
3. Alloy is everything, and Neutron Launcher is the best.

I think we're reaching a consensus on what the perfect min-max playstyle is.
 
Last edited:

TheHolyAsdf

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Why would neutron launcher be the best exactly? I fill my ships up with shields every game I have played as far as i know. What if I spam corvettes? Or use cloud lighting + arc?
 

RoverStorm

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What if I spam corvettes?
I believe they are super-weak against missiles since now the missiles can re-target if their first target dies.
Or use cloud lighting + arc?
I love this, but the exact damage is random. Sometimes you'll wipe everyone in the first volley. Sometimes you'll spit three rounds of pillows at them.
Why would neutron launcher be the best exactly? I fill my ships up with shields every game I have played as far as i know.
I have no clue since I'm not up-to-date on current meta's, but from the wiki, I would guess it's because Armor doesn't need strategic resource upkeep. Additionally, Neutron Launchers have an incredibly high up-front damage, but a low fire-rate. So I believe the current meta is probably to get battleships loaded with a crap-ton of neutron launchers and try to snipe as many enemies in the first volley.