Stellaris: Origin DLC Change

[Vexcine]

Utopia gave players access to Megastructures, with Megacorp adding more.

Federations adds only the Megashipyard, so why do the origins "Shattered Ring" and "Void Dwellers" require Federations to use? That's like making Post-Apocalyptic and Life-Seeded require Synthetic Dawn instead of Apocalypse. For the federation starts it makes sense to need Federations, but not for the Megastructure starts.

 

[Lykus Cerebros]

Federations also added the origins itself. I guess that's the logic behind it. Not saying yours doesn't make more sense.

 

[Vexcine]

Federations also added the origins itself. I guess that's the logic behind it. Not saying yours doesn't make more sense.

Even then some Origins (like Life-Seeded and Post-Apocalyptic require the Apocalypse DLC, Calamitous Birth needs Lithoids, Resource Consolidation = Synthetic Dawn) require players to collect other DLC like Pokémon cards to use some Origins. Looking at it again I don't see why they put Doomsday as Federations when it seems like an Apocalypse thing to be.

I don't know just something that's bothered me since Federations came out

 

[Lykus Cerebros]

The federations DLC itself would maybe be a bit light without that.

Those two origins offer quite distinct playstyles and are at least for me my favourites among all.
So I kind of get why paradox decided to lock them behind the newer DLCs. Without them federations would only add the different federation types and one origin (hegemony).

 

[Vexcine]

Yeah it makes sense from a company standpoint but when you already (basically) require your players to get 2-3 new DLCs every half year it just seems a bit tight with the leash.

The new Federation types and the federation starts on their own are good enough for a DLC, but purchasing the designated megastructure DLC and not getting the megastructure start with it seems a bit offlandish. Megacorp also adds some new megastructures with it and definitely it could've just been added to Utopia. But oh well.

Hopefully in the future they just re-add to past DLCs instead of making new ones that add stuff that could've been put in the past, which seems to be what the custodians are doing now (loving it).

 

[DukeLeto42]

The general approach for origins was:

1. Convert civics from older content that should really be origins into origins, keeping original DLC locks. This meant that old DLC were not cheapened by their origins being unlocked by other DLC and that players did not feel cheated by their favorite civic suddenly made into an origin locked behind a new DLC.
2. Introduce a suite of new, largely generic (i.e. most empire types could use them), origins to the game, some of which are locked behind the DLC, as origins were one of the major features of the concurrent update to Federations. This, as Lykus Cerebros notes above, gave heft to a DLC that otherwise would only benefit Federation-based playstyles and befits a DLC that came with the inauguration of the Origin System.
3. Add a couple civics that only work with specific empire types into their respective DLCs - for example, "Calamitous Birth" might require Lithoids, but seeing as the origin is only compatible with Lithoids' content, that's irrelevant. Same goes for Synthetic Dawn's Resource Consolidation. They could have locked them behind the Federation DLC, but that would be kind of shitty to do.
4. New origins should be expected for future DLC, likely more consistently themed for that DLC.

This results in a confusing mix of origin access, but the problem is less that origins are poorly themed for which DLC they're found under, and more that the entire system was added to the game so late, so a great deal of both paid and free content had to be rebuilt around the system.

 

[Ryika]

The new Federation types and the federation starts on their own are good enough for a DLC, but purchasing the designated megastructure DLC and not getting the megastructure start with it seems a bit offlandish. Megacorp also adds some new megastructures with it and definitely it could've just been added to Utopia. But oh well.

There is no such thing as a "designated megastructure DLC" though, since DLCs are largely built around themes, not features.

 

[Vexcine]

The general approach for origins was:

1. Convert civics from older content that should really be origins into origins, keeping original DLC locks. This meant that old DLC were not cheapened by their origins being unlocked by other DLC and that players did not feel cheated by their favorite civic suddenly made into an origin locked behind a new DLC.
2. Introduce a suite of new, largely generic (i.e. most empire types could use them), origins to the game, some of which are locked behind the DLC, as origins were one of the major features of the concurrent update to Federations. This, as Lykus Cerebros notes above, gave heft to a DLC that otherwise would only benefit Federation-based playstyles and befits a DLC that came with the inauguration of the Origin System.
3. Add a couple civics that only work with specific empire types into their respective DLCs - for example, "Calamitous Birth" might require Lithoids, but seeing as the origin is only compatible with Lithoids' content, that's irrelevant. Same goes for Synthetic Dawn's Resource Consolidation. They could have locked them behind the Federation DLC, but that would be kind of shitty to do.
4. New origins should be expected for future DLC, likely more consistently themed for that DLC.

This results in a confusing mix of origin access, but the problem is less that origins are poorly themed for which DLC they're found under, and more that the entire system was added to the game so late, so a great deal of both paid and free content had to be rebuilt around the system.

Personally I think they should've made Federations seperate from Origins, 2 different DLCs. Because making a DLC that reworks Federations (didn't it also add the Galatic Community or did it just come along side it as free?) and realizing that you don't have enough content to push it for a full $20 expansion instead of the $10 DLC so you add another DLC into it to make it an expansion to get more people to buy it is a terrible move imo.

While Stellaris is easily one of my top 5 games and isn't nearly enough to make me stop playing, it just seems like they could've made it work/flow better.

 

[Vexcine]

There is no such thing as a "designated megastructure DLC" though, since DLCs are largely built around themes, not features.

Utopia's whole gimmick was Megastructures and Ascension Perks. And Hive Minds. So adding anything to do with a combo of these to the game would make sense to put into these DLCs. And definitely something like Nemesis that adds that WHOLE plethora of content to do with being the endgame crisis should not be put into past expansions, it just seems like Paradox slapped the Origins title on Federations and that was the reason some things are only obtainable through Federations. They weren't entirely against this as they did add some origins into past DLCs (ie. Apocalypse), so for the whole thing about Federations to lock some non federation inside of it doesn't seem entirely right

 

[Ryika]

Utopia's whole gimmick was Megastructures and Ascension Perks. And Hive Minds. So adding anything to do with a combo of these to the game would make sense to put into these DLCs.

I don't see why. Utopia was the first DLC that added Megastructures. Megacorp was the second one. Federations was the third one, and then there's also some Ancient Relic integration.

And definitely something like Nemesis that adds that WHOLE plethora of content to do with being the endgame crisis should not be put into past expansions, it just seems like Paradox slapped the Origins title on Federations and that was the reason some things are only obtainable through Federations. They weren't entirely against this as they did add some origins into past DLCs (ie. Apocalypse), so for the whole thing about Federations to lock some non federation inside of it doesn't seem entirely right

Well, you say how things "should" be a lot, but as far as I can see, so far you haven't really provided an explanation for why that is. It seems like that's just how you feel it should work, but that's not really a convincing argument.

Sure, things would be more "ordered" if they did that, but at the same time, it would also create a huge incentive against expanding features from DLCs that are already packed full of value. If, for example, all Megastructures were moved to the Utopia DLC, and then a dev comes up with an idea for a cool, new Megastructure, why would they add it, if that DLC is already saturated anyway and if that's the only "proper" location - by your logic - to put the thing? Surely, the incentive would be to instead work on new features for a new dlc, and I don't think that's a good solution.

The Origin situation is a big sketchy because some of it is technically old content that was available to everybody, lightly reworked and put behind a paywall. But as far as new content is concerned, in my opinion they should just put it where they feel the value is needed the most, without artificial limitations and classifications such as "Megastructure DLC". You frame it as having to buy a bunch of extra dlcs, but you can also look at it from the other side: For anyone who already owns the older dlc, it's actually just free extra content.

 

[Vexcine]

I don't see why. Utopia was the first DLC that added Megastructures. Megacorp was the second one. Federations was the third one, and then there's also some Ancient Relic integration.


Well, you say how things "should" be a lot, but as far as I can see, so far you haven't really provided an explanation for why that is. It seems like that's just how you feel it should work, but that's not really a convincing argument.

Sure, things would be more "ordered" if they did that, but at the same time, it would also create a huge incentive against expanding features from DLCs that are already packed full of value. If, for example, all Megastructures were moved to the Utopia DLC, and then a dev comes up with an idea for a cool, new Megastructure, why would they add it, if that DLC is already saturated anyway and if that's the only "proper" location - by your logic - to put the thing? Surely, the incentive would be to instead work on new features for a new dlc, and I don't think that's a good solution.

The Origin situation is a big sketchy because some of it is technically old content that was available to everybody, lightly reworked and put behind a paywall. But as far as new content is concerned, in my opinion they should just put it where they feel the value is needed the most, without artificial limitations and classifications such as "Megastructure DLC". You frame it as having to buy a bunch of extra dlcs, but you can also look at it from the other side: For anyone who already owns the older dlc, it's actually just free extra content.

Why should it be? Because it'd be ordered so much more easier that way. So that new players don't see 20 DLCs and go "well no". So that players don't have to sit there and go "hey bought Megacorp and Utopia for the megastructures. Guess I have to buy ANOTHER $20 expansion just to fully utilize them.

Right now Stellaris is sitting at a $140 game on Xbox (which is behind an expansion pass, understandable though as it takes time to port a game, so when pass 5 comes out it'll be a $165 game). $140 just to have the ability to play the game to the fullest. You buy the $40 game, you enjoy it. But in order to enjoy it to the maximum, visit everything in the game, you have to drop an extra 100 to 125 more. With the ability to just categorize each new DLC into an already existing Expansion, or make an entirely new Expansion to overview DLCs, I believe the game would be much more comprehensible and not just a money pit to new/returning players.

I perfectly understand why they put other DLC like things into their new expansions, to maximize profits. And that makes perfect sense. But when you completely forgo what the originally message or viewpoint an expansion/DLC had, it kinda just removes the purpose of having that title for it.

For example, if they added more origins in the future. Just some random filler stuff to go along with a new Expansion. This expansion (just for the sake of arguing) would be about reworking how trading and trade value work. These new origins have nothing to do with the trade expansion (except maybe 1). So wouldn't it make sense to just through them into the Origin/Federation Expansion?
• They are already doing this with civics, origins, and traits (plantoids, clone origin, catalyst processing) with the custodians.

So why should they do this? To make the game less of a money pit, to not have players running in circles trying to find out which DLCs do what, and prevent DLCs/Expansions from overlapping or contradicting themselves.

 

[DukeLeto42]

Personally I think they should've made Federations seperate from Origins, 2 different DLCs. Because making a DLC that reworks Federations (didn't it also add the Galatic Community or did it just come along side it as free?) and realizing that you don't have enough content to push it for a full $20 expansion instead of the $10 DLC so you add another DLC into it to make it an expansion to get more people to buy it is a terrible move imo.

Except that Origins were introduced at the same point in the development of the game as an improved Federation system (and yes, also the majority of GC systems). So, what you're really saying you wanted was for Paradox, which has been on an ~6 month cycle for its DLC releases, to either have sat on either Origins or improved Federations for 6 months, or to release multiple DLCs at once to parse the features of the Federations DLC into little (and by the nature of such products, probably more expensive on the whole) packages.

 

[Vexcine]

Except that Origins were introduced at the same point in the development of the game as an improved Federation system (and yes, also the majority of GC systems). So, what you're really saying you wanted was for Paradox, which has been on an ~6 month cycle for its DLC releases, to either have sat on either Origins or improved Federations for 6 months, or to release multiple DLCs at once to parse the features of the Federations DLC into little (and by the nature of such products, probably more expensive on the whole) packages.

No they easily could've just separated them and released them together. Nowhere did I say to pause the development of a DLC

My only issue with the game is just how DLCs that released with a purpose of some sort just to release another DLC that adds onto it (but not alongside) instead of just adding that content to the past DLC.

 

[DukeLeto42]

For example, if they added more origins in the future. Just some random filler stuff to go along with a new Expansion. This expansion (just for the sake of arguing) would be about reworking how trading and trade value work. These new origins have nothing to do with the trade expansion (except maybe 1). So wouldn't it make sense to just through them into the Origin/Federation Expansion?

My only issue with the game is just how DLCs that released with a purpose of some sort just to release another DLC that adds onto it (but not alongside) instead of just adding that content to the past DLC.

This was a major lesson of the Utopia DLC, and they mentioned it in their dev diaries when they pulled Ascension Perks from behind the Utopia paywall. What they learned was that creating core systems and hiding the entirety of it behind the paywall means new systems can't intersect with it - for ascension perks, this meant future DLCs couldn't take advantage of ascension perks as a way to add new content (because they're behind different paywalls - this means everything from Planet Destroyers to Resource Consolidation would need to be accessed through unique systems).

They learned from their lesson here, making Origins a universal system, recasting appropriate civics from old DLC as origins (and putting them behind the paywall so original buyers of the DLC didn't suffer for it), and offering some special toys for the new system in the system's inaugural DLC.

 

[Vexcine]

This was a major lesson of the Utopia DLC, and they mentioned it in their dev diaries when they pulled Ascension Perks from behind the Utopia paywall. What they learned was that creating core systems and hiding the entirety of it behind the paywall means new systems can't intersect with it - for ascension perks, this meant future DLCs couldn't take advantage of ascension perks as a way to add new content (because they're behind different paywalls - this means everything from Planet Destroyers to Resource Consolidation would need to be accessed through unique systems).

They learned from their lesson here, making Origins a universal system, recasting appropriate civics from old DLC as origins (and putting them behind the paywall so original buyers of the DLC didn't suffer for it), and offering some special toys for the new system in the system's inaugural DLC.

That's my bad for being wrong, I only just started reading the Dev Diaries, which is why I made this post instead of going through hundreds of posts to look for my answer (sadly a quick Google search didn't help me).

But still, if Utopia added Habitats and Ringworlds, wouldn't it make sense to transfer them over to Utopia instead of in Federations. Yes it makes sense as Federations came with Origins, but the megastructures have nothing to do with the baseline of Federations. If an origin started you with a megashipyard then yea throw it with Federations, as they added them. As you said they have reworked past DLCs. It just seems since one DLC added something specific that another one shouldn't be able to take that away or gatekeep some aspects of it.

Kind of like buying a $10 toy, just for it not to have batteries, so you go out and buy batteries. But the toy and batteries in this case are worth $20 each. Just quality of life improvement is all

Edit: Hopefully before it comes across wrong I do not mean that Utopia should have ALL Megastructures. Like Nemesis adds the galaxy killer one. They can have that. If a DLC comes out and adds a Megastructure that adds to the overall topic of the DLC then yea keep it there. But when Federations blocks you from starting with a ringworld even though you bought the ringworld DLC it just appears as a scam

 

[Ryika]

Edit: Hopefully before it comes across wrong I do not mean that Utopia should have ALL Megastructures. Like Nemesis adds the galaxy killer one. They can have that. If a DLC comes out and adds a Megastructure that adds to the overall topic of the DLC then yea keep it there. But when Federations blocks you from starting with a ringworld even though you bought the ringworld DLC it just appears as a scam

You did not buy the ringworld dlc. You bought a dlc that allowed you to construct ringworlds in the late game. That is still an exclusive part of the dlc that you bought.

Now another DLC allows you to start on a ringworld. This has nothing to do at all with the feature you bought, it does not interact with it and is not required for your feature to continue working. It just makes use of a megastructure in a completely different way. This is especially true since Ring Worlds weren't even exclusive to Utopia in the first place: You can find ruined ones in the galaxy, and one of the Precursors also ends with unlocking one.

So... you feel like you got scammed, but what actually appears to have happened is that new content was created and you're angry because you didn't get it for free.

 

[Vexcine]

You did not buy the ringworld dlc. You bought a dlc that allowed you to construct ringworlds in the late game. That is still an exclusive part of the dlc that you bought.

Now another DLC allows you to start on a ringworld. This has nothing to do at all with the feature you bought, it does not interact with it and is not required for your feature to continue working. It just makes use of a megastructure in a completely different way. This is especially true since Ring Worlds weren't even exclusive to Utopia in the first place: You can find ruined ones in the galaxy, and one of the Precursors also ends with unlocking one.

So... you feel like you got scammed, but what actually appears to have happened is that new content was created and you're angry because you didn't get it for free.

I didn't feel like I didn't get it for free, I feel as though I got played for my money, I payed $20 for what I thought to be the ability to utilize ringworlds, something stated in the description of Utopia. So when another DLC came around and added something to ringworlds of course I'm going to feel scammed.

So what you're saying is that every single origin should be exclusive to Federations and none should be able to get for free except the basic Unification one? Since Federations added those origins into the game and they weren't there at the launch of the other DLCs. They removed Mechanist as a Civic and put it as an Origin with Federations, so you should be required to have Federations to use any and all Origins by your argument right?

 

[Vexcine]

You did not buy the ringworld dlc. You bought a dlc that allowed you to construct ringworlds in the late game. That is still an exclusive part of the dlc that you bought.

Now another DLC allows you to start on a ringworld. This has nothing to do at all with the feature you bought, it does not interact with it and is not required for your feature to continue working. It just makes use of a megastructure in a completely different way. This is especially true since Ring Worlds weren't even exclusive to Utopia in the first place: You can find ruined ones in the galaxy, and one of the Precursors also ends with unlocking one.

So... you feel like you got scammed, but what actually appears to have happened is that new content was created and you're angry because you didn't get it for free.

They obviously don't mind giving out some Origins to other DLCs, such as the Apocalypse ones, as they fight those themes. If DLCs are fitted around themes and not features as you yourself have said then why does Shattered Ring and Void Dwellers require Federations? They don't fit that theme.

 

[Me_]

It's rather unlikely that they would change this around at this point. Consider this legacy issues.