Stellaris Needs Less Habitable Worlds

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TwiceAHuman

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I have a gut feeling that this thread will gain more " "respectfully" disagree " than all threads that disagree with Utopia's changes combined, but I feel compelled to try anyway.

Simply put, the current amount of habitable worlds ruins the game. The examples are more numerous than one may assume. Let's begin with the most harmless: they ruin the planet 'personality'. No matter how special the planet is, it matters little. In fact, when you run a 75-planet empire and a special story event pops up, you can't find the planet it happens on and truth be told, neither do you care at that point. Now, let's delve a bit further. What happens when you start a game and have 10-15 potentially habitable worlds of different sizes? Planets no longer feel precious. In fact, 'planet market' is so oversaturated that some people refuse to colonize anything but 20 or more tile worlds and yet their empires still bloat beyond measure. Planets are so cheap, so expendable that almost anything in game has more value. Literally anything. While in the early game one mire or less cares about the expansion, in the middle game several planets already feel inferior to 30 corvettes, because if those get destroyed, your friendly neighbor Mext-Puct Republic as highly moral spiritualist seekers they are will declare war on you, burn your cities, throw zro on your farms so they never grow again, then forbid AI, literature and red wallpapers and neuter everything that moves. If something doesn't move, they will move it and then neuter. What will happen if you get a third of your empire occupied by invading armies? Nothing. Literally nothing. Unless they occupy one of your main energy production centers there is no other reason to care but warscore. And now the greatest evil of all... Lag. Habitable worlds cause lagg. Painful, horrible lag. They are the reason late game us so unbearably freezing. Because when even the most primitive nations have 50 worlds, the calculations are enormous. But of course, that's not the final nail in the coffin. The nail is... When each empire has 50 worlds, they can build a fleet of a couple hundred ships. ...And we all know too well what happens when late game a couple of fleet cap 800 empires start waging wars. It's a painful unnecessary exercise in lag that would put the calculations of scientific supercomputers to shame.

So, what do you think? Oh, also one more thing. I play on 25% habitable worlds and it still lags. And nope, my computer is not a potato.
 

Sheriff Godwin Law

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That's odd, I usually crank the number of habitable worlds up to 250% as I'm unhappy with a war unless it's a WW1 era mishmash of alliances and I've found the best way to make sure every player in that war is significant is to give everyone room to grow.

So, what do you think? Oh, also one more thing. I play on 25% habitable worlds and it still lags. And nope, my computer is not a potato.

I know you're saying your computer is not a potato but.. have you tried lowering your graphics settings anyway? Because this definitely sounds like something is wrong.
 

Bankipriel

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That's odd, I usually crank the number of habitable worlds up to 250% as I'm unhappy with a war unless it's a WW1 era mishmash of alliances and I've found the best way to make sure every player in that war is significant is to give everyone room to grow.

I know you're saying your computer is not a potato but.. have you tried lowering your graphics settings anyway?

That is an interesting point you make, of working war-goals to motivate allies. I've never even considered this, because AI fleets are so useless, mallus grows so quickly, and allies are so annoying when they drag you into wars, that I have literally never played a game in ... let me check, 314 hours, where I bothered with to form an alliance.

I can see your point very clearly though. If I were playing a game with a huge number of worlds, just chucking 'em into sectors, and trying to engage the terrible diplomacy (as it stands in 1.4) in this game, I would probably want a high planet count for just the reason you state.

I think the OP, though, is yearning for a very different kind of galactic war and politics, where each planet actually feels important. I'm not sure where the way forward on this issue really is, because it seems like PDX want us scooping up lots of planets and chucking them half-baked into sectors where we will never really think about them again.

Hopefully our capabilities to specialize core systems will continue to grow. The additions in Utopia look amazing in this regard ... so, I guess will see.

@TwiceAHuman: I'd be curious to hear what you think about this issue after you play with the Utopia in 1.5

I've never really been a fan of sectors, and I'm still not. BUT I think that one thing actually do accomplish for us, is allow for a LARGE galaxy, while still keeping our focus on a small number of plants. We just need the tools and strategic building options to make deep, meaningful choices within our core systems, so that they really do feel special =D, and so that they are genuinely worth more, strategically, than numerous sector-held worlds.

I'm really looking forward to seeing how Utopia impacts these aspects of the game-play.
 

Alblaka

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That's why there's a habitable worlds slider.
It innately invalidates any 'we should have more/less habitable worlds' discussions, because it allows anyone to play with their preference.
 

AndragonLea

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Why not turn that around? Instead of taking planets away to make them more unique, add some actual unique legendary modifiers to make some planets stand out more.

All planets should have SOME sort of modifier. ^^
 

TerrBear

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That's odd, I usually crank the number of habitable worlds up to 250% as I'm unhappy with a war unless it's a WW1 era mishmash of alliances and I've found the best way to make sure every player in that war is significant is to give everyone room to grow.



I know you're saying your computer is not a potato but.. have you tried lowering your graphics settings anyway? Because this definitely sounds like something is wrong.
It'd be his CPU most likely than anything else.
 

TwiceAHuman

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That's odd, I usually crank the number of habitable worlds up to 250% as I'm unhappy with a war unless it's a WW1 era mishmash of alliances and I've found the best way to make sure every player in that war is significant is to give everyone room to grow.
I suppose it depends on the galaxy side. If your galaxy is as tiny as a Christmas cookie, then you may indeed need more planets. But I myself have multiple alliances of 7-20+ and they have fairly robust (300-500) fleet caps.


Sheriff Godwin Law said:
I know you're saying your computer is not a potato but.. have you tried lowering your graphics settings anyway? Because this definitely sounds like something is wrong.
It can run fallout 4 without crashes. I think it's powerful enough.
 

BrokenSky

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I would be totally happy with reducing the minimum number of habitable planets on the habitable planet slider, although I generally play on 500% because I like the capacity for tall play introduced in the late game where you fill in all the planets in your borders, and also like the whole sci-fi feel of having 3 planets in a system all with the same name bar a number.
 

General Retreat

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A quick tip for diplomatic play - annexing territory will inevitably result in threat. An alternate option is to liberate a buffer state, vassalise it and then begin integration after 10 years. The low system count will result in rapid integration times, and you can enlarge the empire by ceding systems directly to it though wars in the mean time.

This results in large expansions of directly controlled territory every 10 or so years (if you always have at least 2 vassals you're expanding with). The interesting thing is that currently you only get the 'was at war' opinion malus with the person you actually declared on, not their allies. So long as you let your target retain one system while you beat up the rest of their federation, you'll be able to expand unchecked with no diplomatic malus at all, massively reduced border pressure over time due to the buffer state effect and no 'recently conquered' happiness malus to integrated pops either.

It's a slower pace of game, to be sure, but it also opens up tons of options so far as diplomatic engagements and eliminating mutual threat alliances goes.
 

Naelar

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I don't see why the slider for planets can't go lower or even higher than its current state. Though I've never really thought of it since I play on 250% typically....
 

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I think Stellaris is supposed to be large scale 4X game.Planets are never that interesting anyway in 4x games when it comes down to it.Yeah early game Moo might be but when you get past 10 planets no so much.
 

TwiceAHuman

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I think Stellaris is supposed to be large scale 4X game.Planets are never that interesting anyway in 4x games when it comes down to it.Yeah early game Moo might be but when you get past 10 planets no so much.
Perhaps I will cause a lot of disagreement with this statement, but I do not think that Stellaris should desperately try to copycat all rules and tropes of it's genre, especially if the game does not benefit from them.
 

AndragonLea

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I'd absolutely love to see a "post apocalyptic" galaxy that is populated mostly by barren, toxic and tomb worlds with only a very few conventionally habitable worlds that will be highly contested and heavily fortified.
 

Artaios Greybark

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I agree that the 'new' 100% setting is still a bit high. I will likely lower it in my next game. I personally cannot imagine going lower than 50%, though.
 

Sheriff Godwin Law

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I think the OP, though, is yearning for a very different kind of galactic war and politics, where each planet actually feels important. I'm not sure where the way forward on this issue really is, because it seems like PDX want us scooping up lots of planets and chucking them half-baked into sectors where we will never really think about them again.

Yeah, that does sound like a very interesting game. It's just not this one...

I suppose it depends on the galaxy side. If your galaxy is as tiny as a Christmas cookie, then you may indeed need more planets. But I myself have multiple alliances of 7-20+ and they have fairly robust (300-500) fleet caps.

Oookay, I actually play on huge galaxies with 250% habitability and the maximum number of factions. I get my big messy galactic wars by midgame, when it's still interesting to have them, and when success in them is usually going to determine how hard of a time I'm going to have against the big empire building up across the galaxy.

So, what do you think? Oh, also one more thing. I play on 25% habitable worlds and it still lags. And nope, my computer is not a potato.

But whatever technical issue you're having that causes lag on 25% habitability probably doesn't let you play with that many other alien empires.
 

BrokenSky

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I'd absolutely love to see a "post apocalyptic" galaxy that is populated mostly by barren, toxic and tomb worlds with only a very few conventionally habitable worlds that will be highly contested and heavily fortified.

This'd be a really cool scenario condition. It'd be nice to see stuff like that in the next story pack; various interesting new scenarios and maybe a new map type or two (e.g. clusters - clusters of stars lumped together separated by dark-space, equivalent to Civ's continents, with a scenario rule option where some clusters would start without any empires in them, similar to terra.).

What I mean by scenarios is a type of extra modifier at galaxy generation which allows for interesting pre-scripted alternatives to the default, for example as you said generting a significant number of habitable worlds as tomb worlds and having more toxic and barren worlds as uninhabitable ones.
 

Bankipriel

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I agree that the 'new' 100% setting is still a bit high. I will likely lower it in my next game. I personally cannot imagine going lower than 50%, though.

I agree. I think it's actually going to be really fun to try a new 1.5 game with 75% or 50% because of the new model for border expansion, hopefully allowing for highly populated core systems to finally project power over a nice area for mining without as many garbage-stake-claiming worlds and border outposts.
 

Digrus

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'Cause if there are not enough planets in the Galaxy the early game would be extremely boring. You are human, your colonization strategy will always beat the AI's.
So, If there are few planets, it's not like those planets would magically become special or unique, you would simply reduce the AI's possibilities to oppose you (i.g. "look there are just 4 planets in this quarter of the galaxy, would be a pity if someone insta-colonize them to prevent everyone else expansion")
If the problem is the cede-planet/cleanse-planet demand cost(THAT'S tedious): we will get new technologies in Banks to improve it.
If the problem is the lack of "unicity" of every single planet: we will get more planet-relate perks with Banks.
(Personal note: once something become common, you really stop caring about the single units: the USA are 50 states, how many people know all of them, where exactly are they on the map? And If you do, can you describe them, their "unicity"? Probably you can if you are american or if you played Vic 2.)