Stellaris: Galaxy Command available now on mobile devices.

[Sigma 582]

I don't think the way we do DLC would work with the player behavior of mobile gamers, they don't tend to stick around long enough to buy DLC (or multiple DLC).

I have examples of the opposite but I guess a couple people is not statistics. Anyway, looking forward to that hijacked stream of yours and I do hope you'll your way to success in the mobile segment without alienating your traditional fan base.

 

[Spartakus]

Currency pack, spending behavior on mobile indicates that a very small number of people buy a bulk load of currency then spend it over a long period of time. Don't really understand why anyone would do this, but that's why it is there.

And exploiting those individuals is OK for you??? This right there is the source of this communities outrage!

 

[Officer Crabtree]

Currency pack, spending behavior on mobile indicates that a very small number of people buy a bulk load of currency then spend it over a long period of time. Don't really understand why anyone would do this, but that's why it is there.

No. It's there to enable self-destructive spending. Spending $150 in one go is much easier for addicts than spending $10 fifteen times. They don't spend it over a long period, they spend it all at once and then spend another $150, continuing until they've run out of money. That's the whole point of these microtransactions.

Well, we need to make money sure, but the strategic intent is actually to reach more players, the same reason we did console, if premium would work on mobile, we would've done that.

The only kind of players this bargain bin asset flip is supposed to reach is the 'whales'. The mobile market might be a cesspit of mictrotransaction-ridden waiting simulators, but that doesn't mean you should add more trash to the garbage fire.

 

[GnoSIS]

Not sure the company has an official stance, but in regards to how I've been planning our approach forward for strategy games, we're interested in finding more acceptable ways to do free to play. First, we need to build knowledge and understanding though, then we can expand to trying our own things.

Its actually a topic I'd love to talk more about, but this isn't the right place for it.

Please don't rattle the beehive, the industry knows how to do f2p correctly, take a look at the premium games that only sell cosmetics. Starting from the place of paying to clear time bars for buildings and fleet travel shows us exactly what's on your mind and on what you wish to 'experiment' with.

Even marketing experts and ratings companies advise potential investors to steer away from unacceptable p2w models such as this, and the PVP/leaderboard MMO strategy game has been done to death during the past 15 years.

Slapping the word stellaris in an old codebase and expecting a community to grow plus profit, shows little planning, awareness and respect for your customers and loyal fans.

 

[Verx90]

This is very wrong. Gambling addiction arises because the experience of gambling hooks into a person's reward systems. There are loads of gambling addicts who understand full well that they are not going to win, and that if they do come in and win one night, that they are going to lose all that again before long. Yes, there are some gambling addicts who think they can pay off their gambling debts by doing more gambling to win money, and others who think all sorts of other things. What they have in common is that their brains are rewarding them with dopamine when they gamble which makes them want to do it more.

I've picked out this part of your post as an example because I have a lot of experience with gamblers so I know a bit about what I'm on about. But my point is really that your understanding of addiction is very wrong.

i realy didn't want to reply anymore since it is useless to the conversation ( because this game doesn't have gambling system )

did you at least read what i writed in this sentence ?

again, gambling dependecy is something that is born from the idea that the "next time will be the one"

did i took the wrong word ? i'm not that sure but "born from" should be plenty precise about it . your brain don't just start to be dependend on something from the get go ( with psycological dependency) but by a way that is very similar to teaching ,reward an action , so your brain learn that if it do this, it will get the reward .

thats why easy gambling machine( slot , lotery etc.) have small and big rewards , so they can " train" your brain to do an action even when the reward is no more there . now, the gambling addiction get more complicated that this ofc , but the origin of the problem is born from a simple and common reaction of the brain, that in some ppl go wrong .
"the next time will be the one" its the most common phrase of a person that like gambling , they will not surely come to you to talk how theyr brain is addicted to the dopamine that they receive when they gamble .


now i start to thing that forums create dependency , i realy didn't want to reply anymore but here i'm ..

 

[pliznobn]

And exploiting those individuals is OK for you??? This right there is the source of this communities outrage!

Paradox have all but stated that they're greedy and proud of it; this should come as no surprise.

 

[ayami123]

It seems this guy has legit reason to have stellaris Galaxy command improved,

I mean I'm not Against pay to win.
but at least improve the damn game =_=
I'm so exhausted so many copy pasted game in mobile market that it disgust me

I know china is VERY laissez faire in their market so much so that it became so MUCH CUTTHROAT.

Can't beat the other company?
Pirate their Software Engineer by Offering it with a Bigger salary to work for you.
then patent their design,
then sue the original owner.

or if your fast enough sue the other side.
as long as it's isn't one of the main economic branch that the Gov is Concentrating like Tech and Machines,

your free to go. that's china for yah,
you win you lose.
it's basically free for all.
unlike in the west were they still have protection for middle and low income bussinesses

 

[Dëzaël]

did i took the wrong word ? i'm not that sure but "born from" should be plenty precise about it . your brain don't just start to be dependend on something from the get go ( with psycological dependency) but by a way that is very similar to teaching ,reward an action , so your brain learn that if it do this, it will get the reward .

Getting a building time reduction so you can chain buildings faster and increase ability to crush opponents is a reward. The reward does not have to be financial or even luck based for the training mechanism to work, especially if the rewards comes at no cost for whoever distribute them. I admit this is in a wider sense of the word than strict money gambling, but both share the same root. This is why p2w games are assimilated to gambling, and rightfully so.

Now I played a p2w strategy game few years ago in which when taking all the possible bonuses you would spend a maximum of 20€/month. The game itself was limiting the spendings by its own rules. That is much closer to an optional monthly fee than it is from gambling, even if it still exploits a reward system to hook you. Once you got these bonuses once, and if you liked the game, you would be likely to continue spending at least 10€/month.

Still much more acceptable in a context where some games require you to spend a monthly fee to even play at all despite also paying an upfront premium price. What these p2w games need at least is a cap to what can be spent on them, and a hard cap at that, no soft cap.

@Dnote if you're willing to take the time, I, and I suspect others, would be curious to hear your thoughts on such restrictions on the p2w business model. I mean given the current stance of the gaming community regarding p2w, that could almost be a selling point. In the various discussions about this on the forum, I never saw this option brought to the table. A possible middle ground?

 

[Verx90]

Getting a building time reduction so you can chain buildings faster and increase ability to crush opponents is a reward. The reward does not have to be financial or even luck based for the training mechanism to work, especially if the rewards comes at no cost for whoever distribute them. I admit this is in a wider sense of the word than strict money gambling, but both share the same root. This is why p2w games are assimilated to gambling, and rightfully so.

Now I played a p2w strategy game few years ago in which when taking all the possible bonuses you would spend a maximum of 20€/month. The game itself was limiting the spendings by its own rules. That is much closer to an optional monthly fee than it is from gambling, even if it still exploits a reward system to hook you. Once you got these bonuses once, and if you liked the game, you would be likely to continue spending at least 10€/month.

Still much more acceptable in a context where some games require you to spend a monthly fee to even play at all despite also paying an upfront premium price. What these p2w games need at least is a cap to what can be spent on them, and a hard cap at that, no soft

All dependency all share the same root , if you take dependency too philosoficaly , evrything will end up in dependency .


I think you forget that there were many games for cell , many different way for how they made money , but the biggest pie went to this style of f2p . Now , or you considerate that the majority of the consumers are weakminded dependent of dopamine the moment they touch a game with this meccanics or that this is theyr favorite way of games . This is what the marked required , what it asked for .

Now , proposing a quality game would have been better , and you should not just follow the market for greed . But still , there will be someone always to give what the market want .

The solution its siple , they use market statistics to see what the consumers want . You want them to stop using this way of microtrasaction ? Demonstrate thtat there is an economical alternative , or that this microtransaction metod its actualy harmfull to the comunity .

Take a seed of like 100~10000 cellphone f2p players and find a correlation from microtransaction and the varius mental disorders. 10k will not be enought to have a scientific proff , but will be able to have an actual study that showcase a possible problem .
For now , p2w and microtransaction seems only market strategy that work and are requested by the consumers . Otherwise , you would see b2p or fair f2p on the rise .

 

[Ridixo]

Mods, please, close this thing. What was to be said have been already said in the 106 respectfully disagree vs. 5 agree and the rest of the thread. This isn't going anywhere or at least anywhere we should wish to go. Things will only get worse and sooner or later you will have to close this. Thank you, and please keep Stellaris on pc*

*Fine, console too for people without taste in the good things of life

 

[Dëzaël]

I think you forget that there were many games for cell , many different way for how they made money , but the biggest pie went to this style of f2p . Now , or you considerate that the majority of the consumers are weakminded dependent of dopamine the moment they touch a game with this meccanics or that this is theyr favorite way of games . This is what the marked required , what it asked for .

No, I'm not forgetting offer/demand mechanics, nor I even considered any majority of consumers. I just threw in the idea of regulation to protect the few from the many, which is one of the staples behind the very idea of law making. Where there is self regulation, there is no need for laws.

Also what the market requires and what the consumers want can vastly differ in any given market context. The fact that things are selling should not be used in isolation as an indicator of consumers will. If anything it only tells that it is not bad enough to deter enough potential consumers to cease making profit in regard of the initial investment. Considering sales as only indicator is conflating what consumers would want with what consumers will do when they have access to the current range of options.

As for the harm MTX can bring, the fact that the term 'whales' comes from the industry rather than from gamer communities is speaking for itself. It has been widely discussed in the past few months already. Fine if the majority can use this without killing their finances, they are not those considered when bringing MTX as a problem, as well as they are not the target of this business model. If addicts didn't exist I'm not sure there would be so many p2w games on the market.

 

[Verx90]

No, I'm not forgetting offer/demand mechanics, nor I even considered any majority of consumers. I just threw in the idea of regulation to protect the few from the many, which is one of the staples behind the very idea of law making. Where there is self regulation, there is no need for laws.

Also what the market requires and what the consumers want can vastly differ in any given market context. The fact that things are selling should not be used in isolation as an indicator of consumers will. If anything it only tells that it is not bad enough to deter enough potential consumers to cease making profit in regard of the initial investment. Considering sales as only indicator is conflating what consumers would want with what consumers will do when they have access to the current range of options.

As for the harm MTX can bring, the fact that the term 'whales' comes from the industry rather than from gamer communities is speaking for itself. It has been widely discussed in the past few months already. Fine if the majority can use this without killing their finances, they are not those considered when bringing MTX as a problem, as well as they are not the target of this business model. If addicts didn't exist I'm not sure there would be so many p2w games on the market.

too bad there is no actual correlation till now, there are studies that showcase social dependency , i will be fair, i didn't look intoit for long, because for what i read in psicology, the desire to win its not a dependency , ( even if there are studies about compulsive buying disorder) there is still no correlation with microtransaction ( and i'm not talking about microntrasaction with gambling involved) .

so , for now, there are no study that showcase an abuse of a mental disorder in the case of p2w or microtransactions ; and even if there was like the compulsive buying disorder, i don't remember ppl telling shopping companies to be ashamed about abusing those poor souls .

atm the effect of microtransactions and p2w its on par with advertaising . same psicological push .

ps. the term whales come from casino , not the market.

 

[Cat_Fuzz]

too bad there is no actual correlation till now, there are studies that showcase social dependency , i will be fair, i didn't look intoit for long, because for what i read in psicology, the desire to win its not a dependency , ( even if there are studies about compulsive buying disorder) there is still no correlation with microtransaction ( and i'm not talking about microntrasaction with gambling involved) .

so , for now, there are no study that showcase an abuse of a mental disorder in the case of p2w or microtransactions ; and even if there was like the compulsive buying disorder, i don't remember ppl telling shopping companies to be ashamed about abusing those poor souls .

atm the effect of microtransactions and p2w its on par with advertaising . same psicological push .

ps. the term whales come from casino , not the market.

Google 'behavioural economics' and 'nudge theory'. It's an entire industry geared towards looking at human psychology and exploiting it to leverage better profits for businesses.

The difference between advertising and gambling is that most countries have a regulatory board that has powers to limit exploitative messaging on people, or for mis-selling products.

In-game purchases and MTX don't have this, so it's a Wild West market with no rules on how you can exploit people to boost business.

Also, Google Daniel L Kings study 'Unfair Play' which is a study on micro transactions and in game purchases, which explores their increasing use in video games and concludes with a need to put in place more regulation to reduce exploitation of vulnerable people.

Finally, you literally state that the term 'whales' comes from casinos, a form of gambling which is a term synonymous in the video game industry for those who are high yield spenders on in-game purchases. You're actually just proving everyone else's point.

 

[Verx90]

Google 'behavioural economics' and 'nudge theory'. It's an entire industry geared towards looking at human psychology and exploiting it to leverage better profits for businesses.

The difference between advertising and gambling is that most countries have a regulatory board that has powers to limit exploitative messaging on people, or for mis-selling products.

In-game purchases and MTX don't have this, so it's a Wild West market with no rules on how you can exploit people to boost business.

Also, Google Daniel L Kings study 'Unfair Play' which is a study on micro transactions and in game purchases, which explores their increasing use in video games and concludes with a need to put in place more regulation to reduce exploitation of vulnerable people.

Finally, you literally state that the term 'whales' comes from casinos, a form of gambling which is a term synonymous in the video game industry for those who are high yield spenders on in-game purchases. You're actually just proving everyone else's point.

i never negated gambling in videogames, and that there is no regolations for it ..

you are still putting microtransaction with gambling , as i said multiple times , i'm not considering gambling microtransactions .

but THIS case , galaxy command , doesn't have gambling . its just microtransactions , and there is still no study that prove any psicological levarage to "abuse" consumers , even if there may be cases of ppl that have a mental disorder that would make them spend alot of money, they are "special" cases that are considerate to require help from the state \ family \ organizations , not an actual attention from the society themself, or you want all advertizing \ shop to take responsibility for any constumers with mental disorder ?

this is like saying that its the shop fault that there are shoplifters , or klpetomaniak ; and that they should be ashamed to have "created" them.

 

[Cat_Fuzz]

i never negated gambling in videogames, and that there is no regolations for it ..

you are still putting microtransaction with gambling , as i said multiple times , i'm not considering gambling microtransactions .

but THIS case , galaxy command , doesn't have gambling . its just microtransactions , and there is still no study that prove any psicological levarage to "abuse" consumers , even if there may be cases of ppl that have a mental disorder that would make them spend alot of money, they are "special" cases that are considerate to require help from the state \ family \ organizations , not an actual attention from the society themself, or you want all advertizing \ shop to take responsibility for any constumers with mental disorder ?

this is like saying that its the shop fault that there are shoplifters , or klpetomaniak ; and that they should be ashamed to have "created" them.

Try reading the study. It's inclusive of 'gambling' MTX, such as loot boxes and games of chance, and 'repeat spending' MTX, such as time-savers and maintenance payments which instill a sense of urgency within the consumer, the latter being where Galaxy Command has utilised it MTX.

 

[[Q]uik]

So, The game seems interestnig. I'll be honest and say that.
But what REALLY turned me off it - and I haven't touched it since - is the god awful hand holdey never-ending tutorial.
When I realized that this game is going to hand hold me until it's told me every little aspect of it - a problem many other mobile games have (And when they do get away with it, it's because the tutorial is actually short).

I will not play this game, because I think i played it for like 15 minutes - the game hadn't TAUGHT me anything, just had me click on random buttons to do stuff. Complete turnoff.

 

[Verx90]

Try reading the study. It's inclusive of 'gambling' MTX, such as loot boxes and games of chance, and 'repeat spending' MTX, such as time-savers and maintenance payments which instill a sense of urgency within the consumer, the latter being where Galaxy Command has utilised it MTX.

i had to read the thing now ... waste of time ... we are all in accord that there are many MTX that are realy abusing and creating addicts, in particolar to gambling meccanics .

so, we have to ask pdx if he use the data of all players to try and make target - deals MTX in trying to abuse frustation , or if they are all the same , like any shop out there .

i've no dubt that MTX require major regulations , but affirming that simply using MTX ( as any shop use , foodstores, netflix , or anyone that use an installament system or all elphone companyes that uses pass ( infinte sms etc , free phones etc ) should be considerate an abuse of weak mind .

this and that are 2 very different things . the only "problem" with this tecnology, its that they can potentialy make offer target based , but you may think that this is a problem, but when you actualy want something, and that something come to you with a discount on it , you may think its a plot to make you buy it , or that you are lucky that they give you something that you would have buy anyway for a discount . you are a person, you are capable of understanding and making choise , if you are not capable, you should not be "free" to use money as you see fit .

 

[Cat_Fuzz]

i had to read the thing now ... waste of time ... we are all in accord that there are many MTX that are realy abusing and creating addicts, in particolar to gambling meccanics .

That's a shame, because section 2.1 of that study lists all the ways in which non-gambling tactics are used with in-game purchases, such as having access to linked accounts associated with your email address (linked to your device account or when signing up), so they know what your likes/dislikes are, and what you are doing outside the game so that they can better target to you. There's also the bit about lack of transparency over the value that you are spending, or deliberately limiting the time you can use a purchase in order to encourage further spending. How about currency manipulation, where a new currency can be introduced further down the line. You must have skimmed past that section, or felt that this perfectly fine to use psychology against people.

so, we have to ask pdx if he use the data of all players to try and make target - deals MTX in trying to abuse frustation , or if they are all the same , like any shop out there .

i've no dubt that MTX require major regulations , but affirming that simply using MTX ( as any shop use , foodstores, netflix , or anyone that use an installament system or all elphone companyes that uses pass ( infinte sms etc , free phones etc ) should be considerate an abuse of weak mind .

this and that are 2 very different things . the only "problem" with this tecnology, its that they can potentialy make offer target based , but you may think that this is a problem, but when you actualy want something, and that something come to you with a discount on it , you may think its a plot to make you buy it , or that you are lucky that they give you something that you would have buy anyway for a discount . you are a person, you are capable of understanding and making choise , if you are not capable, you should not be "free" to use money as you see fit .

A store is very clear upfront what it is your purchasing, and there are consumer rights in place of you are mis-sold something. A store can't manipulate currency on its own to skew sales in its favour because you've shown an interest, there's a financial regulator that keeps money in check. Also most stores don't take away something you've purchased within a short time of purchase.

I think at this stage, you're convinced that these methods of exploiting people are fine and acceptable, so I think I'm happy to agree to completely disagree with your points.

 

[Verx90]

How about currency manipulation, where a new currency can be introduced further down the line. You must have skimmed past that section, or felt that this perfectly fine to use psychology against people.

it can be used as manipulation, but it is even a necesity for determined meccanics, for example, they can't actualy give you money in the game, but they can give theyr fake currency in order to alow you to "access" the non-free contenent even with ingame meccanics .

the problem there is looking at evrything as an exploit .

as i said, most MTX require regulations ( about targeted deals , gamble , abuse of personal information)

but the MTX itself as a way to make money for F2P its totaly accettable from my point of wiev ( for example LoL use MTX , and have varius currency ingame (that is not always simple to see the value of it) , but i find that version of MTX actualy kinda accettable, the only thing i would like its a simpler way to understand the value of theyr currency.)

A store is very clear upfront what it is your purchasing, and there are consumer rights in place of you are mis-sold something. A store can't manipulate currency on its own to skew sales in its favour because you've shown an interest, there's a financial regulator that keeps money in check. Also most stores don't take away something you've purchased within a short time of purchase.

and there is the fall ... a store is not very clear , there are regulations but they still alow a form of unclearness . they make "all out to 80% of discount" evry year , you can see the instore discount ( and it has to be the real one , or its illegal) but you can't know the actual value of the merc, you are "pushed in" by the advertise , and by showing all other costly alternative and " pushing" you to buy with the "LIMITED TIME OFFER" .

no, psicologicaly , there is no difference from MTX to a shop . the value of money itself is something that is in costant change , so the presence of "special" value is in some case a trick to make you use the currency itself, but you still need to buy it and looking at how much money you are spending .

i guess we disagree on the gravity of a simple ( no abuse of personal information) and non-gambling MTX form .

 

[nick_kharin]

Good game. I was looking for a good strategy game like Stellaris but on mobile. And now it looks great.