Stellaris (Fake) Dev Diary #138 - Donte's Inferno

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jju_57

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I am late to this party but in case you are still looking at this thread I would love to see two games based on previous board games.

The first one is space based and based on the game "Freedom in the Galaxy". Make a player vs. AI and a head to head version of the game.

The second is based on the board game Vietnam 1965-1975.

I know these don't fit the current (let's create 10 DLC's for a game to keep pushing revenue) marketing model but I honestly believe they will sell well enough to make a profit. The big unknown is getting rights.
 

Scientific Monarchy

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I would like an RPG, grand strategy, text adventure, life simulator, or "god game" set in a mythic pre/early history or science fantasy milleu similar to the first three Breath of Fire games. (I don't care about verisimillitude, I just want to look at cool things and people.)

I would also like a Chronicles of Darkness game.
 
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methegrate

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This is just a communications thing, but for Stellaris it might be useful to clarify the thinking behind some of the game's half-finished or underdeveloped systems.

Just speaking personally, for about 2 1/2 years I've been buying DLC on good faith based on Paradox's reputation and the game's sense of potential. Without meaning to sound ad hominem, I've begun to feel like a fool. Thirty two months is a long time and so many of the problems that Stellaris launched with have never gotten fixed.

In particular I'm thinking leaders, sectors, diplomacy, lack of soul/asymmetry, solved development and the dead middle game (just among some... this doesn't even mention governments, mandates, polices and edicts, etc.). All have taken near-relentless criticism from launch, all for a different reason.

It might be helpful from a community standpoint to clarify the developers' thinking on these systems. For me, I would be interested in thoughts on the following:

- Leaders: These seem like a half-finished CKII style personality system. You get alerts when they die, as though it were a significant event, but in practice they're just named stat bumps. What is the purpose of the leader system? Do the developers intend to finish building out what feels like an incomplete personality mechanic?

- Sectors: Countless pixels have been spilled on sectors, so I won't get back into that. In essence, why are they still in the game? What do the developers intend to do with this mechanic?

- Diplomacy: The buzz is that this is the next big DLC. Without getting into specifics, what is the vision for diplomacy? How would the developers like the diplomatic game to play out and what mechanics would they like to build in to achieve that?

- Asymmetry: A review once said that the biggest problem with Stellaris is that it "has no soul." Every empire feels like just a reskinned row on the spreadsheet. None feel different, none have any sense of character. The world is the same. The world of Stellaris has no sense of itself. Instead it relies on references to every other big sci fi property to try and paper that over.

What is the developers' perspective on that? Do they want to make empires feel more asymmetrical and alien? And is there a sense of how they want the world of Stellaris to feel to the player?

- Solved Development: Stellaris is a war game. It's the only thing to really do. Moreover, if you don't have power you get flattened and building ships is the only path to power. So min/maxing toward alloys is the overwhelmingly dominant strategy. Do the developers have a sense of how they want to address this?

- The Dead Middle: I play Stellaris while I'm washing dishes, while I'm editing articles or watching Netflix. I sometimes start it up after getting back from the gym then jump in the shower. One of the forum's moderators once called Stellaris an "idler." It's because, once you've finished the early exploration phase, there's nowhere to go and nothing to do except occasionally declare war. You become a landlocked nation, with no meaningful interaction with your neighbors aside from invasion. You can literally walk away from the game for 15, 20 minutes at a stretch and nothing happens. Is there a plan for this?
 
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Bosparan

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Some well-taken points, methegrate,

adding some comments and ideas:

- Leaders: These seem like a half-finished CKII style personality system. You get alerts when they die, as though it were a significant event, but in practice they're just named stat bumps. What is the purpose of the leader system? Do the developers intend to finish building out what feels like an incomplete personality mechanic?
Couldn't agree more. Leaders are plain number boosts.
But they could be more. A lot more.
Ideas:
  • Levels give no boni, instead a talent tree where you pick what to train in, though fate and fortune may have a word regarding the available options. Would give some special characters more flavor, for example The Exile could have some very special talent tree options.
  • Storylines. There could be quest chains tied to a specific character, giving a lot more flavor along the way. This could also be content to pursue during mid-game a bit (Wouldn't cure the mid-game issues, but ... just one more thing to give extra flavor there). Imagine an Admiral going on a personal quest for glory (which may incidentally provoke a war you never meant to fight ...) or a scientists' quest for the unknown. A general's trail of tear and blood from one invasion to the next ... or bloody retreat after retreat.

- Sectors: Countless pixels have been spilled on sectors, so I won't get back into that. In essence, why are they still in the game? What do the developers intend to do with this mechanic?
The only purpose I can see so far is forcing me to hire more than one governor.

- Diplomacy: The buzz is that this is the next big DLC. Without getting into mechanics, what is the vision for diplomacy? How would the developers like the diplomatic game to play out and what mechanics would they like to build in to achieve that?
Now there's potential for updates. Hoping the next DLC delivers on that. Related things that could be seen to:
  • Espionage: Cloak and Dagger maneuvering that doesn't require open warfare. Would open the court for more playstyles and be a good filler for the mid-game
  • More options to cooperate. For example gathering support to put pressure on a disfavored neighbor by having many nations band together to demand a specific change (e.g.: Lots of liberal democracies trying to force an Empire to abandon its slavering ways. Start petitions, gather allies on an issue, rather than just a semi-permanent military alliance. This could then counterbalance individual, militarily strong empires and offer a deft operator options to improve their position without having to grab for the largest stack of alloys.
  • Diplomatic insights. Currently, everybody knows everything about everybody. Got a large empire as a devouring swarm and eating some primitives back and beyond, far outside anybody else's sensor range? Doesn't matter - everybody will still hate you monster for purging (okok, they hate me anyway beyond any hope for redemption, but still ...). Trying to hide what you are doing and trying to figure out what your fellows are up to could add a lot of depth.
 

methegrate

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Now there's potential for updates. Hoping the next DLC delivers on that. Related things that could be seen to:

All good ideas. Mostly, though, I would just like to know any vision for making this an interactive mechanic.

Right now diplomacy is essentially set from the beginning of the game. Your ethics more or less determine your relationships and there are no decisions you can make to change that. So there is no diplomacy game, mostly just a series of pre-determined variables. That and the infuriating catch-22 that the way you improve relationships is with trade, research and other agreements, but no empires that dislike you will ever accept those deals.

Compounding the problem is the trend of diplomacy toward WWI-style grand alliances. By midway through every game, the board has split into a handful of federations, alliances and defensive pacts. These virtually never, ever change and there's nothing you can do to influence them.

It ossifies an already slow middle game, because by that point in the game declaring war is the only thing left to actually do but you also can't do that without declaring war on like five different AI empires at once.
 

Bosparan

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True dat.
While the ethics system is great when it comes to styling your own nation and internal population dynamics, it has way too disproportionate an impact on interstellar relations, given how stagnant modifiers tend to be.
I think they have their place and don't need changes, but we need to counterbalance those with more dynamic modifiers. Diplomatic incidents could lead to temporary shifts in relations (and could be made to happen, if your agents are up to the task). Some alternative ways to diplomatic success could also be devised. For example regarding trade treaties: It might be possible to start a trade conference, inviting several nations to try and negotiate a multilateral trade agreement. This would lead up to the event, giving nations (participants or non-paricipants) the chance to interfere with the proceedings. The negotiations might take some time and not everybody will leave the table happy. Then there's this militant neighbor who's pissed that he didn't get an invitation to the table ...
 

AnemoneMeer

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While it may sound odd at first, what I would like to see is a more sci-fi version of say, Crusader Kings 2, mixed with mecha. I should mention, this is a completely different game idea.

The reason for adding mecha into the mix is because Crusader Kings 2 but in space doesn't really apply much risk nor direct interaction between the people you are controlling, and the actual war at hand. Sci-fi warfare can be incredibly hands off, with the general at a distant starbase while nameless grunts go and kill eachother. For the crusades, this very much was not the case, as leaders were on the battlefield themselves, done up in full plate and applying sword to eachother.

While it is anime as all hell even going the more battletech route, basing sci-fi crusader kings systems in a mecha setting gives an excuse for the player's characters to be front and center in combat and conflict instead of it just being Assassination: The Game, and affords a much larger range of characters than simple military chain of command climbing and its clear cut ranks.

Imagine Crusader Kings, but you're working with a mercenary outfit in a sci-fi setting, with all the mercs in each band and nation jockeying for position and status and having children who then have to avenge their mercenary father's death at the hands of a rival faction only to get shot in the back by their own #2 in a pitched battle who proceeds to become the player's next character, and all of this evolving naturally from the systems. It actually works as a concept and enables the same sort of amoral political backstabbery while allowing for new systems and concepts.
 

AnemoneMeer

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for Stellaris, at this point, I want to see a greater focus on ethical/governmental asymmetry. Megacorps were a huge step in the right direction for this, having many systems that cause them to play a different game, but hiveminds and machine empires largely play the same game with a few different rules and stipulations. I'd love to see patches that further differentiate every empire type from eachother, and the ethics from eachother. Spiritualist with its psionics, and materialist with its machine ascension are great examples, though both could use a bit more teeth. There needs to be an equivalent for every other ethos though. I'd love to see things like a Xenophile unique galactic reserve, where the xenophile player needs to visit every habitable planet in the game, one by one, and collect species samples, to preserve all life in the galaxy, and gains victory score and biotech advantages for doing so. Or militarist megacorps being able to become a PMC that gains victory score from its performances in the wars of *other* people and can be hired to wage war on behalf of others. Or an imperial empire having a nobility tree that determines lines of succession for leaders, instead of simply hiring on leaders, with new hires forming new trees, meaning they don't need to spend on hiring leaders unless creating a new one and leaders in waiting gain EXP aplenty while not costing upkeep, but hiring new leaders costs an absolute truckload.
 

Scottbert

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I look forward to future versions of Stellaris! On the one hand, I'll be a bit sad when there are no more new features, but on the other hand, when all the features it has are polished to a shine it will be an even more amazing experience!

In Stellaris specifically, I'd like the option to synth-ascend into bodiless uploads that live in VR and remote-control drones when needed. What would that look like? What sort of game mechanics might it have? :thinking:

I feel like Stellaris is missing something in really digging into the effects of your choices of how you develop your empire's society -- most random events are 'There's something weird about this planet you colonized' (not that that's bad, it's good) and no so much 'your society is reacting to your pursuit of ascension paths in a surprising (good or bad) way. What's it do to my society when everyone's robots (besides using energy instead of food and never dying), what's it do when everyone is genetically engineered to best fit on their planet (besides high happiness), I dunno. Is there potential here? I dunno, maybe it wouldn't actually be fun but it sounds cool.
 

jng2058

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What I want, and have wanted for like 35 years now, is a 4X Battletech game. Crusader Kings + Stellaris + Battletech. I'd want to start at the fall of the Terran Alliance when all the little nations sprang up...not just the ones everyone knows about like the Federated Suns and Draconis Combine, but the ones that in canon got curb-stomped and absorbed like the Chesteron Trade League. Indeed, the way the Alliance said "Screw you guys, I'm going home", you could even start on just one planet and have to forge your local nations yourself!

In short, I'd like to take a CK style hammer to Battletech history. Maybe in my game instead of the six Inner Sphere and five Periphery powers in the age of the Star League, maybe there'd be seven and nine. Maybe I can keep the Davions from making the Suns a democracy in name only, and keep the power with the people. Heck, maybe you play as a family line like you do in CK!

And by all means, you should have different era start points. Fall of the Terran Alliance, Age of War, Rise of the Star League, The Unification War, The First, Second, Third, and Fourth Succession Wars, the War of 3039 (a criminally under used era), Clan Invasion, Jihad, etc. (Some of which could be DLC, of course.) Just as long as there's a super early one that lets me go nuts and completely alter the history through gameplay and I'll be happy. A nice feature of the earliest scenarios would be the race to be the first to develop Battlemechs...or to be the ones to steal them from whomever won the first race!

That's the game I want.
 

Break one9er

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Welcome to the party, pal.

To answer your question: I always love flavor packs, more ships, more races, more traits! The more options to customize your empire the better. However in the intermediate future I would really like an extended bug fix/quality of life/balance pass though because things need to catch up and fit together from the 1.9>2.0>2.2 massive changes. So maybe get the artists working on fluff DLC to pay for it while the programmers deep dive into getting 2.2 in sync as a great base to build off of in the future.

This. This right freaking here. The MC expansion was pushed out WAYYYY before it was ready. Several patches in, and it's STILL riddled with bugs.
 

Dnote

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So on a scale of 1 to 10 how fruitless is it trying to convince you to take up Exalted for a fantasy GSG?

Well, things work in two ways here. For internal studios, we generally let the Game Director or other creative lead come up with an idea and direction, then work out the business case from there, for external studios, we go out to them with a genre and list of IPs and then they pitch us ideas based on those parameters.

So, if you specifically want a GSG, it will a case of us mentioning to them that we think they should consider using a certain IP, but we don't force them. Very much a wait and see approach.

If you want any kind of strategic game, then we can add Exalted to list of IPs we send out to developers.

Now, on top of that, there is also a priority when it comes to IPs, some are stronger than others and more available (we do other types of games too). Currently from my point of view, Exalted isn't very high on the list, but a good pitch can change that.
 

Playwars

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How about a GSG on the theme of the fall of a great Galactic Empire ? More or less inspired by the Foundation of Isaac Asimov, with how former Imperial worlds survive as the Galactic Empire crumbles and falls deeper and deeper into decadence, first abandoning the newly colonized outer rim to it's fate, and slowly withdrawing from the inner rim, abandoning entire sectors deemed not worth the trouble, or having them outright rebel because of the corruption and incompetence of the central authority. It would make for a fun game, especially if the Galactic Empire's internal politics are well designed, as everyone vies for the throne and chronic civil wars decimate the once mighty Imperial Armada, the knowledge and skills required to replace the lost ships or just repair damaged installations lost into the archives and to the general decadence of what passes for engineers and scientists. I could go on and on (I've been playing with that idea for a while) but I think it's better to paint a broad picture for the idea.
 

Andrzej I

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Now, on top of that, there is also a priority when it comes to IPs, some are stronger than others and more available (we do other types of games too). Currently from my point of view, Exalted isn't very high on the list, but a good pitch can change that.
Shame to hear it. I hope Exalted gets a good pitch. It felt like a rather wonderfully crafted world and game, in my opinion.
 

Suprsim

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Sorry if this shows up somewhere in the other 29 pages buuuuut...

I'm a huge fan of the logistical side of war and combat. And while HoI4 made a wonderful system for tracking stockpiles of weapons, the method of distributing supplies is abstracted heavily. The places a frontline fought from and for were almost always railroads and hubs - the germans knew if they controlled Moscow, they controlled all the main routes Russia used to supply it's troops.

So, what I would really love to see is either
a) more in depth implementation of the logistics in games like HoI4 and Stellaris or
b) Some sort of Factorio hybrid that is a war game. Factorio really shines as a PvE experience, but instead of being so focused on the tactical side of the war I would love to have the more "grand strategy" planning system so it could really be the focus of the "politician/leader/player" to merely giving the army the end goals. This frees up the players time to build interesting supply chains and logistical systems. Aaaand it would probably be best if it was more abstracted in the name of fun (as factorio does).

On the flip side, I have a very large interest in playing games like Advanced Tactics Gold which does place focus and strategy on supply lines. However it's deep simulation, massive depth of control, and unusual interface design make it a difficult sell and hard to learn and master. However it's ability to simulate different types of warfare (WW1 to beyond WW2), randomly generated maps and controlled start settings, and it's frontline and supply system still fuel a craving for me to keep trying that game despite its shortcomings.

Then as a final add, the same guy who made Advanced Tactics Gold is working on a new game that isn't unlike his previous designs - a wargame no doubt. However the setting is unlike any other in the genre as I understand it, with new planetary colonies struggling to grow in what may be described as a post apocalyptic theme.

Anyways, hope someone find this interesting!
 

PK_AZ

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It might be helpful from a community standpoint to clarify the developers' thinking on these systems. For me, I would be interested in thoughts on the following:
I have to support this one loudly. For me, it often feels that Stellaris grand vision was never longer that 'Paradox-style GSG in generic space opera setting'. It was especially visible in early Wiz era, before design went full revolution. For example.
1.
Vanilla expectations: all empires are multiethnical and multicultural (if yours not, then you are not conquering enough), and important part of your job is to make it somehow works.
Utopia: there are hive minds now, that don't give a blorg about all that ethos stuff
2.
Vanilla expectationthere are 4 sizes of warships, and you can freely choose their arnament
Leviathans: every ship size is now supposed to fulfill one role.

At the same time things truly unique for Stellaris were set aside. For example, there are four basic government systems (monarchy, dictature, oligarchy and democracy). Is there any big gameplay difference between them?

So TLDR, I would be glad if someone in charge actually wrote clearly, what you are trying to achieve.
 

Andrzej I

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A random thought for a DLC: a scenario editor, allowing you to either freely create an unbalanced start or perhaps have something in line with EU4's nation designer, allowing one to spend points on either possessing more systems, starting with a larger fleet, starting with certain tech, etc. This would allow players to tailor their games to their liking and (I hope) shouldn't be too difficult to code for.
 

Bosparan

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[...] but a good pitch can change that.
What does make for a good pitch?
Let's say I've got an idea I think could be made to happen. Just talking about it like "this would be cool" is something we often and easily do. But how do we take a pitch from that point to something you could seriously consider?
Is there maybe something like a reference example or some guidance on that?
Are there some core criteria needed to make it a possible option at all?
 

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What does make for a good pitch?
Let's say I've got an idea I think could be made to happen. Just talking about it like "this would be cool" is something we often and easily do. But how do we take a pitch from that point to something you could seriously consider?
Is there maybe something like a reference example or some guidance on that?
Are there some core criteria needed to make it a possible option at all?

Well, if you have a dev team, I can put you in touch with the BisDev team and they can explain what a good pitch it. :)