Stellaris Fact of the Day. Or, Everybody Stop Arguing About Communism

[Kollatius]

@Wiz

102_LACK_OF_AIR_LINE2

 

[Pcgamernum1]

Just because a battle is hopeless doesn't mean it isn't worth fighting.

Wiz I never would have guessed you were a philosopher.
Sometimes it's wise and live to fight another day.

BUT I do agree with you in this case.

 

[Konaa]

Just because a battle is hopeless doesn't mean it isn't worth fighting.

Hope springs eternal.

 

[vyshan]

Just because a battle is hopeless doesn't mean it isn't worth fighting.

can you tell us what Collectivism and Individualism means then, not what they are not but what they are in Paradox's eyes? maybe that will help?

 

[Wizzington]

can you tell us what Collectivism and Individualism means then, not what they are not but what they are in Paradox's eyes? maybe that will help?

Good of the state vs good of the individual, pretty much. Anything more detailed would depend on other ethos and your own roleplaying.

 

[Konaa]

I was gonna say, there's no reason it CAN'T mean communism if you don't want it to.

 

[vyshan]

Good of the state vs good of the individual, pretty much. Anything more detailed would depend on other ethos and your own roleplaying.

and just to make it clear, even if I am a collectivist state as I envision my enlightened monarchy to be(with collectivism 1). That does not stop my empire from having various freedoms for its people's right, right? basically collectivism does not have to mean a repressive dictatorship/monarchy correct.

 

[Denkt]

Ethos can either belong to the state or to pops. And pops that don't share the view of the goverment will be unhappy, collectivistic pops hate individualistic goverment.

Collectivistic slaves are not necessarily poorly off because collectivistic pops view is that the state must be strong and a strong state can guarantee the survival and well being of the pops, it is up to you how you think it society looks like.

 

[Cyridius]

I'm glad we stopped arguing about communism in this here thread.

To be fair the argument for me now is more around the concept of Collectivsm as "Social well being over individual well being" and this being incompatible with democratic governance(Which I think it shouldn't be).

 

[CassCD]

Just because a battle is hopeless doesn't mean it isn't worth fighting.

I bet that's what the Blorg said before they got themselves blown to pieces by that Fallen Empire.

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

and just to make it clear, even if I am a collectivist state as I envision my enlightened monarchy to be(with collectivism 1). That does not stop my empire from having various freedoms for its people's right, right? basically collectivism does not have to mean a repressive dictatorship/monarchy correct.

You need to view it as an ethos that sacrificing the few for the many is a viable strategy with collectivism. Sure, they can have allot of individual freedom but the welfare of the many will always prevail over the welfare of the few.

Decisions under such rule will always favour the greater mass and if some peoples individual rights are violated will be accepted.

Under a individualistic government it will be hard to pass laws or edicts that repress or violate peoples individual rights.

I would rather develop my role-playing of the empire based on the combination of ethos rather than a single one. That will make more sense.

 

[Wizzington]

I bet that's what the Blorg said before they got themselves blown to pieces by that Fallen Empire.

I'm pretty sure that never happened. Who would be dumb enough to attack a Fallen Empire this early it the game?

 

[jju_57]

This whole thing is silly. Everyone knows that

collectivism = hippy communes
individualism = John Wayne fan club

 

[Murmeldjuret]

I'm pretty sure that never happened. Who would be dumb enough to attack a Fallen Empire this early it the game?

It is probably communist propaganda.

 

[CassCD]

I'm pretty sure that never happened. Who would be dumb enough to attack a Fallen Empire this early it the game?

Those skilled in the art of time travel. I have no doubt that I'll become a master as well!

 

[Zavaleta]

Because what they are attempting to communicate with Individualist and Collectivist doesn't map any better to Hierarchical and Egalitarian.

Collectivist could apply to a society where people are assigned jobs based on aptitude, and where everyone receives equal protection and placement in society. Slaves work for free because that is their most useful state, but are still afforded equal status as a general - they live in the same homes and eat at the same restaurants. If tomorrow the government decided that what society needed was for the general to become a slave, thats what he'd do. That's not Hierarchical.

An individualist society could be highly stratefied, with many classes, but stringent protections of the rights and liberties of each class and a deep-seated respect for the idea of low class individuals working their way to the upper classes. That ain't Egalitarian.

And the sticky part is that with slight variations the exact reverse works equally well. Neither label really fits.

No matter what labels they use, they're going to be approximations, and the current ones work just fine.

I think what you have described is a hierarchical collective. If the government is conscripting individuals into work, that constitutes a hierarchy. Some one or a group of individuals (the government) are ordering around other citizens, their exists an accepted hierarchical relationship between two groups of people. Social morales accept that some individuals are above others and have the right to tell them what to do, hence they are hierarchical.

I am not arguing that individualism is egalitarianism. The model I put forward seperates them, as I seperate hierarchical from collective. Hence you can have hiearchical individualist societies and egalitarian colllectivists as well- neither can exist in the current ethos system. Why should individualist autocracies be prohibited in Stellaris?

Of course everything is an approximation, but why not improve. I am glad you are happy with the current system, but I think we can do better. It will happen in mods first of course.

 

[TheGrinningMan]

Iunno, it seems simple to me:
Individualism: You can't eat babies, they're individuals with the right to achieve their full, unique potentials!
Collectivism: We have determined a new way to curb crèche overpopulation on Zeta II. Relatedly, protein rations for productive workers have been increased by 1%.

 

[Cruxador]

Good of the state vs good of the individual, pretty much. Anything more detailed would depend on other ethos and your own roleplaying.

So they're fascism and libertarianism. Okay!

 

[Lee Lee]

Your are all wrong anyway (I am not surprised).

Individualist refers to an indivisible unit. It applies to your whole people and basically translates into a unified neural network species that thinks with one though.

Collectivist on the other hand simply refers to collecting things. Those people are hoarders^^

 

[Splorghley]

I have a degree in this, and even I find this debate inane. What lack of imagination y'all have.