Stellaris Dev Diary #96: Doomstacks and Ship Design

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TurtleShroom

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Also, the idea that a massive fleet can take significant damage from a tiny fleet, when all common sense dictates that if your navy is twice that of the other side, the other side should get ROFL-stomped, adds yet another layer of difficulty to a game that has already become infinitely harder with that forsaken Mandatory Hyper Lanes idea.
 

zizard

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More interesting weapons please.
This times 100. They are spending 3-4 reworks of the boring missile/PD system, which is NEVER going to be fun by itself. I GUARANTEE. Give us shield bubbles, healers, critical hits, psionic storm, directional damage, energy stores, stasis webs, minefields, EMP, damage over time, buffs, debuffs, short range shock weapons and long range snipers. Currently the combat has less depth than scissors paper rock.
 

Groot

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When is this going to be implemented in Stellaris?
 

Fjolsvid

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I wish to add one seemingly innocent comment to the discussion:

More interesting weapons please.

I think the combat system we have now is paying the price for this lack of vision. I was very disappointed to find only a couple of energy weapons, projectiles, etc.

Referring back to my experiences in MOO2, it wasn't so much the strength of the weapons involved, rather the combination of weapons that made the difference.

The closest Stellaris comes to this is a combination of plasma and disruptors, where one weapon knocks down shields allowing the other to inflict more damage.

Make no mistake, I understand the game's designers are trying to avoid the all-powerful ship design that can't be matched. But, what I am saying is; rock--paper--scissors = meeah.

Simply making weapons more powerful by degrees is pretty standard stuff, but doesn't really alter the balance of power. In WW2 the tanks got bigger, and what was the result? Heavy tanks were resource hogs, too slow to keep up, inflexible in harsh terrain, and broke down with regularity. In the end, such monstrosities had no effect on the balance of power (Exhibit #1; Battle of Kursk).

In short, if this be a war game, then WHERE'S THE ARMS RACE?

Another example; in medieval times infantry got halberds, archers got long bows, cavalry got the over-run. Moving up the technology tree means one acquires new weapons and tactics (both offensive and defensive) that actually tip the scale of battle.

In Stellaris, simply stacking ships in increasing numbers and gradually boosting weapon strength by degrees is, well, meeah.

Now, ask yourself this; What's a better investment of research and resources:
a) gradual improvements, or
b) game-changing technology.

Remember too, the Huns bested the Roman legion with leaps in technology and tactics, they were not simply another barbarian doom stack.


I apologize for butting in, but MOO 2 really didn't have that much going for it in terms of combining weapons.
There were only 2 kinetics and they were just better versions of contemporary tech: Mass Divers were much better than fusion beams and could last until neutrons or even gravitons and Gauss cannons were better than phasors, contended with plasma.
After that it was straight up upgrading to Disruptors and king of guns - Maulers (which were plain OP and shouldn't have existed in the first place).

Special weapons were indeed interesting: all those tractor beams, plasma webs, the iconic stellar converter (destroying planets really sped up cleaning up the galaxy) or even the vaunted Black Hole generator, BUT, in terms of effectiveness to space taken they were much inferior to just more simple guns.

Missiles were only efficient in the early game were missile cruisers were highly efficient hit and runners, but even with mid tech they were easily countered by equipment or even simpler - more guns.
Torpedoes suffered from both lack of damage and 2 turn delay between attacks. Fighters and their upgrades were famously underpowered and could be shot down by basic guns as well.

What was actually interesting is all the little modifiers that the game had, like direction of the guns mount (sadly not applicable in Stellaris as all guns are 360 turrets) and heavy (think of them as L weapons), point defense (respectively S weapons),auto-fire, continuous, armor piercing, shield piercing and enveloping.
These features in Stellaris are sadly in-built into weapon types themselves.

However, your statement holds a kernel of truth: space combat and ships should be more interesting. So far damaged ships will be getting mounting combat penalty, but i would really like if more parameters were tracked and there was a chance for a critical hit and in the best case (or worst, depending who is on the receiving end) a reactor core breach could happen causing the ship to go total kaput or maybe a gun would be disabled for a short time. AoE damage of sorts could be added in. The AoE most likely would have to be small, but respectively gravity weapons that would bunch up ships could be used to help with that.

Sometimes, i feel that Stellaris suffers from a lack of ambition instead of being overly ambitious, especially when I take a look at the deeper mechanics. Hopefully Wiz and others at Paradox will take a long critical look during the development of 2.0.
 

The Pill

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I understand it very well... what I am saying is, it's friggin Space Magic... If I have double the Ships with "Artillery Range", I am supposed to not lose a Single Ship, that's how it works, I have 30 Battleships with Artillery Range Weaponry, I will crush your tiny force before they can even come close enough to do any damage to me at best they will get a Single Ship or two but not in the way this Space Magic Bonus does where we are supposed to "feel the cost" of war even when double or triple the force.

It is not space magic it is war. In any war the longer it takes for any side to win the more the people on that side do not want to keep fighting, even as a player there are times when we will get tired of the wars we get in games like Stellaris when you are fighting multiple wars at once and just the tedium of moving your fleet around to fight off your enemies secure their planets then move on to the next takes its toll. What you seem to be trying to say is that war exhaustion doesn't exist when it is VERY much a real thing.

On a side note science, itself is boring the results of science are not.
 

SelorKiith

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Translation: I'm pissed because my "I win" button just got taken away.

Disparity at the very least now changes the equations along with the other war changes such as exhaustion. And with the retreat mechanics as well means we get actual flipping wars, not just a giant frame killing pitched battle and hours of nothing to do with the stack i just spent hours building after it.

Sorry if you have to actually work for a victory now instead of your "superior" fleet running roughshod over the backwater. The Mongols, the Visigoths, and the vikings would like a word with you too. And honestly your assertion is totally off base anyway considering your argument is based off one scenario of many, and assumes you always have tech and numbers.

I know realism vs space magic, but name me one battle in naval history or history period where a side took zero losses by superior numbers or tech? I'll wait.

Also you seem to be forgetting the other side of the equation. If a player builds wide vs a player that builds tall, you could have a small high tech fleet with even more of a bonus (fire rate plus tech) over the AI that has the advantage in numbers. You can now build less ships for greater effect, which would also (oh look) fit rather nicely with the plans for fleet splitting vs stacks. And (oh look again) give the smaller empires a shot at actually standing up to a larger enemy fleet.

Apologies though if that's a bit too outside the box for you, if you'd like we can stay with just whoever has 1.5 - 2X fleet power always insta wins? It's worked so well in the past after all.

When I go to war I make sure I have superior numbers and tech but thank you...
And to say that the Mongols, Visigoths or the Vikings were backwater is hardly a historical fact.

Again... I have no Problem with losing Ships or even the whole Fleet to an inferior Enemy if they got the drop on me, lured me into a trap or whatever...
I have a Problem with it when we are going Face-to-Face, with me having almost as much Artillery Range Ships as they have Ships in total and they suddenly do massive amounts of damage out of nowhere that they would never do in literally any other situation.

THAT is what I am not going to accept... that they get sudden Space Magic because I got Superior Tech and Numbers...
It makes the whole thing absolutely idiotic... I mean, why would I even want to upgrade in this situation? Why would I even want to build large and expensive ships when I know they will get destroyed regardless of what I do because the Finger of the Devs decided it would be "unfair" otherwise?
This will do one thing at best, I stick to inexpensive, low-tech ships to gain the Bonus myself.

Edit: I made a Mistake... It's not going to be just one thing that happens.
You can also send not just double the Fleet power against an enemy but 4, 5, 6 times the ships just to outnumber the Bonus...
So depending on the Player, this Space Magic Bonus just made the whole Doomstack even worse by providing a tangible incentive to outnumber the Bonus a smaller Fleet would get.
Good Job Devs!

It is not space magic it is war. In any war the longer it takes for any side to win the more the people on that side do not want to keep fighting, even as a player there are times when we will get tired of the wars we get in games like Stellaris when you are fighting multiple wars at once and just the tedium of moving your fleet around to fight off your enemies secure their planets then move on to the next takes its toll. What you seem to be trying to say is that war exhaustion doesn't exist when it is VERY much a real thing.

On a side note science, itself is boring the results of science are not.

I am talking about the Force Disparity Combat Bonus...
 
Last edited:

IrishGirl

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On a side note science, itself is boring the results of science are not.

Um, what? There is nothing boring about science. Nothing. In fact, many of the scientific discoveries which have proved most beneficial to mankind were based on years of study by a scientist who had little, if any, interest in the "practical" application.

For some of us, the study of how wavelengths can produce radiation is infinitely more interesting than how to make a better microwave oven.
 

Misguidedworm7

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THAT is what I am not going to accept... that they get sudden Space Magic because I got Superior Tech and Numbers...
It makes the whole thing absolutely idiotic... I mean, why would I even want to upgrade in this situation? Why would I even want to build large and expensive ships when I know they will get destroyed regardless of what I do because the Finger of the Devs decided it would be "unfair" otherwise?
This will do one thing at best, I stick to inexpensive, low-tech ships to gain the Bonus myself.

Edit: I made a Mistake... It's not going to be just one thing that happens.
You can also send not just double the Fleet power against an enemy but 4, 5, 6 times the ships just to outnumber the Bonus...
So depending on the Player, this Space Magic Bonus just made the whole Doomstack even worse by providing a tangible incentive to outnumber the Bonus a smaller Fleet would get.
.

FDCB equalizes the offense of a fleet only, it still lacks on defense.

The smaller fleet will always lose. It's just that it won't be so hopeless.
The other day I had my ~160k fleet fight a 140k fleet, I lost a couple ships, all the way down to 130k fleet power. That is not a reasonable result, trading 30k for 140k, because I had only a slight advantage in overall power. The enemy fleet never recovered to threaten me again, it took them almost 50 years to recover from the war once all was settled. By which point I was beyond their reach by a huge margin.

Fleet disparity bonus won't change who won that fight, My fleet would still win. But the enemy could take some of my ships down with them, and could save some of their fleet, so instead of m walking away with 130k, it would be more like 110k, and the enemy would salvage something like 50k, I still win in all regards, claiming 80k in kills for only 50k in losses, which is far less game winningly decisive as to knock my biggest rival out of the game entirely because I was 10% stronger in that one battle.

My numbers are made up for the theory craft section, so grain of salt. But the idea isn't to turn combat around so the weaker fleet wins, but to make losing less crippling.
 

Dragonkat42

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Just to get the silly argument out of the way first.

You can also send not just double the Fleet power against an enemy but 4, 5, 6 times the ships just to outnumber the Bonus...
So depending on the Player, this Space Magic Bonus just made the whole Doomstack even worse by providing a tangible incentive to outnumber the Bonus a smaller Fleet would get.
Good Job Devs!

.... Why yes, if someone somehow gets 6x my fleet power, something i've never even seen an awakened empire or crisis fleet manage if you have any skill at all I would expect to lose too. But can we please keep the unrealistic scenarios off the table? If you are that outclassed at this point no amount of magic saves you.

But thank you for again highlighting the exact problem with blob combat, and my point above. Where if you dont have the numbers there is no point to even continue that session, because you know the outcome before it even begins.

Though with this new system? While your 6x fleet is plodding along, excuse me while I go raid the rest of your systems, enjoy your forced peace...

Why would I even want to build large and expensive ships when I know they will get destroyed regardless of what I do because the Finger of the Devs decided it would be "unfair" otherwise?

Says the guy who has been talking non stop about how superior tech and numbers should magically win without a single casualty..... So now you want to self gimp yourself by having lower dps and defense, wasting your fleet cap and support costs, and having more inefficient ships that would take more time to kill a fleet, and probably take more losses in the process, because damn that space magic? Oh my god I might lose one shiny ship, but it's ok if I lose a bunch of crap ones at a higher overall mineral and time cost, that'll show them devs right?

But it's all good because at least force disparities "Massive" damage didn't kill my ships instead? You're contradicting yourself here Selor. More so as we don't even know yet how disparity is even going to work, or what number's it's based off of.

It was total fleet cap used by the fleet for instance then trying to game the system by having a lower tech on your ships is self defeating because you aren't taking advantage of your tech.

If it is based off total numbers in the fleet then a horde of low tech is also self defeating because again, lower DPS regardless so more net losses.

If it is based solely off total fleet power that's the only valid argument you might have. But again see the above, you've set yourself in a pitched equal battle with your enemy which means you stand to lose more ships in a "fair" fight then you would by going high tech and numbers, even with disparity taken into account.

From any tactical standpoint your plan doesn't make sense.

Again this seems like you're being pissy because oh my god you might actually lose a ship in combat. from that "massive" space magic damage boost. Do you not if you're the higher tech and stronger empire have the means to recoup losses faster still? Or are you still just annoyed because now you can't steamroller an empire in one shot, and might have to go learn the phrase war of attrition?
 

LtSurge

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Having superior numbers should result in a victory in battle, but history has shown that not always to be the case.

This is space battles, where we'll have to be a bit more... "creative" in terms of tactics. I imagine that is why "terrain" is being discussed regarding Cherryh.
 

SelorKiith

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Just to get the silly argument out of the way first.



.... Why yes, if someone somehow gets 6x my fleet power, something i've never even seen an awakened empire or crisis fleet manage if you have any skill at all I would expect to lose too. But can we please keep the unrealistic scenarios off the table? If you are that outclassed at this point no amount of magic saves you.

But thank you for again highlighting the exact problem with blob combat, and my point above. Where if you dont have the numbers there is no point to even continue that session, because you know the outcome before it even begins.

Though with this new system? While your 6x fleet is plodding along, excuse me while I go raid the rest of your systems, enjoy your forced peace...

I have never said the current system is any good just that the "solution" is also not good and yes I exaggerated to get the general point across that is: This new system incentivises Large Blobs to counter the Hard Bonus in Fire Rate.

Says the guy who has been talking non stop about how superior tech and numbers should magically win without a single casualty.....

Never said that, I am fine with losses if they come from superior tactics and my own errors...

So now you want to self gimp yourself by having lower dps and defense, wasting your fleet cap and support costs, and having more inefficient ships that would take more time to kill a fleet, and probably take more losses in the process, because damn that space magic? Oh my god I might lose one shiny ship, but it's ok if I lose a bunch of crap ones at a higher overall mineral and time cost, that'll show them devs right?

But it's all good because at least force disparities "Massive" damage didn't kill my ships instead? You're contradicting yourself here Selor. More so as we don't even know yet how disparity is even going to work, or what number's it's based off of.

It was total fleet cap used by the fleet for instance then trying to game the system by having a lower tech on your ships is self defeating because you aren't taking advantage of your tech.

If it is based off total numbers in the fleet then a horde of low tech is also self defeating because again, lower DPS regardless so more net losses.

If it is based solely off total fleet power that's the only valid argument you might have. But again see the above, you've set yourself in a pitched equal battle with your enemy which means you stand to lose more ships in a "fair" fight then you would by going high tech and numbers, even with disparity taken into account.

From any tactical standpoint your plan doesn't make sense.

As I've said... I made a mistake but thanks for dragging that out.

Again this seems like you're being pissy because oh my god you might actually lose a ship in combat. from that "massive" space magic damage boost. Do you not if you're the higher tech and stronger empire have the means to recoup losses faster still? Or are you still just annoyed because now you can't steamroller an empire in one shot, and might have to go learn the phrase war of attrition?

No, I am not in line with complete Out-of-Game Reasons suddenly interfering with the game play for nothing but "It's unfair otherwise".
 

Slynx

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FDCB equalizes the offense of a fleet only, it still lacks on defense.

The smaller fleet will always lose. It's just that it won't be so hopeless.
The other day I had my ~160k fleet fight a 140k fleet, I lost a couple ships, all the way down to 130k fleet power. That is not a reasonable result, trading 30k for 140k, because I had only a slight advantage in overall power. The enemy fleet never recovered to threaten me again, it took them almost 50 years to recover from the war once all was settled. By which point I was beyond their reach by a huge margin.

Fleet disparity bonus won't change who won that fight, My fleet would still win. But the enemy could take some of my ships down with them, and could save some of their fleet, so instead of m walking away with 130k, it would be more like 110k, and the enemy would salvage something like 50k, I still win in all regards, claiming 80k in kills for only 50k in losses, which is far less game winningly decisive as to knock my biggest rival out of the game entirely because I was 10% stronger in that one battle.

My numbers are made up for the theory craft section, so grain of salt. But the idea isn't to turn combat around so the weaker fleet wins, but to make losing less crippling.
but this FDCB will add inconsistency.
right now you have a fleet of A power that can deal X dps. and it'll usually deal it no matter what.
but with FDCB it'll suddenly do X dps in situation A, and Y dps in situation B. and it's a bit moot.

Says the guy who has been talking non stop about how superior tech and numbers should magically win without a single casualty.....
right now if you have a greater force fighting lesser force. the greater force will suffer less loses because of how the focus fire works.
so instead of giving "unrealistic" bonuses in combat it's better to teach ships to focus correctly. (and if you want to give smaller fleet an edge - then just tell them to evaluate their options and destroy with focus-fire the most ships they can)
 

Lucian667

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May 17, 2016
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The other day I had my ~160k fleet fight a 140k fleet, I lost a couple ships, all the way down to 130k fleet power. That is not a reasonable result, trading 30k for 140k, because I had only a slight advantage in overall power.

Maybe they should be taking a very close look at exactly what it is about the combat algorithm that causes this result because its certainly not intuitive, you'd expect a lot closer result from two such initially similar forces waling on each-other.

If there turns out to be a problem with the basic combat algorithm, they should probably just fix it properly rather than putting this jury-rigged, knee-jerk "force disparity" patch over an already fundamentally broken system. I cant see that turning out well.
 

ISitOnGnomes

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but this FDCB will add inconsistency.
right now you have a fleet of x power that can deal x dps. and it'll usually deal it no matter what.
but with FDCB it'll suddenly do x1 dps in situation A, and x2 dps in situation B. and it's a bit moot.

Right now if I we are at about the same tech level and I have 6k of ships and you have 3k of ships, you would but lucky to even destroy 1k of my fleet while you would be able to destroy close to an entire other 3k fleet. So I don't see how you think that you deal equal damage in all fights in the current version of the game. These changes will make it so a 3k vs 6k fleet will at least result in 2k or so in losses for the large fleet, rather than close to nothing.

Also it would be a range of 1x damage to 1.5x as currently shown to us, but none of these numbers are set yet
 

ISitOnGnomes

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Maybe they should be taking a very close look at exactly what it is about the combat algorithm that causes this result because its certainly not intuitive, you'd expect a lot closer result from two such initially similar forces waling on each-other.

If there turns out to be a problem with the basic combat algorithm, they should probably just fix it properly rather than putting this jury-rigged, knee-jerk "force disparity" patch over an already fundamentally broken system. I cant see that turning out well.

Although it might not seem intuitive this is how natural combat in an endless open plain (aka space) would work. Check out Lanchester's Law. Once firearms get involved it doesn't take much of an advantage for one side to destroy another.
Damagerace.JPG


As you can see it takes a 4 to 1 damage advantage on the force that is half the size of the other just to force a draw.
 

Slynx

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Right now if I we are at about the same tech level and I have 6k of ships and you have 3k of ships, you would but lucky to even destroy 1k of my fleet while you would be able to destroy close to an entire other 3k fleet. So I don't see how you think that you deal equal damage in all fights in the current version of the game. These changes will make it so a 3k vs 6k fleet will at least result in 2k or so in losses for the large fleet, rather than close to nothing.

Also it would be a range of 1x damage to 1.5x as currently shown to us, but none of these numbers are set yet
i'm not talking about losses. i'm talking about dps. - damage per second.
and my 3k fleet will deal the same amount of initial dps in both scenarios of facing 1k or 6k.
but in the later case it'll quickly will be diminished by the actual ship losses.
with the new system my ships will do more damage in the later case and fewer damage in the former. and it's not good.

ps: and to clarify - when you have a fleet with 1000 (for example 10 ships with 100 hull points each) combined hull points and you receive 500 damage it doesn't meant you'll suffer any ship casualties. because unless they were focused it may be 10 damaged ships with 50 hull points left. or it could be 5 full ships and 5 destroyed.
that's why sometimes there are almost no ship casualties after the combat. because even though you've received tons of damage it mostly were distributed evenly among entire fleet, or it was absorbed by shields
 
Last edited:

Lucian667

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Although it might not seem intuitive this is how natural combat in an endless open plain (aka space) would work. Check out Lanchester's Law. Once firearms get involved it doesn't take much of an advantage for one side to destroy another.

As you can see it takes a 4 to 1 damage advantage on the force that is half the size of the other just to force a draw.

Very interesting stuff, although taking a look at the wikipedia article the answer seems to be really, really obvious. These kind of disproportionate casualties only occur when every single participant from either side is always in range to shoot anyone that they like.

If they just drastically lower the weaponry ranges then "Lanchester's Square law" (which is responsible for all the problems) becomes "Lanchester's Linear law" which is far more in line with the results they want and people intuitively expect. Just drastically lower the weapon ranges so that everybody cant shoot everybody all the time, problem solved and no "magic force disparity" fudge factor is required.
 

GloatingSwine

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I apologize for butting in, but MOO 2 really didn't have that much going for it in terms of combining weapons.
There were only 2 kinetics and they were just better versions of contemporary tech: Mass Divers were much better than fusion beams and could last until neutrons or even gravitons and Gauss cannons were better than phasors, contended with plasma.
After that it was straight up upgrading to Disruptors and king of guns - Maulers (which were plain OP and shouldn't have existed in the first place).

Better to stick with Phasors, really. They could get shield piercing, which you could combine with Achilles Targeting and Structural Analyser to skip both shields and armour and do double structure damage.
 

DrBLOOD95

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So we can finaly have a proper cool escort for our science ships with a level 5 scientist, sounds good.

I mean will civilian ship will also jump at the same time than military fleets if ordered to follow, for example ordering a fleet of 10 corvettes to follow a science ship which is auto exploring?