Stellaris Dev Diary #96: Doomstacks and Ship Design

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So now that the big anti-doomstack solution is finally revealed......... Why the hell do you need to get rid of Warp and Wormholes again? None of those "solutions" has anything to do with how ships arrive at combat.

FTL rework was also to address static defenses being able to be powerful, capable of defending numerous systems, and to make it possible to prevent empires from just instantly warping all over your empire if you invest in them.

So, it seems the new meta is to split your doomstacks into fleets of dozens of individual ships. Is there something to counter this obvious exploit?
Is it really obvious? Or are you just trying to pretend you're smart. Or maybe you just think the devs are much dumber than you?
 
FTL rework was also to address static defenses being able to be powerful, capable of defending numerous systems, and to make it possible to prevent empires from just instantly warping all over your empire if you invest in them.


Is it really obvious? Or are you just trying to pretend you're smart. Or maybe you just think the devs are much dumber than you?
I assume the devs know about it too, hence why I said it's obvious and why I asked if there is a counter to it. You don't have to be rude.
 
It'd make the starbases and terrain pretty much useless. Skip any chokepoints, target starports that specialize in shipbuilding.. avoid galactic terrain that's unfavorable to you. All of these changes interact with one another.
Do you mean like the defender placing those strategic assets in systems where the galactic terrain favours their defence, as opposed to at the only logical place to put it (the chokepoint)?

If you want chokepoints in your games, hyperlane-only. If you want a more varied strategic game, warp or wormhole (or all). Still not clear on why we had to lose 2 types of FTL - it's not like galactic terrain or FTL-inhibiting starbases magically become irrelevant because the enemy moves using warp. It just means chokepoints do.
 
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As for the FDCB, I think it's better to think of it as diminishing returns on fleet size rather than a bonus for a smaller fleet. It's just applied at the smaller fleet because that makes the math work better. And every Paradox game has had a mechanic for diminishing returns on army size.
 
I assume the devs know about it too, hence why I said it's obvious and why I asked if there is a counter to it. You don't have to be rude.

The dev diary explicitly said that the disparity mod is based on the size of each side in the battle, not on the size of the individual fleets. A fleet of twelve corvettes gets the exact same disparity bonus as two fleets of six corvettes.
 
It also means that empires that want to invest heavily in the power of missiles will need to use designs and ship classes that can pack torpedo slots, instead of simply putting missiles on everything that would normally mount a different weapon.
Does this mean we are going to get T slots for all classes of ships? Because right now, destroyers and battleships lack torpedo slots.
 
I think they should look at adding new weapons or making changes to existing weapons other than missiles. The changes being made over and over are reworks, not adjustments, and shows that there was never a cohesive vision for the combat system. Also isn't this removing standard missiles from the game, leaving only torpedoes? If they keep removing stuff there won't be anything left soon.
 
@Wiz

I appreciate the efforts you guys are making, but I think you should consider changing tier scaling to be much more significant. A t5 ship should be equal to more then 2 t3 ships in my opinion. This changes doomstacks dramatically.
 
The Force Disparity Combat Bonus is applied when a smaller force is engaged with a larger one in battle ('force' being every ship engaged on one side of a battle, regardless of how many fleets and empires are involved on each side), and gives a bonus to the firing speed of all ships belonging to the smaller force.
I wouldn't recommend this since it doesn't make much sense ...

To address this problem, we have introduced the concept of Ship Disengagement.
Rather than always fight to the death, ships can now flee battle and survive to fight another day.
This is good ...

Command Limit is a limit on how large any one individual fleet in your empire can be (right now it's a hard-cap, though we might change it into a soft-cap), and thus how many ships an admiral can give their combat bonuses to.
I've rather hoped for some sort of an actual "command-chain":
- A "captain" is commanding a single ship, so that the combat bonuses of this "captain" only applies to his/her ship ...
- A "commodore" is commanding a single "squadron", a sub-unit of an actual "fleet", so that the combat bonuses of this "commodore" only applies to his/her "squadron" ...
- An "admiral" is commanding a single "fleet", so that the combat bonuses of this "admiral" only applies to his/her "fleet" ...
- A "chief of what-ever" is the head of all of my "fleets"/ships, so that the combat bonuses of this "chief of what-ever" applies to all of my "fleets"/ships ...

As a part of this (and the FTL changes) we have also made it so that fleets that are following other fleets will now jump into FTL together, making it possible to have fleets following each other without becoming 'decoupled' as they travel across multiple systems.
This is good, too ...

Ship Reactors
Armor, Shields and Hull
Missiles and Hull Damage
Currently, it sounds OK ...

Combat Computers
You should scrap this approach of different "combat computers" in favour for an approach of different "formations" since ships with "combat computers" are acting too separately instead of in a common approach ("formations").
 
Still waiting on news about Unity changes, uses for unity outside of just spending it on Traditions and its use in late game after all traditions are unlocked. Perhaps special Unity Edicts, buildings or Megastructures.
 
As a LARPer who admittedly has some practice ignoring parked cars and orcs glancing at wrist watches, I continue to be baffled at people's inability to accept abstractions in a grand strategy game that is an indirect successor (via Europa Universalis) to a board game.

I would love to have the game simulate the entire officers' staff of my empire, similar to my favorite feature in Aurora 4X (where you could even invent your own medals and award them to even just some Lieutenant fighter pilot who performed particularly well and watch them rise through the ranks), but just folding the overall competence of the officer corps, the availability of FTL communications and degree of development of command doctrine in space into a simple command limit isn't really the end of the world.

That said, maybe having some tier below admirals or a small command-tree for a fleet would still be nice.
 
That said, maybe having some tier below admirals or a small command-tree for a fleet would still be nice.
only if they'll be on a separate "great people limit"....oh, wait. it's called just "leaders" in stellaris
 
only if they'll be on a separate "great people limit"....oh, wait. it's called just "leaders" in stellaris

Yeah... I always thought the leader limit was a bit too low and limiting. They counteracted that by removing planetary leaders and making the core sector governed by a single leader as well, but I still would prefer to deal with a more diverse set of characters. Then again, that's probably the CK2 player in me speaking.
 
Personal thoughts; some of this has likely been said (and/or opposed) by others earlier, apologies for that.

Force Disparity Combat Bonus: seems somewhat gamey (in the sense of sacrificing verisimilitude for the sake of balanced gameplay) but this is offset somewhat by the notion of it 'representing the smaller force having an easier time maneuvering and targetting.' (Am still sure there will be long arguments about how 'realistic' that is in space, involving infinite room versus effective engagement distances and the like.) I do feel it would have been better as a nerf to the bigger fleet than as a buff to the smaller one; better even than that, if the combat mechanics themselves were reworked such that this *actually* happened in the resolution itself (ie. ships missing their firing opportunity due to being 'screened' by friendlies, maybe some friendly fire happening etc.) so the FDCB feels more like an emergent result than a coded mechanic. (This is, perhaps not coincidentally, how I take on doomstacks in Conquest of Elysium 4.) But that would almost certainly require a complete rebuild, meaning likely far more work than the benefits would justify.

Ship disengagement: likely to make wars (even more) grindy, but this is inevitable in anything that aims to reduce the the decisiveness of a single battle and is potentially offset by making the individual battles themselves run a bit quicker. Am fine with this.

Regarding this phrase: "and the FTL changes that makes it so it's harder to cover your entire empire with a single fleet" - I feel this is going to be more than offset by how the introduction of chokepoints & the buffing of static defenses reduces the amount of empire you have to actually cover - unless you're faced with a fleet capable of busting through the fortified points, but such a fleet is likely to require a doomstack to answer it anyway. Overall, I'm not convinced the FTL changes aren't just treading water on this facet of the game - though in conjunction with the other changes coming with it that water is likely to be quite muddy. (Ie. it will be difficult to be certain what is actually having an affect on the use of doomstacks and what is just coming along for the ride.)

Overall, I still feel as though none of this *requires* the FTL changes (beyond reducing the overhead in order to implement them) but I am very glad not to see any of the things I speculated on that would have explicitly required the FTL changes.

Missiles, and specifically 'damage reduces speed and combat ability':
In addition to giving missiles a strategic purpose beyond just the 'rock/paper/scissors' game of weapons vs defenses, this seems (at least on paper) like it will help to address one of the issues behind the obsolescence of corvettes. Moreover, it feels 'right,' in the sense that damaged ships *should* have reduced capabilities.

Computers: The others are obvious, but I'm curious to see what the practical difference between swarm and picket will be. I'm guessing Swarm is more like a 'charge, fire while passing and circle back for another charge' kind of thing (ideal for fast ships with a high alpha strike) while picket is more "move to and hold at brawling range" (better for short range, 'tanky' ships hoping to screen.)

Reactors: I liked the fiddly exercise myself so I'm a bit sad to see it go :(

"All empires start with all basic weapons in Cherryh. More on this next DD."
Not surprised, and while I'm still not convinced that the FTL changes were as necessary as advertised, this one does seem mandated by some of the other changes. Still, it's another disappointing change for me and If I was a cynic I'd expect either planet preference or traits to be next on the cutting block.
 
I like a lot the retreat mechanic, it was much needed to address the one battle wins the war issue, but I still don't understand how these changes together fix the doomstack issue. Can you post a practical example of how a war plays out?

The way I understand it is that the new hyperlane FTL (which I don't like) forces arbitrary choke points and basically decides for the players where to place a fortified starbase (unless one plays for losing). And we've been said that starbases can scale in power to match entire fleets. So an attacker needs bigger fleet to bring it down. And a defender want to do everything in its power to prevent fortress fall because they aren't destroyed but captured (like EU4 forts) meaning it will fight against you once you lose it.

It looks to me that this pattern screams doomstack everywhere since it promotes concentration of power in a single system (the defender because it knows the attacker has no choice that to go through there to make damage, the attacker because it's forced to pass through there and the defender is waiting with all his stuff). Yes: in theory you can attack multiple starbases at the same time. But since starbases match fleets in power common sense suggests that by doing so one is reducing its chances of success, even if you don't lose the ships but just have them unavailable for while until repaired.

So except for the case where a few systems outside the chokepoint contains vital resources I still fail to see how we won't end seeing all the (smaller) fleets of the attacker sent together against the fortress where all the fleets of the defender awaits.

Maybe a practical example can help clarify how doomstacks are going away?
 
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The Force Disparity Combat Bonus is applied when a smaller force is engaged with a larger one in battle ('force' being every ship engaged on one side of a battle, regardless of how many fleets and empires are involved on each side), and gives a bonus to the firing speed of all ships belonging to the smaller force.

I've hunted through over 20 pages of comments checking to see if anyone else spotted this one too... There has been a significant discussion r.e. the effect of Fleet Power on the FDCB. However, this is not what Wiz specified in the text. If you read closely it is specifically stated to be "every ship" that is calculated, not Fleet Power. My interpretation of this phrasing is that it is solely the number of ships, not their FP, that would contribute to FDCB. A single 10k FP Battleship should not suffer issues against a FP weaker fleet of 30 Corvettes - it can't shoot itself!

The have been many people arguing that a DoomStack of 3-4 fleets of 30 ships each is still a "poly"Doomstack, and I agree. They have also stated that this would appear to get around the FDCB penalties, which I disagree with. This amalgamated mass of fleets would include 90-120 ships. Against a single fleet of 30 ships or 30 fleets of 1 ship, irrespective of the difference in FP, the PolyDoomStack is still the numerically superior force and would be on the wrong end of the FDCB.

There have been a couple of people to raise questions regarding a small force of high-tech ships vs a large force of low tech etc., but the discussion keeps coming back to what I see as an erroneous assumption...
 
The leader limit and # of leaders required changes pretty bloody randomly throughout the game. e.g. late game you need like 1 non-research scientist, early game you might have 5.