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Stellaris Dev Diary #45 - Ship Balance

Hello everyone!

Today we will go into the sixth part in a multi-part dev diary about the 'Heinlein' 1.3 update and accompanying (unannounced) content DLC. The topic of today's dev diary is the changes to ship roles and ship balance.

Ship Roles
The new design intends to give each ship a more unique combat role. Some ships will be defensive, while others will be more offensive.

Corvettes
Small and aggressive ships with high evasion that can be equipped with torpedoess. They will be very effective against large ships like battleships due to their high evasion and access to torpedoes. They have very low armor, but a very high chance to evade.

Destroyers
Defensive ships that are designed to counter corvettes, which is why they receive an innate +10 bonus to Tracking. They can be equipped with point-defense weapons, to shoot down the torpedoes fired by corvettes. They have moderate armor, and a moderate chance to evade.

Cruisers
These aggressive ships should be able to put out a lot of damage, but at the cost of less defense. Cruisers, like corvettes, can also be equipped with torpedoes. But unlike corvettes, they can also be equipped with hangars for strike craft. They have somewhat high armor, and a small chance to evade.

Battleships
The new role for battleships will be durable capital ships that fire at its enemies from a long distance. They are the only ship size that can be equipped with extra large weapons. They have very high armor, but minimal evasion.

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Evasion, Tracking & Armor
A new feature in the Heinlein patch will be the Tracking stat. Each weapon will have a Tracking value that determines how effective they are against ships with high evasion. Every point of Tracking reduces the target’s chance to evade that attack by the same amount. Small weapons will have high Tracking, medium weapons will have medium Tracking, and large weapons will have minimal Tracking.

This means that large weapons - with a poor Tracking value - will still be very effective against large ships like cruisers or battleships, but almost useless against small ships like corvettes due to their high evasion.

The armor penetration of weapons has also been rebalanced so that large weapons have a much higher armor penetration values than smaller weapons.

In effect, this means that small weapons are good at shooting at small ships, while large weapons are good at shooting at large ships.

Another note is that missile weapons no longer ignore evasion, and can be evaded like normal. Most missiles, however, will have a very high Tracking value.

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New Slots
Something new in the Heinlein patch will be the introduction of a couple of new slot types.

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The extra large slot will contain powerful spinal-mounted weapons that are designed to target and take out enemy capital ships. Only Battleships will have a ship section with this weapon slot.

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The torpedo slot, as evident by its name, will hold torpedoes. Torpedoes are slow firing weapons that deal massive damage, perfect for taking down larger ships. Unlike other missiles, however, torpedoes do not have good Tracking, which means they are very ineffective against ships with high evasion, such as corvettes or destroyers.

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The auxiliary slot will hold components that have ship-wide effects. Crystal-Forged Armor, Shield Capacitors and Regenerative Hull Tissue are examples of components that will now be equipped in this slot.

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Point-defense weapons now have its own slot size. The idea is that you should need to specialize some ships into countering enemy torpedoes

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Major weapon rebalancing
Most weapons have been rebalanced to better suit the new design.

That's all for this week! Join us again next monday when we’ll be back with another dev diary!
 
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Did you change battle computers too, to better fit new ship roles ? Current ones are quite simple , and IIRC Wiz said something about them.
 
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Will there be ways to increase ship evasion, as a counter to weapons systems with high tracking? Perhaps an ECM auxiliary system? Could be useful if you go up against someone relying heavily on missiles...

Afterburners. ECM would be a nice inclusion to though!
 
Just a few questions.

What (if anything) is planned to keep corvettes relevant in the destroyers-and-corvettes era, before cruisers and battleships come into play? Since destroyers seem to be fundamentally corvette killers, it seems like a game of rock-paper, barring overwhelming numbers, until cruisers come into play and start devouring destroyers and missing corvettes.

Are there plans to introduce "kinetic torpedoes" to go with the energy torpedoes and, naturally, missile torpedoes? Or will torpedo class weapons perhaps be moved to their own tree?

EDIT: Also, kinda glad to see that ship part names now, well, make sense!
 
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Just a few questions.

What (if anything) is planned to keep corvettes relevant in the destroyers-and-corvettes era, before cruisers and battleships come into play? Since destroyers seem to be fundamentally corvette killers, it seems like a game of rock-paper, barring overwhelming numbers, until cruisers come into play and start devouring destroyers and missing corvettes.

Are there plans to introduce "kinetic torpedoes" to go with the energy torpedoes and, naturally, missile torpedoes? Or will torpedo class weapons perhaps be moved to their own tree?

EDIT: Also, kinda glad to see that ship part names now, well, make sense!

Aren't destroyers already largely anti corvette anyway?
 
I don't think ships should be specialized by class, but by their modules, but we shall see how this works out.

An other thing: some kind of formations/battle tactics are needed. maybe i want my corvettes to rush ahead and take out some target, sometimes i just want my pd destroyers to stay back and defend my battleships against toprpedos etc
 
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So how will the extra large weapon be useful against small ships? Will handful of corvettes always be able to take down battleship?
This ship roles change seems to me a little bit like the problem of balance is swept under the carpet by rock-paper-scissor (-lizard-Spock) system. Maybe it will be for the better, dunno, will have to try how will it play out. In most other games I ended with fleets of battleships and discarder smaller vessels so if there will be mechanism to use all of ship types then good. Still this solution looks a little bit artificial to me though.

It does seem a bit rock paper scissors, but considering the current way things play out, this is most definitely an improvement.
 
Seems interesting, but a couple of things I'd like to ask:

1) Corvettes are big ship killers, but they're also the starting ships. Can you still mount small guns or corvettes, or are we going to start the game with battles of corvettes flinging torpedoes at one another and missing horribly the whole time?

2) Is there any change to the number of hangars that can be equipped on cruisers and battleships? Right now, even picking all the hangar based slots only gives you a handful of fighters. I'd really like to see setups where most of a capital ships modules can be set up to contain strike fighters--basically making true carriers.
 
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Good update.
I am not sure about destroyers having innate bonus to tracking. Why not just boost destroyer-specific combat computers into giving tracking bonus?
What would be the difference? The bonus is innate to the hull, or innate to a module that can only be mounted to the hull.

How would this be any kind of improvement?
 
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What would be the difference? The bonus is innate to the hull, or innate to a module that can only be mounted to the hull.

How would this be any kind of improvement?
Bonuses innate to the hull are not immediately obvious. At least not from the screenshots. Look at the screenshot that portrays a destroyer - does it say anywhere that it got 10% bonus on account of being destroyer? No, but if you mouseover the computer, it tells you what bonuses it gives.
Better than expect everyone to read all dev diaries to know all hidden bonuses.
 
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I doubt that will change current state of warfare. Instead of bilding 100 destroyers doomstack every player will build 10 battleship-20-cruiser-30-destroyer-50corvetter or something like that doomstack.
More clicking for the same result. That's like EUIV change, when everyone build pure artillery armies and then afteк changes army pattern remained the same just with different proportion. We even have templates for that.
 
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Between this method of rebalancing the classes and the new 'pirate space creature' system where sentient creatures that pre exist your civilization are being represented by a mechanic designed to show native space-fauna; I have to say I am really starting to question the game design.

Pair this with the almost visceral opposition to an engaging and expanded ground-combat mechanic, I am seeing dark omens.

@Wiz, you better change course I am going to have to play more EU4 instead...
 
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I like the reworking of how ships work, it was something I've been hoping to see for a while now. Yeah, it does feel a bit rock-paper-scissors-ish to me, but I think you can't fully avoid it if you want all ship classes to function. In past space 4X games I've played once you get the next ship type you just start building fleets of that, which I've never liked. I've always wanted fleets of mixed ship sizes fulfilling specific roles instead of just small, medium, large, and extra large sizes of ships with just more of what you use. I like the idea of cruisers being the back bone of my fleet, with battleships having the biggest punch while needing to screen them with destroyers from corvettes searching for holes in my lines to exploit. I know it probably won't work out exactly that way, but I think this is a move in the right direction.

I'm looking forward to what else is coming down the pipe for the next patch and the DLC. I'm hopeful we might find something of a trade system similar to SWOTS or like in EU4.
 
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First of all, what will be the X-slot explosive weapon? For energy we have Lances, for kinetic - the Giga cannons... But as far as I'm aware, there is no such "spinal-mounted" weapon in the explosive weapons category. Swarmer missiles aren't it. ...In fact, I can't even think up anything but "really big rocket/torpedo" that might be this. And even then, there is no reasonable reason why it can't just be an L-slot weapon.

Second... I really really hope that we would still be able to build generalist ships (e.g., battleships that are at least somewhat equipped to deal with any kind of target, be it a small and fast ship or something big and slow/stationary, as well as having at least minimal point defense). Perhaps, for the battleships, we can get a choice between X slot section and one with a couple of P slots? While I agree that all-battleships/all-destroyer fleets should not be the thing, I still believe that a jack-of-all-trades builds should be possible (even if not as efficient as a mix of specialist ships).

And speaking of point defense. What will happen to Flak batteries? Will they remain an L slot weapon, or will they be rebuilt into a P slot one?
 
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These shiproles are ridiculous, the shipdesign should give them a role, not their size. Why cant I build a fat battleship with cluster artillery to shoot corvettes like clay pigeons, that would give others the reason to build a battleship with anti-battleship weapons. Now it seems only dangerous to build battleships.

Give a soldier a bazooka, his role is anti-tank
Give a solder a machine gun, his role is fire support or fire supremacy.
Give a soldier a rifle, his role is anti-soldier, medium range.
Its always a soldier, his utilities makes the role. Please let shipdesigns be free, if wanted, so I can decide which role it should play.

What about Support ships/Command ships ? You can have a fleet with more than a few hundred ships and only one commander is leading them ? Cap the fleetsize limit, so you are forced to have more than one commander. The ship he is leading from is more valueable than others, because it can lead into an unorganized fleet with less effectiveness if the leader dies / the leading ship is disabled.
 
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It seems to be that a potential idea to counter the 'doom-stacks' is to model in some sort of command and control factor into the ships. Let there be a maximum fleet size dictated by current technology - call it ability to communicate/integrate ships - i.e. base level is ship weight of ten (corvettes - 1, destroyers - 3, etc). Having Admirals assigned can extend it based on a percentage (i.e. 50% more ship weight). If your fleet goes over the 'command weight', there are increasingly harsh penalties. Have cruisers and battleships have a special 'C' slot which lets them increase the weight of the fleet with new modules (i.e. flag bridge, CIC, etc) as befitting their 'flagship' status.
 
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It seems to be that a potential idea to counter the 'doom-stacks' is to model in some sort of command and control factor into the ships. Let there be a maximum fleet size dictated by current technology - call it ability to communicate/integrate ships - i.e. base level is ship weight of ten (corvettes - 1, destroyers - 3, etc). Having Admirals assigned can extend it based on a percentage (i.e. 50% more ship weight). If your fleet goes over the 'command weight', there are increasingly harsh penalties. Have cruisers and battleships have a special 'C' slot which lets them increase the weight of the fleet with new modules (i.e. flag bridge, CIC, etc) as befitting their 'flagship' status.
Wow, you just invented Hearts of Iron 3
 
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This feels overly restrictive. it's basically rock paper scissors spock. If each class hard counters another, what is the point of ship design ? Also the DD was very scarce in new info. What about the rebalance of Laser/Missile/Kinetic tech ?
 
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