Stellaris Dev Diary #196: [REDACTED]

[Tamwin5]

So Spy Networks are the opportunity costs of an Envoy. Which leads me to ask, assuming you're not Genocidal, why even bother with that when you can instead just Improve/Harm relations for a total value of +-400 total?

(Also how is Bureau of Espionage an edict? Wouldn't it, ya know, be a building? Might need a name change)

I do appreciate the ability to go full 1984, though.

Because getting someone to really like you or really hate you doesn't give you any intel about their strength, doesn't make them like or hate other nations, doesn't give you any tech boost, etc.

I do agree that the edict could use a better name though.

 

[SeraphAscending]

While this could help spiritualists I don’t like a playstyle that is inherently worse and can just survive by stealing tech, instead of being actually good in something themselves.

I get your worry, but i think it could potentially be even more powerful, because an espionage focus could possibly enable you to copy tech (or maybe just earn you research points) from multiple other empires at once, making you progress faster than any of them.

It wouldn't fix the "underpowered spiritualists/hive" problem in every other regard, but it would give them an entirely new playstyle that puts them on par with research-focused empires.
To be viable they don't need to be viable in the same way. If that route would actually give that significant advantages they could potentially compete again.

 

[Mulleks]

So what of this affects how Gestalts are played? How will hive minds interact? Do they get any cool techs or changes to their ascensions or will they be left out on this one?

 

[Dayknight]

hmm
I really like this diary but I think bonus from psi-counter espionage tech and authoritarian one should be swapped(or at least give more bonus to psionic one)
It is kinda weird that you get inferior one when you ascend

 

[Panzerslothen]

Will we get a tradition tree dedicated to espionage? It would be nice if we did.

Instead of just changing a few of our current traditions to benifit espionage.

Paradox, I beseech you to make this happen.

(More Tradition trees is something the base game really could do with, it would spice stuff up greatly)

 

[Flying Scorpion]

Does it make a difference? Does it significantly help you to achieve your goals?

Currently, Research helps you with a lot of things you might want to do, including unlocking them in the first place. Unity doesn't really, or at least not not after you have unlocked all the tradition trees, which happens pretty fast even without having a single priest or culture worker.

"Does it make a difference" is a little ambiguous dontcha think? If I understand you correctly, you're saying science output is more impactful towards a win or a loss than unity or this new espionage system? You might be right. Thankfully there's mods that can be used to buff other options or nerf the op stuff. And it looks like there's buffs to psionics with this newest update. In the post they said they won't allow you to kill leaders but I'm confident someone could make a mod that enables that as an option. I could probably write one where you form a coup, assassinate a leader, replace it with a sucky leader that has negative modifiers like -reaearch and -stability. Lots of options.

 

[Janx14]

Call me cynical but I'm gonna guess counter-intelligence, the thing that hives and psions are good at, will either be useless or somehow outdone by machines anyway.

That said, I'm curious how this turns out.

 

[Arcvalons]

Do Rogue Servitors have an equivalent to Free Haven? They should IMO

 

[LystAP]

While I understand the mallus to Counter Espionage, I think there should be advantages to Espionage for empires that take Free Haven, and Egalitarian/Xenophile empires in general. Greater willingness to know and understand other cultures can make it easier to get information, like how during WW2, the Allies had Japanese and German American spies working on cracking and infiltrating enemy networks. For Free Haven, on one hand it's easier to infiltrate your empire, on the other hand, it may be easier to recruit spies that would better fit into your opponent's culture without them being detected.

The high living standards of Egalitarian empires, and tolerant attitude of Xenophile empires can lead to greater incentive for unhappy or ambitious personnel to defect. In-game, we already have that Envoy event where your envoy runs off with a alien lover. Appreciating other cultures can be like appreciating their art, and having a mind open enough to understand said art and culture - enough to plan their destruction.

 

[Harfus]

Will the ascention perk enigmatic engineering affect any intrigue bonuses?

 

[Zahn82]

Please let the Sabotage Missions cause negative modifiers instead of just damaging buildings. That would imho just end in a not enjoyable whack a mole game.

Something like Sabotage Production, Research Administration, Happiness could be more satisfying.

 

[Liggi]

I want to echo all of the people complaining about the "Free Haven" nerf. I definitely feel like that civic should also have an upside in terms of espionage to represent the breadth of cultures / peoples coming into your society and bringing their ideas and insights with them.

 

[Kalenicus]

I’m very curious to know how the Sentry Array and Interstellar Assembly will be affected by these changes. The Sentry Array in particular, it seems like it wouldn’t fit in its current iteration.

 

[HighKings_Ruin]

I’m very curious to know how the Sentry Array and Interstellar Assembly will be affected by these changes. The Sentry Array in particular, it seems like it wouldn’t fit in its current iteration.

Yeah, that thing should provide an enormous amount of intel abilities, it needs a rework.

 

[Katsue]

(Also how is Bureau of Espionage an edict? Wouldn't it, ya know, be a building? Might need a name change)

No, a Bureau of Espionage would definitely be represented by an Edict rather than a building. Edicts in non-Gestalt Empires represent the creation (or dismantling when cancelled) of powerful bureaucracies that promote specific policies - that's why you can implement Edicts above your Edict capacity at the cost of Administrative capacity.

 

[Methone]

Because getting someone to really like you or really hate you doesn't give you any intel about their strength, doesn't make them like or hate other nations, doesn't give you any tech boost, etc.

I do agree that the edict could use a better name though.

"you doesn't give you any intel about their strength" - I don't see that nearly as valuable as making someone your BFF.

"oesn't make them like or hate other nations, doesn't give you any tech boost, etc." - I must've missed the part where this new spy network does that.

 

[The_Draco]

well, i think psionics and hives should be best in gathering informations, stealing tech and manipulate, cause psionics are able to "read" and "manipulate" the Minds of theyr targets and Hives can assimilate them, same with Driven Assimilators.

Counterspionage is something, Gestalts (if not RS) and Psionics should be best at, cause they have "connected" minds where any "differences to normal" should be soon detected.

Machines are good in de- and encrypting, that is correct.
Free Haven empires and Ruge Servitors themselfs are bad in counterspionage, but the more species they collect, the more benefits they should get in gathering informations, stealing tech and also de- and encrypting (wich makes RS possible to be the best at de- and encrypting).

All other are "normal" can specialise but even than not compare to the abilitys the above called can possibly reach
thats my opinion how it should be and how it would be most realistic

 

[DrFranknfurter]

There's a lot of good, interesting stuff. I only have a few Minor quibbles about theme and word choice:

Encryption/Decryption feels far too computery for something performed by an organic Hive mind.

Could swap the text for Hives from Encryption/Decryption to read "Camouflage/Pattern Recognition" or something equally organic sounding. A single word would be nice and simple, something like Obfuscation "make obscure, unclear, or unintelligible." and Intuition "the ability to understand something instinctively, without the need for conscious reasoning."

Could be just my personal preference but I don't imagine my drones sending messages between each other using ciphers with quantum key encryption but instead camouflaging their troop movements by literally camouflaging or burying ships, spying on enemies using xenomorphs physically hidden somewhere to observe enemy movements and behaviours and abduct key scientists, or determining troop movements and reacting to them instinctively like a rabbit that senses a predator closing in to strike... I just don't picture xenomorphs sat in a code-breaking lab with pencils balanced on their smooth head (no ears to tuck behind), with a much smaller pencil held by their inner jaw while they crouch, deep in concentration, trying to break the enemy codes.

Similarly Divination/Psionic Cyphers would be an amusing swap for psionically ascended empires to represent them relying on more arcane means of breaking and protecting information (purely text changes to fit the theme of each empire type... though if those actually had different effects on different targets it would be needlessly complex, but amazing - i.e. different event texts, options like psionic battles vs cracking codes vs revealing buried ships).

Unmanaged Spy Networks (those without an envoy directing them) pause all ongoing activities and rapidly decay.

Have you considered adding techs/traditions/civics that relate to the concept of Sleeper Agents? Intentionally Inactive Assets
I see the role for active assets: "each Asset increases the Spy Network cap in that empire by 5" with ways of acquiring and using assets being shown later. I'm just thinking of a civic or playstyle that is based about having spies in every empire that are just waiting to be used.

Mechanically these could work by:
1. Adding a minimum "Spy Network Level" with 0 decay rate once you reach this level. So if you've established a network once it's easier and faster to reach max spy network level at a later date as you aren't starting from 0.
2. Reducing the decay rate of unmanaged spy networks (e.g. to -0.1/month instead of -1/month), so you can pre-build high "Spy Network Levels" and then move the envoy on to establishing spy networks elsewhere only to come back years later to reactivate Sleeper Agents when situations change.

Also it would fit Fallen empire theme for them to gain sleeper agents but normally never actually use them, not until the empires awaken and start using all those sleeper agents they have been slowly growing over time (Shadows and Vorlons are the obvious example here).


Lastly I'm really glad old civics are getting a bit of love. I just want to chime in that if we're reworking old civics I'd prefer it if the civics more closely matched the intended theme.

Hive Minds get counter-espionage boosts, so looking at existing civics that mention attention/divergence/information spread:
1. Divided Attention
"The Hive Mind can divide its attention for maximum efficiency without losing sight of the bigger picture. "
+1 Counter Espionage
Maximum Spy Network Level: +10
(it's weak enough already that two bonuses wouldn't make it amazing. But it fits that this Hive mind would be better at planting spies and keeping track of enemy units).

2. One Mind
"The Hive Mind takes care to not let its drones diverge."
+1 Counter espionage
-10 Deviancy
(It's about reducing divergence/deviancy but it doesn't actually do that currently, more roaming hunter-killer drones would seriously hamper espionage attempts)

3. Pooled Knowledge
"The Hive Minds' autonomous drones frequently share knowledge through direct links, bypassing the Hive Mind's slower registry processes"
+1 Minimum Leader Level
-1 Encryption (-1 Information Camouflage)
(Those direct links sound more easy to tap to me without catching the attention of the entire hive. Also pooling knowledge should do a little more than give a mere +10% xp gain. Actually all of those +10% xp gain bonuses are far too low to actually change your gameplay to make the game revolve around leaders, perhaps +1 xp per month base xp gain (closer to a 20-28% xp bonus, multiplicatively boosted by technology rather than additively, you may actually be able to reach the highest levels this way)

4. Devouring Swarm
"Our Hive Mind exist only to consume and grow stronger. We will collect all available bio-matter and evolve to consume the galaxy!"
-1 Encryption/Camouflage, they don't exactly hide their intentions... they want to eat everything... although you could argue they're better at hunting/being stealthy than a more passive friendly hive mind would be if you wanted to justify instead giving them +1 Encryption/Camouflage)
+2 Counter Intelligence (They eat absolutely everything, luckily for them this includes enemy assets)


Conversely Machine Empires really fit the theme of Encryption and Decryption. So:
1. Delegated Functions
"The Machine Intelligence works to reduce vulnerability by increasing modularity, reducing the strain of deploying additional semi-independent Units. "
+1 Encryption. (Reduced vulnerability to failures/bugs in the code also reduces vulnerability to hackers)

2. Introspective
"A fascination with its own internals both motivates and aids the Machine Intelligence's foray into the sciences."
+1 Counter Espionage kinda fits even if I wasn't sure at first (they can more quickly spot changes to internal mechanisms, but they aren't inherently any more difficult to hack or decipher... so Encryption doesn't fit perfectly here)

3. Factory Overclocking
"The Machine Intelligence takes care to maintain its production facilities, regularly updating existing templates and tuning individual units on the assembly line. "
+1 Encryption (hackers would have to deal with a constantly changing set of hardware and templates, nothing is out of date with long-standing vulnerabilities in this empire. Makes life hard for a hacker.)

4. Maintenance Protocols
"Our machine intelligence prioritizes regular maintenance of our units. Maintenance Drones regularly upgrade and adjust our units for maximum efficiency and compatibility. "
(could argue regular maintenance would spot sabotage more quickly for +1 Counter Espionage. Or conversely that making all your units compatible with each other would facilitate enemy actions, giving -1 Encryption. Or that regular software updates would make it harder for hackers as they have a smaller window before vulnerabilities are patched out giving +1 Encryption... so this probably isn't as clear cut)

5. Determined Exterminator
"Born in fire, the Machine Intelligence's first move was to annihilate its organic creators in self-defense."
+1 Decryption (They killed their creators in part by overriding their security mechanisms and failsafes)

6. Driven Assimilator
"Obsessed with survival through diversification, the Machine Intelligence seeks to erase the line between itself and everything - and everyone - else."
+2 Decryption (These are the Borg, the Borg would be trying to steal technology to add to their own, also they should be able to use the memories of assimilated units to break encryption)
-1 Encryption/-1 Counter Intelligence (Having hundreds of assimilating drones around would make it very easy for hostile powers to plant spies and sneak amongst them)

In practice it may not matter mechanically if you get the bonus mostly from the authority or the civics, but civics offer more meaningful choices and variety than having all machines and hives having the same gameplay with respect to espionage. (So instead of say +2/2 Encryption/Decryption for Machine Authority instead give them +1/1 with another +1/1 on average coming from civics so you end up with a more varied +1-3/+1-3 Encryption/Decryption instead.)

 

[The_Draco]

There's a lot of good, interesting stuff. I only have a few Minor quibbles about theme and word choice:

Encryption/Decryption feels far too computery for something performed by an organic Hive mind.

Could swap the text for Hives from Encryption/Decryption to read "Camouflage/Pattern Recognition" or something equally organic sounding. A single word would be nice and simple, something like Obfuscation "make obscure, unclear, or unintelligible." and Intuition "the ability to understand something instinctively, without the need for conscious reasoning."

Could be just my personal preference but I don't imagine my drones sending messages between each other using ciphers with quantum key encryption but instead camouflaging their troop movements by literally camouflaging or burying ships, spying on enemies using xenomorphs physically hidden somewhere to observe enemy movements and behaviours and abduct key scientists, or determining troop movements and reacting to them instinctively like a rabbit that senses a predator closing in to strike... I just don't picture xenomorphs sat in a code-breaking lab with pencils balanced on their smooth head (no ears to tuck behind), with a much smaller pencil held by their inner jaw while they crouch, deep in concentration, trying to break the enemy codes.

Similarly Divination/Psionic Cyphers would be an amusing swap for psionically ascended empires to represent them relying on more arcane means of breaking and protecting information (purely text changes to fit the theme of each empire type... though if those actually had different effects on different targets it would be needlessly complex, but amazing - i.e. different event texts, options like psionic battles vs cracking codes vs revealing buried ships).


Have you considered adding techs/traditions/civics that relate to the concept of Sleeper Agents? Intentionally Inactive Assets
I see the role for active assets: "each Asset increases the Spy Network cap in that empire by 5" with ways of acquiring and using assets being shown later. I'm just thinking of a civic or playstyle that is based about having spies in every empire that are just waiting to be used.

Mechanically these could work by:
1. Adding a minimum "Spy Network Level" with 0 decay rate once you reach this level. So if you've established a network once it's easier and faster to reach max spy network level at a later date as you aren't starting from 0.
2. Reducing the decay rate of unmanaged spy networks (e.g. to -0.1/month instead of -1/month), so you can pre-build high "Spy Network Levels" and then move the envoy on to establishing spy networks elsewhere only to come back years later to reactivate Sleeper Agents when situations change.

Also it would fit Fallen empire theme for them to gain sleeper agents but normally never actually use them, not until the empires awaken and start using all those sleeper agents they have been slowly growing over time (Shadows and Vorlons are the obvious example here).


Lastly I'm really glad old civics are getting a bit of love. I just want to chime in that if we're reworking old civics I'd prefer it if the civics more closely matched the intended theme.

Hive Minds get counter-espionage boosts, so looking at existing civics that mention attention/divergence/information spread:
1. Divided Attention
"The Hive Mind can divide its attention for maximum efficiency without losing sight of the bigger picture. "
+1 Counter Espionage
Maximum Spy Network Level: +10
(it's weak enough already that two bonuses wouldn't make it amazing. But it fits that this Hive mind would be better at planting spies and keeping track of enemy units).

2. One Mind
"The Hive Mind takes care to not let its drones diverge."
+1 Counter espionage
-10 Deviancy
(It's about reducing divergence/deviancy but it doesn't actually do that currently, more roaming hunter-killer drones would seriously hamper espionage attempts)

3. Pooled Knowledge
"The Hive Minds' autonomous drones frequently share knowledge through direct links, bypassing the Hive Mind's slower registry processes"
+1 Minimum Leader Level
-1 Encryption (-1 Information Camouflage)
(Those direct links sound more easy to tap to me without catching the attention of the entire hive. Also pooling knowledge should do a little more than give a mere +10% xp gain. Actually all of those +10% xp gain bonuses are far too low to actually change your gameplay to make the game revolve around leaders, perhaps +1 xp per month base xp gain (closer to a 20-28% xp bonus, multiplicatively boosted by technology rather than additively, you may actually be able to reach the highest levels this way)

4. Devouring Swarm
"Our Hive Mind exist only to consume and grow stronger. We will collect all available bio-matter and evolve to consume the galaxy!"
-1 Encryption/Camouflage, they don't exactly hide their intentions... they want to eat everything... although you could argue they're better at hunting/being stealthy than a more passive friendly hive mind would be if you wanted to justify instead giving them +1 Encryption/Camouflage)
+2 Counter Intelligence (They eat absolutely everything, luckily for them this includes enemy assets)


Conversely Machine Empires really fit the theme of Encryption and Decryption. So:
1. Delegated Functions
"The Machine Intelligence works to reduce vulnerability by increasing modularity, reducing the strain of deploying additional semi-independent Units. "
+1 Encryption. (Reduced vulnerability to failures/bugs in the code also reduces vulnerability to hackers)

2. Introspective
"A fascination with its own internals both motivates and aids the Machine Intelligence's foray into the sciences."
+1 Counter Espionage kinda fits even if I wasn't sure at first (they can more quickly spot changes to internal mechanisms, but they aren't inherently any more difficult to hack or decipher... so Encryption doesn't fit perfectly here)

3. Factory Overclocking
"The Machine Intelligence takes care to maintain its production facilities, regularly updating existing templates and tuning individual units on the assembly line. "
+1 Encryption (hackers would have to deal with a constantly changing set of hardware and templates, nothing is out of date with long-standing vulnerabilities in this empire. Makes life hard for a hacker.)

4. Maintenance Protocols
"Our machine intelligence prioritizes regular maintenance of our units. Maintenance Drones regularly upgrade and adjust our units for maximum efficiency and compatibility. "
(could argue regular maintenance would spot sabotage more quickly for +1 Counter Espionage. Or conversely that making all your units compatible with each other would facilitate enemy actions, giving -1 Encryption. Or that regular software updates would make it harder for hackers as they have a smaller window before vulnerabilities are patched out giving +1 Encryption... so this probably isn't as clear cut)

5. Determined Exterminator
"Born in fire, the Machine Intelligence's first move was to annihilate its organic creators in self-defense."
+1 Decryption (They killed their creators in part by overriding their security mechanisms and failsafes)

6. Driven Assimilator
"Obsessed with survival through diversification, the Machine Intelligence seeks to erase the line between itself and everything - and everyone - else."
+2 Decryption (These are the Borg, the Borg would be trying to steal technology to add to their own, also they should be able to use the memories of assimilated units to break encryption)
-1 Encryption/-1 Counter Intelligence (Having hundreds of assimilating drones around would make it very easy for hostile powers to plant spies and sneak amongst them)

In practice it may not matter mechanically if you get the bonus mostly from the authority or the civics, but civics offer more meaningful choices and variety than having all machines and hives having the same gameplay with respect to espionage. (So instead of say +2/2 Encryption/Decryption for Machine Authority instead give them +1/1 with another +1/1 on average coming from civics so you end up with a more varied +1-3/+1-3 Encryption/Decryption instead.)

thats a bit more specialised on Machine empires, but what i also wanted to say, the diferences between empires abillitys and potentials in espionage and its specialised "categorys" should be complex and based also on Civics, traits and later on traditions and ascensionperks...
but if that is done too complex, it could make synthetics even stronger, cause they would get the decryption bonus by being able to turn Minds into Algorhytms, so like DE, in case of xenophile synths they would also add the boons like DA and RS (you didn't talk about them).. and synths are way too strong already

 

[Nero1333]

Are we going to be able to Arm Rebels and Pirates? cause that sounds like something that would be fun