Stellaris Dev Diary #196: [REDACTED]

[Rezca]

The last DLC (Necroids) was a species pack, and the one before that (Federations) was a mechanics-focused DLC oriented towards being nice to other empires, so it makes sense to follow up with a mechanics-focused DLC oriented towards being nasty to other empires.

Nice to them, or at the very least being passively aggressive towards them by getting them to end up violating Galactic Law in some way or form

But yeah, doing another species pack so soon after Necroids wouldn't make too much sense. After this Big Update though I could see it along with another Story Pack, since that feels like the rough general approach they go for. Big Update -> Minor DLC's -> Big Update -> More minor DLC's, etc

 

[styroler]

Provocations

It is finally time to kick off the Great Galactic War by assassinating Space Franz Ferdinand

 

[styroler]

I'm sure the question has come up in development but I'm Curious. Will Fallen Empire's be immune to espionage? And of not will they ever use such methods themselves?

 

[styroler]

Exciting, I have always wanted more interaction within your own empire, and this really helps.
The tracking of people for counterintelligence can really play into rp with police states and authoritarian countries. I would assume that egalitarian countries would not be able to do these things

Envoys also resemble diplomats in the real world, where they are often used for spying and espionage.

Operations also seem interesting, can't wait!

How would espionage work with gesalt empires? It seems that they would be less prone to espionage due to their very nature.

I think they answered this in the dev diary itself. Espionage in the world of space travel isn't just about secret agents physically sneaking into another nation, but hacking computer systems, turning deviant drones, and hijacking defective robots. They show one of the robot civics, introspective, gives a bonus to counterintelligence now, and im sure other types will have similar civics, but having armies of highly predictable and non-sentient drones built to handle single, individual tasks doesn't mean its hard to bypass their security, it just means that spies have to be a little creative with their approach. If that were true, then all the parasites and computer viruses which make it into real life insect colonies and computer systems would have no chance.

 

[3Davideo]

While the number of uses for Envoys are increasing, the number available will also increase.

Oh good, I was just about to suggest increasing the number of Envoys, even at the cost of each individual Envoy doing less, especially since Envoys will be tied up maintaining a spy network in addition to building them.

I hope to see if internal malcontent (or the lack thereof) will be useful in espionage defense / asset recruitment - realistically, a society that impoverishes its citizens or represses other species would present more opportunities for another empire to recruit willing co-conspirators. After all, this was one of the factors as to how the British were so successful in counter-espionage against the Germans in WWII.

 

[nainredwood]

I really look forward to seeing the final version of this system. It sounds like it will add an interesting aspect if not fun to the game... except for one thing

* Sabotage - Ruining things (physical or immaterial)

That one have me worried. I obviously don't have a problem with doing the ruining. But I've never seen a game where I enjoy things randomly getting blown up or get destroyed in my backyard. Systems like that have a high inherent risk of giving the player a feeling of helplessness followed by frustration. So please keep this aspect in mind when designing this system. Fun and all things cool should be the name of the game after all.

 

[styroler]

Oh good, I was just about to suggest increasing the number of Envoys, even at the cost of each individual Envoy doing less, especially since Envoys will be tied up maintaining a spy network in addition to building them.

It seems you only use one Envoy per network though. The intention isn't that envoys need to do everything just that this stuff ain't free and you can't just go around doing everything to everyone at once.

 

[3Davideo]

It seems you only use one Envoy per network though. The intention isn't that envoys need to do everything just that this stuff ain't free and you can't just go around doing everything to everyone at once.

True, but I'm thinking of, say, current Machine Empires, who are limited to a single Envoy (outside of the Interstellar Assembly Megastructure and a few Federation perks). They'd be much more useful if the Envoy pool was doubled across the board, but each one is half as effective compared to now. Of course, I'm also assuming you can assign multiple envoys to Build Spy Network per empire at a time to build it out faster, if needed.

 

[The Founder]

Envoys and Spy Networks

Envoys will have a new diplomatic task available to them called Build Spy Network. They will take their place as the Spymaster of a network of covert operatives and agents that they will grow in power over time. Needless to say, the other empire will not be informed of your envoy's new position.

Build Spy Network diplomatic action

Baby steps.

While an envoy is managing a Spy Network as Spymaster, the Network will grow over time - quickly at first, but slower as the Network gains in strength. Networks are far faster to build in large, sprawling empires, and if the target empire’s Encryption rating is much stronger than the spying empire’s Decryption, growth may also slow to a crawl. (Machine Intelligences have a natural knack for Encryption and Decryption, while Hives and psionic empires tend to excel at Counter Espionage.)

Unmanaged Spy Networks (those without an envoy directing them) pause all ongoing activities and rapidly decay.

So basically EU 4 Envoys with a name and picture

Fanatic Purifiers will be able to use their envoys to build spy networks. It's not exactly diplomacy.

What about Infiltration of Primitives? It sounds like Envoys should be the ones doing infiltraition, ethics manipulation and uplifting missions.
Will you get around to doing that rework with this?

No. Early on we had something like this in the list of possible operations, but part of the difficulty of espionage systems in general is that they have to still be fun when you're the one getting dogpiled by a dozen empires running them on you.

Can empires still cooperate against a shared foe within limits? Something like +10 Spy Network cap per extra Empire?
What about spying from Federations? On Federations as a whole? On Federation allies?
What about a Strongest or Challenge Federation sucession that uses the amount of Spy Network Power you have on your "allies" and uses the amount of spies set to mutual internal espionage for Cohesion?

 

[Daurien]

I came late to the party, so this might have been brought up before, but I feel slightly concerned that envoys will handle espionage rather than a new leader type such as "agent". Firstly, it gives the vibes that Stellaris will become Universe Universalis IV, something that was already worrisome from things like FTL inhibitors acting like fort zone of control in EUIV. I would like to see Stellaris maintain its own franchise identity. Furthermore, while many have pointed out that many agents in real life are recruited from diplomatic corps, not all of them are especially the cyber espionage parts. Not all agents are capable of acting as diplomats as well. Dedicated intelligence agencies exist in almost every real nation now, why would they not in space age empires? HOI4 was able to handle espionage in a new and exciting way, and I was hoping for more from Stellaris as well.

 

[grommile]

I came late to the party, so this might have been brought up before, but I feel slightly concerned that envoys will handle espionage

See this post:

Stellaris Dev Diary #196: [REDACTED]

-ðsžšåÞя©Â£ŠŘ§Ů½æآé- Attn: Spymaster Utra, daughter of Roba, Our operatives have provided information on the activities of the vile Paradoxians. Despite their attempts at secrecy, we have managed to acquire some intel. The images our agents...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

and following.

 

[Libertine Angel]

I came late to the party, so this might have been brought up before, but I feel slightly concerned that envoys will handle espionage rather than a new leader type such as "agent". Firstly, it gives the vibes that Stellaris will become Universe Universalis IV, something that was already worrisome from things like FTL inhibitors acting like fort zone of control in EUIV. I would like to see Stellaris maintain its own franchise identity. Furthermore, while many have pointed out that many agents in real life are recruited from diplomatic corps, not all of them are especially the cyber espionage parts. Not all agents are capable of acting as diplomats as well. Dedicated intelligence agencies exist in almost every real nation now, why would they not in space age empires? HOI4 was able to handle espionage in a new and exciting way, and I was hoping for more from Stellaris as well.

The way I see it, the envoys/Spymasters are setting up and managing the local intelligence network, meaning their job is to make connections and recruit the people who'll be doing the cyber-espionage and suchlike that requires specialist skills, rather than actually doing those specific tasks personally.

 

[Cailean]

My primary concern is for Machine Intelligence players, save for them though this update looks absolutely magnificent. Machine Intelligence players currently can only reliably have -one- envoy, which horribly cripples how effectively they can utilize this new mechanic, almost to the point of not even being able to use it at all. There are only a very few select ways to gain more envoys currently as a Machine Intelligence, all of which I can think of are into the late game all of which are situational. Having to choose to befriend a single empire was already daunting enough for a friendly Machine Intelligence, now you'll also on top of that be forced to choose to befriend a single empire or to utilize this new system on a single empire.

I recommend either giving them an equivalent civic to typical organic empires (+2 envoys and 10% diplomatic weight) or something else akin to it. Maybe +3 additional envoys at the sacrifice of 10% diplomatic weight to make them feel a bit more different? Regardless of what it is, as long as they can reliably have more envoys, I'd be content with whatever is given to them.

 

[OnyxAbussos]

LOVE IT!! Thank you.
Very excited.

 

[styroler]

I really look forward to seeing the final version of this system. It sounds like it will add an interesting aspect if not fun to the game... except for one thing



That one have me worried. I obviously don't have a problem with doing the ruining. But I've never seen a game where I enjoy things randomly getting blown up or get destroyed in my backyard. Systems like that have a high inherent risk of giving the player a feeling of helplessness followed by frustration. So please keep this aspect in mind when designing this system. Fun and all things cool should be the name of the game after all.

I agree with that somewhat, but I don't want it to end up like the way they did it in Hoi4 where espionage was so nerfed that most people just ignore it anyway. In that game, it takes 3 agents almost a year to blow up one building in a game that lasts for 10 years, with while reconstruction takes about a month. Paradox has a much longer history of underpowered espionage systems than they do of annoying overpowered ones.

 

[grommile]

Paradox has a much longer history of underpowered espionage systems than they do of annoying overpowered ones.

Did you use EU3 or HOI3's systems? Or EU4's at their peak "AIs that take Espionage Ideas must be exterminated at once" state (when espionage was simultaneously very low value to the player, but spectacularly obnoxious in the hands of the AI)?

 

[smile444]

will it be possible to use genetic tech to create shape-shifting infiltrators? Maybe a species trait?

 

[Askorti]

If we build a general consensus on what Espionage should and shouldn't be able to do and thus help the devs tweak their already existing, yet still top-secret concepts more in that direction, we're not just helping the game be better and spare the devs from being constantly berated in all the subsequent dev diaries, we're also helping the game and keeping the community less divided about a very divisive topic.

You just pointed out of everyone wants different things from the espionage. You will not reach a consensus, that's one, and two, forum dwellers are but a tiny fraction of Stellaris players. Even if you somehow managed to reach a consensus here, players from outside of the forum would not agree with this "consensus".
And you would be straight back to square one with people unhappy with the scope of the mechanics.

 

[methegrate]

My primary concern is for Machine Intelligence players, save for them though this update looks absolutely magnificent. Machine Intelligence players currently can only reliably have -one- envoy, which horribly cripples how effectively they can utilize this new mechanic, almost to the point of not even being able to use it at all. There are only a very few select ways to gain more envoys currently as a Machine Intelligence, all of which I can think of are into the late game all of which are situational. Having to choose to befriend a single empire was already daunting enough for a friendly Machine Intelligence, now you'll also on top of that be forced to choose to befriend a single empire or to utilize this new system on a single empire.

I recommend either giving them an equivalent civic to typical organic empires (+2 envoys and 10% diplomatic weight) or something else akin to it. Maybe +3 additional envoys at the sacrifice of 10% diplomatic weight to make them feel a bit more different? Regardless of what it is, as long as they can reliably have more envoys, I'd be content with whatever is given to them.

I might make it a tradition tree.

Traditions really do need an overhaul anyway, after all. And those changes should be in a direction that defines how you play the game. The tradition tree I pick should inform my play style/empire identity and vice versus.

Since that’s necessary either way, maybe build one of those trees for empires that develop a tradition of espionage and treachery. That way a machine empire can evolve into an empire of spy masters over time, with plenty of agents to put into the field.

 

[NilsFabian]

The only thing that upset me was that it would not be possible to sabotage the leaders of the empire.

Others already said it, so here is what I'd like to see as a spy option.
Influence the elections. So if the UNE holds new elections you could spend influence to elect another leader. Better yet would be if you could influence factions of other empires. Yes dear UNE I know you arexenophile egalitarian, but I'm going to fill the coffers of the humanity first party, Lets make the UNE more like the CoM.