Stellaris Dev Diary #192 : Perfectly Balanced, As All Things Should Be...

Stellaris Dev Diary #192 : Perfectly Balanced, As All Things Should Be...

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LekkoBot

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On that front actually, it should be almost a requirement to resettle pops from homeworld. It's not that we will start colonizing Mars by sending Adam and Eve and letting them do their thing.
Well that is what the colony ship is supposed to represent. Forcing people to resettle aswell seems like it would be a bit too much micro.
 
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It's not that we will start colonizing Mars by sending Adam and Eve and letting them do their thing.
Considering the local environment, better to send the serpent, can uplift later :cool:.
 
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Lorenerd11

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Have you guys considered giving agriculture districts to habitats around habitable worlds?
Oh wow, this would actually be the perfect implementation!

And then if the orbited planet is destroyed with a Collossus, the districts could be automatically converted to Mining (World-Cracking) or Research (Shielding).
 
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Drachasor

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So why is the developed world experiencing a stabilization / shortfall in population count? It's not from lack of food. It's from the fact that children are expensive both in cost and in effect on lifestyle. The value of the asset is lower than its cost and improvements in accidental construction limit the number of unexpected creations.
You can't ignore the effect of birth control. Knowing kids will almost certainly surviva and having birth control are the biggest factors in decreased family size. There are countries that provide a lot of assistance in costs for raising kids, but the effect isn't very large.
 
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FrancescoT

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I understand using a logistic curve for planetary growth rate, that's dandy - what is the reasoning behind changing the amount of growth needed to produce a single pop based on the empire-wide population? That's the only aspect of the new system that doesn't quite "click" to me.
IMHO, logistic curve tackles with growth "vertically" on planet level, increased growth points tackles with growth "horizontally" on empire level. Both are necessary to tune the pace of growth and reduce the inflation in number of POPs into mid/late game.
 
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Drachasor

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Have you guys considered giving agriculture districts to habitats around habitable worlds? Given how they extract their other resources through specific planetary deposits, I feel like that would fit. But could there be a reaon this isn't implemented?
The game has hydroponic farms, so I don't really know why they don't have agricultural districts already if you have that tech.
 

sillyrobot

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You can't ignore the effect of birth control. Knowing kids will almost certainly surviva and having birth control are the biggest factors in decreased family size. There are countries that provide a lot of assistance in costs for raising kids, but the effect isn't very large.
Nor did I: "improvements in accidental construction limit the number of unexpected creations " is birth control.
 

Spaceception

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in my opinion habitats over planets don't need the agriculture districts on it, but if you could build an agriculture world with a habitat over it like pops living on the habitat and working on the agriculture districts of the planet without that malus your pops get if they live on a planet while you have the voiddweller trait... well but at least you also could use farm-bots or slaves to work on that agriculture planets, should be an option for thrall-worlds to be pure agricultural... (at least i think voiddweller-xenophobes/authoritairs are a strong combination)
My thinking was about gathering the biomatter and important resources that are found in soil from the planet as a major source of feedstock for your food. Plus it helps that farming habitats are a real concept. But the idea that your farmers would be worked harder on a farming habitat to provide food for the rest of the Empire is interesting.

Within the game though, I was thinking that because of the changes with building slots, hydroponic farms might be too restricted. Now, this might not be the case, since you have industrial and research districts being default or based on deposits, so that takes some of the pressure off. But it seems you'll usually be limited to about half a dozen building slots. How many of those will have to be farms? It does help that the processing center will add jobs, so that could be enough. I just think this is something that could be looked at, not necessarily implemented.
 
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MichaelJanuary

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There have been studies about utopian conditions where a species of rats get everything they could ever hope for.
Yeah. Familiar with those. Hilarious. Take away the imperative/need to strive for survival, and all the rats just became fat lazy slobs sitting on their couch waiting to die. No interest in procreation.

Reducing the speed of pop growth without changing its local nature provides the perverse incentive to go wider to develop even more centres of pop growth.
Yes. Exactly. A species that has stopped expanding, starts to stagnate. Hence fallen empires.

I understand using a logistic curve for planetary growth rate, that's dandy - what is the reasoning behind changing the amount of growth needed to produce a single pop based on the empire-wide population? That's the only aspect of the new system that doesn't quite "click" to me.
If you think of pops as a 'percentage' if the population (its representative rather than physical) then it takes more effort to significantly grow the population as a whole.

One way to think of it is that a significant fraction of humanities 20th century population explosion was due to increased access to medical care and improvements in medical technology. Basically, people lived longer, weren't dying like flies, but births were still high.

Now we are seemingly approaching a cap where increased life expectancy is flattening out, so the death rate is 'increasing' again, and the difference between rate of deaths and rate of births is approaching zero or even going into the negative. In other words, it's not just birth rates that have fluctuated, its death rates as well.

So while birth rates are stabilizing at somewhere around 1.9 to 2.1 per female, this is becoming only enough to stabilise the total population, not grow it.


Food surplus will always be the main defining factor for population increase.
Nah. Food is a limiting factor only for populations under threat of starvation. But when access to food is infinite, it ceases to be a factor. At some point the reasoning becomes 'do I want kids?' Rather than ' will I be able to feed them?'
 
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Katsue

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You can't ignore the effect of birth control. Knowing kids will almost certainly surviva and having birth control are the biggest factors in decreased family size. There are countries that provide a lot of assistance in costs for raising kids, but the effect isn't very large.
Economic conditions are definitely relevant to birth rates. See this chart tracking Irish birth rates from 1950 to 2020. While there is a clear downward secular trend, the birth rate in 1973 was higher than it was in 1950, and the birth rate in 2008 was higher than it was in 1994. The chart shows that periods of high unemployment like the 1950s, the 1980s, and the Great Recession, depress birth rates, and there appears to be a lag between improvement in employment rates and birth rate.


Edit: it may be of interest to note that the sale of contraceptives and the publication of information about the use of artificial contraceptives were only legalised in Ireland in 1979.
 
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DrFranknfurter

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The line of techs is currently:
View attachment 654316

The higher bonuses are tied to higher tiers of capital buildings, so resource gathering backwaters are less likely to reach maximized production levels than your heavily populated core worlds.
I like the idea of increasing throughput (I'd like it as its own modifier if possible).

But have you considered making this upgrade:
+10/20/30% Base Output and Base Upkeep from Jobs?

So that the effect is multiplicative rather than additive. Otherwise it's considerably worse the more stacking modifiers you have which is probably not the intention. It may say +10% but your research output will only increase by a very tiny percentage once you factor in the +a bazillion% from all other sources, and if you were to have -90% upkeep before applying this modifier then the +10% would effectively be +100% current upkeep costs. So it hurts coming and going (smaller benefit than the player expects, harsher penalty than expected).

Also do these modifiers apply to other job outputs? It would be annoying if Naval capacity/amenities/trade value were mostly unaffected but Soldier/Entertainer/Merchant jobs still had increased upkeep.
 
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Will gestalts - machines & hives and megacorps get the same love as regular empires?
 
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Drachasor

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Economic conditions are definitely relevant to birth rates. See this chart tracking Irish birth rates from 1950 to 2020. While there is a clear downward secular trend, the birth rate in 1973 was higher than it was in 1950, and the birth rate in 2008 was higher than it was in 1994. The chart shows that periods of high unemployment like the 1950s, the 1980s, and the Great Recession, depress birth rates, and there appears to be a lag between improvement in employment rates and birth rate.

Yes, of course horrible economic conditions have a negative effect. But beyond a certain point, better economic conditions aren't going to increase the number of kids. It's even hard to maintain the population level without immigration.
 

The_Draco

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Yes, of course horrible economic conditions have a negative effect. But beyond a certain point, better economic conditions aren't going to increase the number of kids. It's even hard to maintain the population level without immigration.
well, that is a problem of the pops prioritys, kids or career? A thing where a more cooperative kind of State will have better growth than a more competitive... if the personal career isn't much impacting the quality of life, its much more likely that the pops do theyr thing and grow kids than it is in our, capitalistic states atm...so maybe a megacorp should have less kids growing than a shared burden egalitarian... but that to implement is way too much if you want it that realistic
 

Drachasor

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well, that is a problem of the pops prioritys, kids or career? A thing where a more cooperative kind of State will have better growth than a more competitive... if the personal career isn't much impacting the quality of life, its much more likely that the pops do theyr thing and grow kids than it is in our, capitalistic states atm...so maybe a megacorp should have less kids growing than a shared burden egalitarian... but that to implement is way too much if you want it that realistic
I've already pointed out that there are many countries that provide a lot of assistance. It doesn't change things that much.
 

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That is the definition of a lazy mechanic: one that cannot be explained within the game's lore/logic and is so gamey that the optimal play is to grant your own planets independence so they grow faster and then reconquer/integrate them.
Then we have very different definitions of a lazy mechanic.
And what exactly is wrong with following a gamey tactic in a game?
 

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A thought occurred to me currently synth and machine empires get additional districts from building energy grids and mineral purification plants. This number is then doubled when those buildings are upgraded. I've noticed it's not uncommon for megacorps and normal empires to run into an issue where a sizeable chunk of their worlds are district poor. The industrial districts will help here, since it seems clear that they'll work like city districts, you can max out all districts as those. Anyways, would it be possible to have it so that the first building for energy grids, mineral purification plants & food processing facilities gave +2 districts for what they produce for megacorps and normal empires. This would give them a bit more flexibility on specializing rural worlds and leave them a little less at the mercy of RNG. I'd be fine if the upgrades didn't net them additional districts, since I don't want to take away everything unique about synth and machine empires.

I'm leaving out hive minds because hive worlds solve the issue and they should be going for that perk.
 

Tamwin5

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The line of techs is currently:
View attachment 654316

The higher bonuses are tied to higher tiers of capital buildings, so resource gathering backwaters are less likely to reach maximized production levels than your heavily populated core worlds.
For people worried about this having already stacked tons of +job production or -job upkeep, I don't think this is an issue. What this is effectively is a flat bonus to your amount of pops which don't gain any bonuses or malus. And considering that every job is a net increase of resources this is always worth it.

What I'm actually concerned about is the fact that +resources from jobs doesn't effect every resource: trade value and amenities ignore it for some reason. Admittedly it is a very minor worry, as both clerks and merchants have no upkeep, and entertainers using a few extra CG is easily offset by the bonus they give, but still.
 
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-Marauder-

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To be honest, I think the resettlement of slaves should also cost Influence. Slaves have owners and moving their property from one system to another should have a political cost. Even if you imagine that the slaves are all owned by the state, they would still be effectively the property of different Departments, Governors, or whatever.
Sure thing, as long as:

- Slaves get to be automatically resettled the way free pops are.
- The algorithm is changed so unemployed pops aren't being enslaved unless you use domestic servitude, which frankly nobody should be doing. Basing the algorithm on the worst slavery type, in the process outright screwing everyone else over seems questionable to begin with. But now slaves won't be resettled and some people want to add an influence cost to them being resettled to boot.

IMHO, logistic curve tackles with growth "vertically" on planet level, increased growth points tackles with growth "horizontally" on empire level. Both are necessary to tune the pace of growth and reduce the inflation in number of POPs into mid/late game.
Sure thing, as long as they adjust the requirement and production output/costs. If they don't we might look at some really messy hotfixes. Let's remain hopeful.

Will gestalts - machines & hives and megacorps get the same love as regular empires?
I doubt it. Machine Gestalts still lack leader traits, both Machine and Hiveminds are locked out from a lot of events, Ecumenopoli, etc. :(


For people worried about this having already stacked tons of +job production or -job upkeep, I don't think this is an issue. What this is effectively is a flat bonus to your amount of pops which don't gain any bonuses or malus. And considering that every job is a net increase of resources this is always worth it.

What I'm actually concerned about is the fact that +resources from jobs doesn't effect every resource: trade value and amenities ignore it for some reason. Admittedly it is a very minor worry, as both clerks and merchants have no upkeep, and entertainers using a few extra CG is easily offset by the bonus they give, but still.
The problem is that every additional bonus becomes "less" of a bonus. Because they all act additive rather than multiplicative. Now having all of these multiplicative would lead to an absurd inflation in terms of resource generation. But the reverse also holds true. Species traits become less relevant and impactful as you gain additional bonuses. To the point that the advertised "15%" in effect is oftentimes closer to 5% or below as it does not scale with other bonuses.

One solution might be to make species traits exclusively multiplicative with other bonuses. As they actually have a "cost" in terms of very limited trait points to keep them relevant and desirable.

As for the new technologies. The issue some people seem to have is that the increase is worth much less than the game makes it seem. While the increase to upkeep is fairly static. Let's take minerals as an example.

100% Base Mineral Production.
60% from the mining chain.
25% from the Mineral Purification hub.

This is a 185% increase compared to the base production. If we add another 30% from the final new tech. It ends up being only an overall 21,5% increase to productivity but a 30% increase to upkeep. Now the value might lie in this technology increasing specialist output/science output(?) but the more modifiers you have active the less beneficial it becomes at large.

Further, these technologies scale negatively with themselves in terms of efficiency. Each of them making the subsequent one slightly worse. And for base resources i.e minerals/energy they get worse with every repeatable. They might still be worth it for end product output ala Science, Alloys, etc. But they, funnily enough, increase inefficiency.
 
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