Stellaris Dev Diary #192 : Perfectly Balanced, As All Things Should Be...

Stellaris Dev Diary #192 : Perfectly Balanced, As All Things Should Be...

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Deshiba

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Among the reasons is that you get almost the same bonus to production on your homeworld from taking Prosperous Unification.
Life seeded could do with a little bump.
"Gaia World terraforming option"​

I feel like them starting with the terraforming option to gaia worlds would allow them to catch up trough the mid game. You'd still have to rush terraforming techs though. It'd keep them distinct from Voidborne and Ring world starts if they have this clear path without having to take an ascension perk.
 
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Eladrin

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Thinking on it, you guys (PDX) mentioned a tech line that increase both pop job production and upkeep. (So they spend more to make more.). Can you show us an example of this tech [non-final numbers being non-final, of course]?
The line of techs is currently:
1605867176317.png


The higher bonuses are tied to higher tiers of capital buildings, so resource gathering backwaters are less likely to reach maximized production levels than your heavily populated core worlds.
 
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Now it might be time to ask.. are we looking for an accompanying DLC?

Stellaris: Spies and contraception! 19,99€
 
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Deshiba

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Now it might be time to ask.. are we looking for an accompanying DLC?

Stellaris: Spies and contraception! 19,99€
Upcoming DLC would not be necessary to play with these changes, these are pretty much core game play updates available for all. (captain obvious reporting for duty)
 

Mímisbrunnr

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Thank you, Eladrin!

Perhaps you might want the description read "Planets with Capital Buildings" or "Worlds with Capital Buildings", or some variation of that so that players don't mistakenly think that only the capital is getting the bonus.

But this is a cool idea.
 
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The line of techs is currently:
View attachment 654316

The higher bonuses are tied to higher tiers of capital buildings, so resource gathering backwaters are less likely to reach maximized production levels than your heavily populated core worlds.
Feels somewhat unfair.

Imagine a pop with +25% to mineral production and -10% upkeep (from traits/traditions/other). A seemingly equal increase/decrease of say 30%, is in reality a 24% increase in output (155%/125%) and a 33% increase in input (120%/90%).
 
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sillyrobot

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Reducing the speed of pop growth without changing its local nature provides the perverse incentive to go wider to develop even more centres of pop growth.
 
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Ffc

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The line of techs is currently:
View attachment 654316

The higher bonuses are tied to higher tiers of capital buildings, so resource gathering backwaters are less likely to reach maximized production levels than your heavily populated core worlds.
Those are really strong !
It makes materialist even stronger
 
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Deshiba

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Feels somewhat unfair.

Imagine a pop with +25% to mineral production and -10% upkeep (from traits/traditions/other). A seemingly equal increase/decrease of say 30%, is in reality a 24% increase in output (155%/125%) and a 33% increase in input (120%/90%).
What exactly is unfair about min-maxing your output and input trough traits/civics/tech/other? It's available to any empire and you give up something else to do so. Seems pretty fair to me.
 

Deshiba

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Reducing the speed of pop growth without changing its local nature provides the perverse incentive to go wider to develop even more centres of pop growth.
The speed of growth gets reduces the more pops an empire has because the "work" that needs to be done for 1 pop gets increased. I didn't catch anything implying that this growth speed reduction was a local thing.
 

nikkythegreat

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The line of techs is currently:

The higher bonuses are tied to higher tiers of capital buildings, so resource gathering backwaters are less likely to reach maximized production levels than your heavily populated core worlds.
Are you guys planning to change traditions as well? Cause currently they are too inferior compared to tech.
 
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Mímisbrunnr

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Feels somewhat unfair.

Imagine a pop with +25% to mineral production and -10% upkeep (from traits/traditions/other). A seemingly equal increase/decrease of say 30%, is in reality a 24% increase in output (155%/125%) and a 33% increase in input (120%/90%).
An interesting point. Perhaps the bonus to resources should be MORE than the increased job upkeep cost? That would also go along with the idea of "Efficiencies of Scale" from the 2nd tech in the line?

It could also help give tall play styles some more life again.

@Eladrin @Me_
 
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Olterin

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The line of techs is currently:
View attachment 654316

The higher bonuses are tied to higher tiers of capital buildings, so resource gathering backwaters are less likely to reach maximized production levels than your heavily populated core worlds.
How does this interact with habitat capitals? Does it mean habitats can only ever get the second-tier bonus, never the third? That's ... interesting, if so.
 
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Dark Meta

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Feels somewhat unfair.

Imagine a pop with +25% to mineral production and -10% upkeep (from traits/traditions/other). A seemingly equal increase/decrease of say 30%, is in reality a 24% increase in output (155%/125%) and a 33% increase in input (120%/90%).
Maybe its multiplicative... That'll be nice. You know to effectively compensate for the "missing" pop due to lower count, they produce more resources.
So multiplying whatever your current state after all buffs is with that number seems to be the reasonable thing to do.

If it is additve though, it is kinda meh, like you suggested.
 

Deshiba

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How does this interact with habitat capitals? Does it mean habitats can only ever get the second-tier bonus, never the third? That's ... interesting, if so.
Well for the purpose of buildings I think habitats skip the middle tier. Otherwise habitats couldn't build stuff like the Research Institute and Citadel of Faith, which they can. So that would mean the first and the last bonus apply?
 

Matt516

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I'm still confused as to what it means that Pops grow slower when there's more Pops in your empire... what's that simulating?
Logistic pop growth is a real formula used to simulate biological growth. Normally growth starts off very slow since the population is low, then it grows faster and faster until resources start to limit growth, at which point it slows down and sometimes even ends up going negative at times. In our experiments we've modified the curve somewhat so new colonies aren't incredibly slow to grow.
I understand using a logistic curve for planetary growth rate, that's dandy - what is the reasoning behind changing the amount of growth needed to produce a single pop based on the empire-wide population? That's the only aspect of the new system that doesn't quite "click" to me.
 
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DrFranknfurter

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By decoupling the building unlocks from population growth, it makes it much easier to “prebuild” a planet to varying degrees. It removes some of the tedium of waiting for that last pop to finish growing before a slot unlocks, as well as the negative experience that occurred when a critical pop moved or died right at the wrong time.
Combining this from Dev Diary #190 with this:
These experiments have reduced the end date pop count to somewhere around one half of the old numbers with the expected performance improvements.
I mentioned before the issues with keeping the old system of unlocks from population alongside automatic resettlement that can interfere with unlocks from population.

As building slots have been changed to no longer require pops and the total number of pops is going to be halved then all the other jobs and buildings that currently unlock from population count should either be changed to also being unlocked by infrastructure or have the pop-thresholds adjusted to fit the newly reduced pop numbers, specifically the following 18 buildings/features/traditions/designations that have not yet been mentioned:
Buildings:
Planetary Administration ≥10 pops
Habitat Central Control ≥10 Pops
Resort Capital-Complex ≥10 pops
Governor's Estates ≥10 pops
Administrative Array ≥10 pops
Planetary Capital ≥40 pops
Hive Nexus ≥40 pops
Planetary Processor ≥40 pops
System Capital-Complex ≥80 pops
Primary Nexus ≥80 pops

Features:
Subterranean Contact Zone +1 Subterranean Liaison Officer Job per 20 Pops
Cave Shroom Veins +1 Cave Cleaner Job per 20 pops
Spore Vents +1 Gas Plant Engineer Job per 20 pops
Portal Research Area +1 Dimensional Portal Researcher Job per 40 pops

Traditions:
Prosperity Finisher effect
+1 Merchant Job per 50 Pops
Tradition Swaps:
+1 Synapse Drone Job per 20 Pops
+1 Maintenance Drone Job per 20 Pops

Designations:
Resort world designation
+1 Clerk job per 2 Pops
Perhaps change colony capital requirements from ≥10/40/80 pops to one of the following:
Number of districts built (e.g. ≥4 districts built, or about 8 years of construction)
% of Total districts built ( ≥20% of districts built, making smaller worlds establish faster, currently small worlds have no advantages)
Time since colony founding (≥10 years since founding, reduced by Planet build speed modifiers - also prevents the mass resettlement exploit)

This allows people to prebuild and queue-up a series of districts, the colony capital upgrade and the buildings that will be unlocked after the upgrade takes place without having to wait for pops to grow or having the upgrade cancelled if automatic migration moves a pop off-world before the colony capital upgrade completes.

Make sure the colony upgrade is linked to the buildings that depend on it, so that cancelling the colony upgrade cancels subsequent buildings, and the colony upgrade cannot be moved lower in the build order than the buildings that are unlocked by the upgrade (or conversely the buildings cannot be moved higher in the build order than the colony upgrade).

And change the features to:
+1 Job per x Districts built OR
+1 Job per upgraded Building OR
+1 Job per Capital Level

This also turns these features from being passive benefits with no way to capitalize on (barring exploits like stacking livestock/domestic servants/purging pops to unlock more jobs) to being active player choices that requires building the planet appropriately to maximize the bonus. It also allows for a feature to grant a set maximum number of jobs that can be sub-divided into different options based on district or build choices.

Basic Examples of features swapped from per pop to per district/building
Subterranean Contact Zone
+1 Subterranean Liaison Officer Job per 3 Mining districts (need to liaise with the subterranean civilization concerning mining rights and sub-surface land ownership and development).

Cave Shroom Veins
+1 Cave Cleaner Job per 3 Agricultural AND Mining districts

Spore Vents
+1 Gas Plant Engineer Job per 3 Industrial districts OR
+1 Gas Plant Engineer Job per Refinery Building

Portal Research Area
+1 Dimensional Portal Researcher Job per Advanced Research Complex
Advanced Examples, with multiple choices to feature output
Subterranean Contact Zone
+1 Subterranean Liaison Officer Job per 3 Mining districts (need to liaise with the subterranean civilization concerning mining rights and sub-surface land ownership and development). OR
+1 Subterranean Tectonic Research Job per Advanced Research Complex/Research Institute/Planetary Supercomputer
+1 Subterranean Trader Job per Commerce Megaplex/Galactic Stock Exchange
+1 Subterranean Understanding Job per Tier 3 Unity building/Psi Corps/Ministry of Culture
+1 Subterranean Liaison Officer Job per Administrative Park

Inter-dimensional Portal:
Portal Research Area gives +1 Inter-Dimensional Researcher Job per Advanced Research Complex/Research Institute/Planetary Supercomputer
Portal Trade Area gives +1 Inter-Dimensional Trader Job per Commerce Megaplex/Galactic Stock Exchange
Portal Unity Centre gives +1 Inter-Dimensional Understanding Job per Tier 3 Unity building/Psi Corps/Ministry of Culture
Portal Administrative Exchange gives +1 Inter-Dimensional Bureaucrat Job per Administrative Park

The Advanced examples require more work to implement but has the advantages of scaling, added player choice and extra storytelling. You capture a portal planet and replace all the research buildings with temples to convert the races in the mirror universe, or a Megacorp takes control of the planet and invests heavily in inter-dimensional trade.
The disadvantage of the added complexity is that players would want their imagined scenario to be represented, like Joint Military Training provided by fortresses, Policing by Precinct Houses, Combined industry or advanced Slavery of Subterranean/Interdimensional subjects. (people would all buildings to have an extra job, subsequent job bloat making the job tab confusing to read at a glance).

So sadly this seems like too much work to implement, but it's interesting to imagine how it could work in the new system.

Lastly as mentioned by quite a few people, all the other unique resources, deposits and buildings could do with being made a bit more powerful while you're rebalancing the numbers across the board:

1. Poor Anomaly tech rewards.
Currently these provide small raw research with a ridiculously tiny cap, making anomalies an insignificant percentage of total research output.
2. Imbalanced Space resource values
Currently space resources equal to about 10% of planetary research output, while space minerals dominate output.
3. Weak Starbase buildings: Black Hole Observatory, Hydroponics Bay, Nebula Refinery, Curator Think Tank, Art College
Each of these provides less output than a single job when they should provide something fun, interesting or powerful considering their limited availability.
4. Insignificant Planetary Unique deposits
Rare resource deposits have a situational maximum value of less than 10 minerals each with a considerable opportunity cost, other unique deposits also have depressingly low value compared to standard buildings. These all need a healthy buff.

To see my own thoughts on Strategic Resources, their potential uses and how they could be part of something better look here:
 
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Verx90

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Except that this change doesn't actually mimic what's happening in the real world. In the real world, population growth slows down in areas with high standards of living, not necessarily higher population densities. Moreover, the decrease in population growth is localized to certain areas, not global. The changes to the game are equivalent to high population in Japan causing a decrease in the birth rate in Nigeria.
its a world scale , not a nation scale . on our world we are following that said S scale.

its obvious to think that we would follow such tendency on any new colony humanity could reach with the proper habitability .

and yes, it is a global tendency . ofc. the game talk about planets , not region of said planet.

but i'm all in for focusing planets and create all new planets meccanics of regions etc. but i can already hear the mass of ppl " we don't want more micro!!! ... THINK OF THE PERFORMANCE! "



Please show me the correlation between country population and growth rate: https://worldpopulationreview.com/#liveWorldPop

No, there is nothing in reality that ties growth rate decline to the existing total population under the banner of a nation, society, empire... What you are pointing to is the "S"-curve, whhich is fine.

As I fear you did not understand the issue: the described mechanic would increase pop creation cost (or decrease pop creation rate, however you want to look at it) with every additional existing pop in the empire. A consequence of this would be that a new colony within a big empire would grow extremely slowly because there are already so many pops in that empire. If the colony is granted independence, the growthrate would increase a lot, as there are now only very few people in that new empire.

Tying growth maluses to empire population is a nonsense mechanic that is only justifiable as a lazy "anti snowballing" mechanic.

the global population growh rate is declining as a planet scale, ofc there are countryes that have more pop growh than other for different reasons . but the game doesn't reflect those reasons .

world pop growh rate decline is more correlated to education level . you want it to be fixed on your tech level and number of non-basic jobs? i'm ok with that.

it even justify fallen empires for being so stagnatics.
 

Ffc

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I understand using a logistic curve for planetary growth rate, that's dandy - what is the reasoning behind changing the amount of growth needed to produce a single pop based on the empire-wide population? That's the only aspect of the new system that doesn't quite "click" to me.
I agree I don't really quite understand