Stellaris Dev Diary #179 - 4th Anniversary & 2.7 'Wells' Update

Stellaris Dev Diary #179 - 4th Anniversary & 2.7 'Wells' Update

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ASGeek2012

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View attachment 578123
Observe mode. AI don't know how to use robots !!!!
I think the problem lies not with the AI but the calculations for assigning pops to eligible job slots. I sometimes get unemployed robots because the only available positions are specialist jobs that the robots cannot take yet such as researchers or culture workers. I usually can solve this by taking some other specialist job, do a few clicks of deprioritizing the job, then reprioritize it. The robot pops then shuffle into the specialist position they can take, and the displaced bio pops go into the jobs that the robots could not take.

Seriously, drag-and-drop has been around for decades. PDX should consider using it.
 

klickor

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I think the problem lies not with the AI but the calculations for assigning pops to eligible job slots. I sometimes get unemployed robots because the only available positions are specialist jobs that the robots cannot take yet such as researchers or culture workers. I usually can solve this by taking some other specialist job, do a few clicks of deprioritizing the job, then reprioritize it. The robot pops then shuffle into the specialist position they can take, and the displaced bio pops go into the jobs that the robots could not take.

Seriously, drag-and-drop has been around for decades. PDX should consider using it.
In the photo there are no more jobs robots could do. Until droids they only work minerals and food.

The obvious solution is to make more mineral and agriculture districts than you actually need and just sell the surplus on the market until you get the tech for droids. Inefficient but still much better than having unemployed robots. Easy for a player to do but too complicated for the AI.
 

Ferrus Animus

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Sep 16, 2019
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I think the problem lies not with the AI but the calculations for assigning pops to eligible job slots. I sometimes get unemployed robots because the only available positions are specialist jobs that the robots cannot take yet such as researchers or culture workers. I usually can solve this by taking some other specialist job, do a few clicks of deprioritizing the job, then reprioritize it. The robot pops then shuffle into the specialist position they can take, and the displaced bio pops go into the jobs that the robots could not take.

Seriously, drag-and-drop has been around for decades. PDX should consider using it.
We had drag and drop in the old tile system.

Also to me it seems weird that the game still uses job-dependant weightings when it simply couls use the productivity bonus it claculates anyway...
 

SeekingEtermity

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We had drag and drop in the old tile system.

Also to me it seems weird that the game still uses job-dependant weightings when it simply couls use the productivity bonus it claculates anyway...
Automatic assignment based on job outputs looks like essentially just the Stable Marriage Problem - a well-known problem with an easy and performant solution - but it's not actually quite that easy. One major problem is the restrictions that some pops (slaves, various kinds of robot, etc.) have to only working certain jobs; SMP doesn't include that and it messes things up. Another problem is the instability of the value of a job; the jobs that produce amenities (for example) are very high value, right up until they're not. Solving the actual job assignment problem in Stellaris is much harder; I'm not sure it can be done in polynomial time. That's not to say it's inherently unsolvable - non-polynomial-time problems can still be fast, if the "n" is sufficiently small - but you don't want to run them often.

Now, with that said, it would be nice if the weights for jobs were tilted based on the expected output, rather than based on a completely independent system of hard-coded weight modifiers (which happens to roughly correlate with expected outputs). Stellaris is littered with minor bugs where, for example, somebody removes the engineering research from machine assembler jobs, but forgets to upgrade their weights, and your research-boosted pops rush to take those jobs even though they produce literally no resources (nothing at all that is modified by pop traits, in fact). In a better world, adjusting the job's outputs would automatically adjust the weights, and that job would obtain a curious position of "it is very high priority to fill this job, but you should use the worst pop you have for it because it doesn't produce anything dependent on the pop's characteristics".
 

Phoenix32

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I assume you just goofed the addition and then ran with it? 135 + 20 is 155, not 165. It's an effective 14.8% increase. Still better than an effective 10% increase, but definitely no 22%. That should have been obvious; how was an edict that added 20% growth supposed to increase growth by 22%?!? Even if you thought the bonus from the edict was multiplicative (it's not), 135 * 1.2 is 162, not 165.

Also, it's even worse than that. IP requires Xenophobe (+10% or +20% growth), so the minimum an IP empire could reliably have was in fact 165% of base... but a non-IP 'phobe could have 145%, and 165 is only 13.8% more than 145 but 155 (the new difference) is only 6.9% more.

Also, don't forget Nutritional Plenitude. It's harder to get early, now, but it used to give another 10%. This is also a nerf to hives; while they never had Encourage Growth (and thus are relatively stronger now that nobody does), they have a more powerful version of Nutritional Plenitude that they used to be able to use right off the bat to help them steal a lead on other empires in pop growth.
Yeah clearly my numbers were wrong.
 

Spaceception

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Will there be a DD next week? Or is it taking a bit longer than expected this week?
 

monkeypunch87

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Just pointing facts... nothing else... idk why you are mad...
As I said, I meant "(and all across Europe)" different and it is just additional information for the non-european here anyway. In Sweden, the holiday is today, that is the point. Don't care when the holiday is actually celebrated in each country or different in western or eastern Europe.

In Christianity, the Feast of the Ascension is celebrated on the 40th day of Easter, always a Thursday, anyway. ;)
 
Last edited:

charliex3

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As I said, I meant "(and all across Europe)" different and it is just additional information for the non-european anyway. In Sweden the holiday is today, that is the point. Don't care when the holiday is actually celebrated in each country or different in western or eastern Europe.
You know that PDX has remote employees outside Sweeden? So some of them might still be working even tho main office is closed because of public holiday.
 
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Me_

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Today is an official holiday in Sweden (and all across Europe): Ascension of Christ
Is that so? I've been here in Europe for decades already and haven't ever had this holiday yet.
 

monkeypunch87

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They could have written the DD on Wednesday so they just have to press "post" today, or even have a system that presses "post" for them.

We live in an age of advanced technological marvels
Apparantly not.

Is that so? I've been here in Europe for decades already and haven't ever had this holiday yet.
A Christian holiday is it nonetheless. Maybe not an official holiday in your country. In Sweden it is and that it what counts here for Stellaris. ;)
 
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AlanC9

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Automatic assignment based on job outputs looks like essentially just the Stable Marriage Problem - a well-known problem with an easy and performant solution - but it's not actually quite that easy. One major problem is the restrictions that some pops (slaves, various kinds of robot, etc.) have to only working certain jobs; SMP doesn't include that and it messes things up. Another problem is the instability of the value of a job; the jobs that produce amenities (for example) are very high value, right up until they're not. Solving the actual job assignment problem in Stellaris is much harder; I'm not sure it can be done in polynomial time. That's not to say it's inherently unsolvable - non-polynomial-time problems can still be fast, if the "n" is sufficiently small - but you don't want to run them often.

Now, with that said, it would be nice if the weights for jobs were tilted based on the expected output, rather than based on a completely independent system of hard-coded weight modifiers (which happens to roughly correlate with expected outputs). Stellaris is littered with minor bugs where, for example, somebody removes the engineering research from machine assembler jobs, but forgets to upgrade their weights, and your research-boosted pops rush to take those jobs even though they produce literally no resources (nothing at all that is modified by pop traits, in fact). In a better world, adjusting the job's outputs would automatically adjust the weights, and that job would obtain a curious position of "it is very high priority to fill this job, but you should use the worst pop you have for it because it doesn't produce anything dependent on the pop's characteristics".
It occurs to me that 'solving" isn't really how we should think about this. My impression is that in practice players have a fairly limited set of heuristics to manage their pops, which works well enough. Some of those could be bolted on top of the current system, couldn't they? I'd offer suggestions, but as someone who mostly plays Egalitarians precisely so he can avoid doing much pop management, my toolset isn't very large.
 

Franton

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Aug 9, 2019
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In the photo there are no more jobs robots could do. Until droids they only work minerals and food.

The obvious solution is to make more mineral and agriculture districts than you actually need and just sell the surplus on the market until you get the tech for droids. Inefficient but still much better than having unemployed robots. Easy for a player to do but too complicated for the AI.
That's what I usually do, but when you play at tech cost X 3 or higher, it takes so long to unlock droids, you eventually run out of mining/farming districts! This is the #1 reason why I never play the mechanist origin at high tech cost games!