Stellaris Dev Clash #1 - The Subsequent Generation

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PhroX

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Without wanting to spend too much time going off topic, it's worth noting that much of Stellaris is based on ideals and sci-fi tropes, not how things necessarily work out (or would work out) in practice - this applies to both the science and the social side of things. And, according to the ideas behind it, Communism is a highly egalitarian system - egalitarianism is fundamentally about how equal people in society are, and Marxism is very much about making everyone equal. Of course, the communist nations that we've seen in our history don't really live up to this, but that's not how Stellaris judges things.
 

yerm

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The problem here is that egalitarianism is the ethos that opposed authoritarianism, rather than some hypothetical individualism/autonomous ethos. Further, it seems to be implied as covering equality of either opportunity or outcome. So you end up with people trying to RP as a communist equity via state regulation space empire picking the same ethos as the libertarians.
 

GregoryTheGreat

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The problem here is that egalitarianism is the ethos that opposed authoritarianism, rather than some hypothetical individualism/autonomous ethos. Further, it seems to be implied as covering equality of either opportunity or outcome. So you end up with people trying to RP as a communist equity via state regulation space empire picking the same ethos as the libertarians.
I would say how this demonstrates that flavor-wise, the Ethics are highly mutable and are best interpreted in light of Civics, the empire's other Ethics, and player RP. Egalitarianism means something very different to a megacorp than it does a communist oligarchy or a liberal democracy, but they can all be said to be championing their own interpretation of it. In all three cases it justifiably provides similar game benefits, as people feel free to express themselves and self-actualize, thus giving Influence if the empire acts in accordance with their self-actualized desires, and allowing the population to achieve incredible happiness if the empire puts the resources at their disposal through Utopian Abundance. That self-actualization and abundance might come through unbounded free market economic efficiency allowing everyone to achieve their dreams, or through state-subsidies freeing everyone from their wants.
Similarly, Spirituality probably means vastly different things to different empires--one defines it in terms of adherence to their religious dogmas, while another could embrace spirituality in a broader philosophical sense through meditation and debate. Once again, they both gain the Unity benefits, but in one that's because everyone agrees in lock-step on what their empires means, while the other could relate to a more evolutionary joint understanding of how to proceed mutually arrived at through debate.
Xenophobia might be hatred and fear of anything different as a threat, a desire to subjugate all others, or simple snobbish dismissal of it as inferior and/or inconsequential.
Militarism could represent either a focus on survival through force, imperialist ambition, or actual love of combat. Pacifism could be morally based, the result of a rational utility calculus, or simple cowardice.
These are all just the interpretations from the top of my head. There are perhaps infinitely more.

In summary, all of them are highly open to interpretation, so saying that there's a single concrete definition of what type of society any given Ethic entails is missing the point.
 
Last edited:

rageair

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The Family is no stranger to what's going on in the galaxy - we've seen it all before! Our history was rife with nations who believed that 'their' way was the only path forwards, oppressing millions to reach their selfish goals. We're seeing the same thing now, and we know only one way to combat it - overwhelming force!

If the face of this threat we have decided to commission the grandest fleet ever seen! For trade to flourish, we must guarantee the safety of all the poor souls seeking refuge on Family planets. We provide what no one else will, safety.
The_Vetting_of_the_Fleet.png

Pictured is Donna Hosta inspecting the new custom ordered Enforcer-class Cruisers from her flagship, the 'Godmother', in the company of Grand Admiral Usauri.
 

Ancillary

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For trade to flourish, we must guarantee the safety of all the poor souls seeking refuge on Family planets. We provide what no one else will, safety.
I assume criminal megacorps get no advantage from crime on their own planets? Don't defecate where you masticate, and all that?
 

GAGA Extrem

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I can see that poor Terkadian envoy in the corner! :eek:
The Terkardian government has no Terkardian officials deployed on Family territory at this point in time.
 

rageair

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The Terkardian government has no Terkardian officials deployed on Family territory at this point in time.
I can attest to this. It was definitely the real Jargrim den Vatoris that returned after the first diplomatic mission, and not some sort of genetically engineered body-double! That's a... pet Toucan in the cage... that we purchased from the UNG, yes - that's it!
 

Wokeg

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Desist your salt-water excretions, mammalian friends, because another week chained to your government-enforced calendar means another edition of the Torch-Bearer beamed directly to your optical nerves.

SeriouslyIHateTheseSwine.png


Please note: the editorial staff will be happy to unsubscribe you from our revolutionary periodical, provided you demonstrate some actual social responsibility and THROW OFF THE SHACKLES OF STATIST OPPRESSION TODAY!
 

Lord Tataraus

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That actually brings up something odd abouy the shared burden civic .If it is the communsm civic why would it require egalitarian. Communisms very nature is a state enforced hive mind .

I've been trying to figure out why I've been thinking Groogys rp has been really off. It is odd for an egalitarian but it isnt odd for an authoritarian. However it isnt off for a communist. I hadn't thougjt about it being a collective will but that clicks in my mind. You cannot enforce shared burdens while at the same time champion free will.

In fact i need to look at the shared burdens living standard again. Does it attract pops to unemployment? If all strata are the same pops would naturally gravitate towards staying home playing omputer games over going to work in the mine. Unless work is mandated which isnt so much egalitarian as it is public sector slavery.
Communism is by definition a stateless society i.e. anarchy so totalitarian communism is impossible. Only Wokeg is playing a communist society, the others are various types of socialists.

Also suggesting shared burden style society leads to significant unemployment is based mostly propaganda. Real world examples disprove that assumption. Rather than derail this thread, I'd suggest looking into studies about universal basic income, Nordic socialism, and the Catalonian communes during the revolutionary era.
 

Slash111

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I'm not sure how reliably we can actually classify any of the empires in Stellaris as stateless outside of maybe the marauders and nomads given the actual mechanics of the game. That's not really even getting into the rabbit hole of what actually defines various ideologies, either...

...soooo, let's let that one lie. I will instead ramble about something somewhat related

The topic does bring up the interesting idea of RPing a stateless society, or at least something close to it. Personally, I've tried to make several empires in game which operate more like a group of fragmented independent states/groups and had a really good time with it. I like to think of my borders as less of a legal statement of ownership and more as the other empires taking note that "thar be crazy ass aliens here sometimes and they don't necessarily like us". Inevitably, the species tend to quarrelsome, deviant, and most importantly, nomadic, democratic crusaders. Main diplo goal of the empire is usually to open borders/get immigration access too.

It's sort of like: What if I took the faction system to it's logical extreme? What if every faction was attempting to obtain their stated goals, even those in conflict with one another, at the same time and by any means possible? Current setup doesn't really support this playstyle too well (and I don't expect it to), but you can get around it by rolling a dice to see which faction does something stupid next. It all builds from there. Only way I can possibly see it represented from what little I know of the new game setup is to add a feat which severely punishes you for having displeased factions or something, preferably with swarms of pirates.

So, main point. Playing anarchic, chaotic societies is fun and you all should try it. I'm hoping that some of the empires that are mostly composed of species with the quarrelsome/deviant traits really start to RP those aspects more, too.
 

Pizzicato

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Public Announcement:

Naming:
After our marketing horses conducted multiple stakeholder interviews we settled on Cyber Equestrian Collective.
Our pops, once we are able to rename them, will be known as the Cyber Ponies or short Cybronies.

Thank you all for your input. :)

Agreement with the 5th Interstellar:
To continue our good relations with members of the fifth Interstellar, we hereby announce to treat all workers equal to specialist, thus nullifying their former stratification.
We hope we can live in peace and prosperity with them.
 

GregoryTheGreat

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Peace and Prosperity is what the UNG was created to promote! Join us in a new era of intergalactic expansion
I'm loving the courting attempts of the Cyber Equestrians by the UNG (and I assume the Interstellar.) It seems to me that they could justifiably join either side--joining their fellow two technocracies in the UNG or continuing their anti-human blood feud by joining the Interstellar. Either side could swing the balance of power in the galactic south dramatically in their favor with successful recruitment, and the Equestrians would gain allies to deter Shrimpali aggression, but would slow their own expansion.
 

Wizzington

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Here's the basic stats, I'm going to try to get the additional stats things in tomorrow and post another more comprehensive version :)

####################
### STATS FOR MP ###
####################

Score
  1. Union of Supreme Synthetic Republics 10812
  2. Asphodel Anarchist Collective 8192
  3. Sozialistische Räterepublik 6976
  4. Cooperative Commune of Crustacean Planets 6787
  5. Obadin Republic 6348
  6. UNG 6311
  7. Cupitor Technocracy 5549
  8. PlatyCorp 5504
  9. Terkardian Utopia 5110
  10. Cyber Equestrian Collective 3433
  11. Aeternum 3080
  12. Holy Valtun Kingdom 2989
  13. Flaarghl Star Gazers 2811
  14. Dredge 2785
  15. The Family 2757
  16. Baatezu Empire 2529
  17. Termitoidae Collective 2477
  18. Church of Chains 2431
  19. Omni Codex 2387
  20. Beau'Psionian Brotherhood 2179
  21. Rephlex Inc. 2099
  22. Sacrosanct Shrimpali Council 1869
  23. The Way 1374
Economic Power
  1. Union of Supreme Synthetic Republics 4062
  2. Terkardian Utopia 2973
  3. Asphodel Anarchist Collective 2076
  4. Obadin Republic 1860
  5. Cyber Equestrian Collective 1683
  6. UNG 1635
  7. Sozialistische Räterepublik 1459
  8. The Family 1414
  9. Holy Valtun Kingdom 1373
  10. Aeternum 1362
  11. Cooperative Commune of Crustacean Planets 1345
  12. Flaarghl Star Gazers 1316
  13. PlatyCorp 1259
  14. Church of Chains 1240
  15. Cupitor Technocracy 1213
  16. Baatezu Empire 1155
  17. Rephlex Inc. 1111
  18. Dredge 1108
  19. Termitoidae Collective 1100
  20. Omni Codex 1093
  21. Beau'Psionian Brotherhood 1023
  22. Sacrosanct Shrimpali Council 870
  23. The Way 593
Fleet Power
  1. Termitoidae Collective 3972
  2. The Family 3739
  3. Church of Chains 3249
  4. Cooperative Commune of Crustacean Planets 2870
  5. Sozialistische Räterepublik 2816
  6. Asphodel Anarchist Collective 2582
  7. Sacrosanct Shrimpali Council 2532
  8. Aeternum 2307
  9. Dredge 2249
  10. Flaarghl Star Gazers 2210
  11. Beau'Psionian Brotherhood 2189
  12. Cupitor Technocracy 2153
  13. Cyber Equestrian Collective 1959
  14. Union of Supreme Synthetic Republics 1890
  15. Baatezu Empire 1864
  16. PlatyCorp 1857
  17. UNG 1741
  18. Rephlex Inc. 1648
  19. Obadin Republic 1181
  20. The Way 1180
  21. Terkardian Utopia 854
  22. Omni Codex 447
  23. Holy Valtun Kingdom 409
Technological Power
  1. Terkardian Utopia 4000
  2. Union of Supreme Synthetic Republics 3205
  3. UNG 2660
  4. Obadin Republic 2545
  5. Cupitor Technocracy 2265
  6. PlatyCorp 1975
  7. Cyber Equestrian Collective 1840
  8. Cooperative Commune of Crustacean Planets 1780
  9. Omni Codex 1775
  10. Dredge 1690
  11. Beau'Psionian Brotherhood 1690
  12. The Family 1675
  13. Aeternum 1645
  14. Flaarghl Star Gazers 1635
  15. Church of Chains 1460
  16. Baatezu Empire 1300
  17. The Way 1265
  18. Termitoidae Collective 1250
  19. Sozialistische Räterepublik 1240
  20. Asphodel Anarchist Collective 1170
  21. Sacrosanct Shrimpali Council 1100
  22. Rephlex Inc. 1035
  23. Holy Valtun Kingdom 1030