Stellaris: A Shift In Consumer Taste

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Duuk

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I'm saying, quiet openly, as I've said many times in this thread, that consumer threats of boycotts and complaints really aren't all that serious if the company keeps selling product.

Basically, no matter what the howling on the forum here or on Steam is Stellaris' sales numbers are and have always been strong. At the end of the day that is the only customer satisfaction rating that really matters. The rest is just King Canute and the Tide.
 

Sifer2

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I have been a gamer for over 3 decades. I can tell you gamers always expected the game to work properly on launch. But they also have always been extremely impatient, and want to play it straight away as early as possible. So for this reason it's the same as it's always been. A company can throw a popular game out and expect it to sell regardless. The only real change is that the Internet made it possible to actually fix games after they came out. Before that if it was broke it stayed broke unless there was a new version like a port. So more effort was spent fixing the bigger bugs before it came out just because the devs didn't want it to suck that bad forever. Now they have a more casual attitude towards it like "Eh let's release it over the Christmas holidays. Let the customer complain so we see easier what needs fixing".
 

208

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Are computer games more buggy today than they used to be? Hard to tell, frankly.

I do know a few things though, compared to games 30 years ago: improved programming tools make it far easier to avoid programming errors, like memory leaks; game designs are more complex, so errors in design and execution of the design, which are easier for the player notice than programming errors, are more common; and players are more savvy and more likely to recognize a bug for what it is.

So I don't know if there are more actual bugs than there used to be, but I'm sure players notice more bugs than they used to.
 

Athmet

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I'm saying, quiet openly, as I've said many times in this thread, that consumer threats of boycotts and complaints really aren't all that serious if the company keeps selling product.

Basically, no matter what the howling on the forum here or on Steam is Stellaris' sales numbers are and have always been strong. At the end of the day that is the only customer satisfaction rating that really matters. The rest is just King Canute and the Tide.

There is actually a PDX podcast that confirm your last paragraph. No amount of echo internet box of angry post lashing will make them forget numbers.
 

Duuk

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There is actually a PDX podcast that confirm your last paragraph. No amount of echo internet box of angry post lashing will make them forget numbers.
And rightly so. The howling on the forum is NOT the constituency that pays the bills. The sales numbers are what keeps the lights on in Paradox headquarters. If the sales numbers remain strong that means that the people that ACTUALLY buy the product are happy and content with Paradox' business model.

I posted a thread in the Paradox Development Studios general discussion forum saying it was time for them to go "full Blizzard" on the forum and not allow people to post that don't have the game in question registered because since the release of Megacorp I had noticed that quite a few of the screaming "omg the sky is falling Paradox you suck I hate you" threads were started by and/or piled on by people without any forum badges. That sounds super elitist and snobby but it has a certain ring of truth to it: Only the people that pay the bills have any bearing on what Paradox does or does not do, and (ironically) the people on the forum (like me) with 7000 badges are actually the people Paradox can kiss on the forehead and basically ignore or just say "hey guys it'll be ok" because here's a secret about internet rage: It's all fake.

It's manufactured. It isn't real. It's entitlement. It's the old Howard Stern rage. If you don't know what Howard Stern Rage is, it's a marketing study done when Howard Stern was first on the radio. He was the first "shock jock" and his radio station got backlash for him being on the air. So they did a study and found that the average Stern fan listened for 1 hour and 20 minutes. Most common reason: "to see what he would say next". The average Stern hater listened for 2 hours and 15 minutes. Most common reason: "to see what he would say next". So the haters were actually more profitable than the fans.

So people who scream loudly about how Paradox is the devil and they hate Paradox and OMG HOW COULD THEY SHIP SUCH BROKEN CRAP while having 10 or 12 forum badges are probably blowing smoke because, well, you've already spent $500 on Paradox games. You're probably going to pre-order the next game or DLC for your preferred game as soon as the trailer hits. So really you're just raging to rage. So just stop. Really.
 

Derp

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One thing to remember is that this is the channel through which we interact with Paradox. Think of a grocery store. If you have something to complain about, you complain to the cashier because that is the channel by which you interact with that store. Of course you know it's not the cashiers fault that your favourite cold cut has run out or that the shopping lines are way too long because there ain't enough cashiers. You are not complaining about the cashier but to the cashier and expect them to pass the complain to higher up or to whoever's responsibility the issue in question is.
as someone who works in a grocery store this is a really bad analogy, because a lot of customers will take out their petty little grievances on whichever underpaid and powerless employee they run across
 

danfarnsy

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So really you're just raging to rage. So just stop. Really.

Didn't you just finish saying that rage drives sales? I fully agree with your point, but I also think that this isn't the kind of game you can just do "casually," and that means there's little potential customer base aside from abstracting control freaks with insecure emotional lives. How else do you get so invested in something that, otherwise, means little? Rage isn't just a correlate with sales, it's a requirement.

Yeah, I know what I'm saying. Sigh.
 

Eelectrica

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I really wouldn't mind if the devs were able to take a bit of extra time put a more polished product. I think we all benefit if they do.
The game is a success, I'd like to think that should earn the devs a bit more time to correct some of the more game breaking issues and put out a more polished release. I'm sure the devs get as frustrated, perhaps even moreso than players.

Hope is there. Apparently the EU4 is taking the year to work on its next DLC and clear the backlog of issues they have.
CK2 devs took the year to release its new expansion and I thank that's paid off.
I don't know much about HOI - just not my thing, but it looks like they got more time to release their expansion as well.

As much as I'm looking forward to the diplomacy update, I wouldn't mind if it doesn't come in for about a year. In the meantime maybe one or two species packs could be done. Programmers can focus on bug fixing and the game still earns a few dollars.
 

~Robbie

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Honestly I would be fine if Paradox just labelled Stellaris DLC as "beta" or something during the first few months, because that would at least be fair to the consumer by letting them know they're paying for a product that may or may not work.

What irritates me with this latest patch is that they obviously must have known just how broken it was if even any QA was run, and there are indications in the code itself (the infamous #TODO segments commented out) that they knew full well that major parts of the game were not functioning, but did not disclose any of this to the consumer. That's obviously wrong. If you went to a restaurant and ordered a BLT but the menu failed to mention it was served on a burlap sack instead of on bread, you wouldn't be like "okay here take this back and put it on some bread in a month or two" and just be happy with it.

TLDR: Either start informing your customers when you know things are broken, or do not ship things broken. Charging people money for something you know doesn't work is wrong and should not be tolerated. At least if you put a disclaimer saying it's broken, the consumer can make an informed decision to roll the dice with their money.
 

Ryika

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A $30-40 game (even in 1990 a fairly standard price) 30 years ago would be inflation-adjusted an 80-100 dollar game today. If you could sell a STANDARD, non-AAA game at $100 retail the amount of bug-fixing and QA you could budget would be astronomical.
I think that's way too simplistic. The gaming industry has exploded in those 30 years, and the number of people who will buy any given game has increased quite drastically. Development costs have generally decreased, and the switch to online sales has decreased the costs for publishing.

Overall, I don't think the argument that inflation is to blame for bad Q&A really holds up.

But to be honest, I don't think Q&A is the important factor here anyway. It's more that there are three major factors at work when it comes to any update:
- Wanting to add certain features to the update
- Wanting to publish the update at a certain point in time
- Wanting to release it in a stable state

If it's not possible to achieve all of these goals, then something has to give. If we look at 2.2, it's pretty clear that just cutting some features to make more time for other features wasn't really possible, as the economy is one big entity that needs all parts to be there. I can also easily see it being a much bigger project than they initially thought, because such a major change to a core system probably causes a lot of problems that weren't obvious at first - which might have increased the overall work they had to do by quite a bit, possibly much more than they had planned for.

Postponing the release was probably also not an option from their perspective, because the Christmas sales are huge. I assume they have the numbers and know whether they have to meet that deadline or not.

So really, it's possible that all that could give from their perspective is the stability of the release. Q&A wouldn't have helped with that, because the bottleneck here isn't finding all the tiny bugs that only become obvious through extensive testing, the bottleneck are the programmers. Because even if you have extra people in the company that could be added to the project, a lot of things just can't be worked on by multiple people at once.

So in conclusion, I think what lead to the release state of 2.2 is that the ambitions were set above what was reasonably doable in the time that they had, and potentially that they underestimated the scope of the changes they were making.

Sure. But initial realize ON AVERAGE was of better quality. Not always.
I think the phenomenon at work here is called "survivor bias". The games that have managed to become part of the cultural narrative are the most polished, most enjoyable games that were released back then, while all the crap that was released inbetween has been lost to the ages. I mean, the video game crash was partially caused by the flood of low-quality games that made consumers unwilling to put their money on the table, and Nintendo's Seal of Quality was ultimately born as a result of it.

In contrast, some of the most polished games of all times have been released in the last few years, despite the fact that games are larger than they've ever been. It's true that there are some companies that have built a business-model around releasing half-finished game after half-finished game, but that's in no way the state of gaming as a whole.
 

Duuk

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Didn't you just finish saying that rage drives sales? I fully agree with your point, but I also think that this isn't the kind of game you can just do "casually," and that means there's little potential customer base aside from abstracting control freaks with insecure emotional lives. How else do you get so invested in something that, otherwise, means little? Rage isn't just a correlate with sales, it's a requirement.

Yeah, I know what I'm saying. Sigh.
Yeeeaaaah. You're wrong. Plenty of people play this game VERY casually. Which is why plenty of people say they had no idea the game stutters. Quite a lot of us never play on maps larger than small because we sit down, create a new race every time we play, generate a small or even tiny galaxy, fill it with 6 or 8 AI, and play on our day off until we get bored and literally never go back to the save game ever again.

Fun fact: I've owned CK2 since release and have yet to ever complete a grand campaign. That game is like 7 or 8 years old at this point. I think you'd be surprised to discover just how few "hardcore" gamers Paradox games actually have. PLENTY of people casually play them.

Edit: And before someone says, "WELL THAT'S YOUR OPINION MAN!" I'd like to point out the fact that the game has pretty decent "People playing the game" stats over the holiday while this forum has been blowing up with people screaming "LITERALLY UNPLAYABLE". The stats back me up, not the ragers.

It's kind of like the Civ 6 achievement statistics that show that only something like 8% of the people that own the game have ever actually achieved a victory on ANY difficulty level, including Chieftain. The hardcore, grognard, "I REQUIRE AN EXPANSION FOR $80 THAT JUST MAKES A HARDMODE AI!" people are an insignificant part of the community. Blizzard knew that for WoW a long, long time ago. Paradox seems to have figured it out, too.
 

Athmet

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Yeeeaaaah. You're wrong. Plenty of people play this game VERY casually. Which is why plenty of people say they had no idea the game stutters. Quite a lot of us never play on maps larger than small because we sit down, create a new race every time we play, generate a small or even tiny galaxy, fill it with 6 or 8 AI, and play on our day off until we get bored and literally never go back to the save game ever again.

Fun fact: I've owned CK2 since release and have yet to ever complete a grand campaign. That game is like 7 or 8 years old at this point. I think you'd be surprised to discover just how few "hardcore" gamers Paradox games actually have. PLENTY of people casually play them.

Edit: And before someone says, "WELL THAT'S YOUR OPINION MAN!" I'd like to point out the fact that the game has pretty decent "People playing the game" stats over the holiday while this forum has been blowing up with people screaming "LITERALLY UNPLAYABLE". The stats back me up, not the ragers.

It's kind of like the Civ 6 achievement statistics that show that only something like 8% of the people that own the game have ever actually achieved a victory on ANY difficulty level, including Chieftain. The hardcore, grognard, "I REQUIRE AN EXPANSION FOR $80 THAT JUST MAKES A HARDMODE AI!" people are an insignificant part of the community. Blizzard knew that for WoW a long, long time ago. Paradox seems to have figured it out, too.

To be honest, I am so curious about the data PDX has on the game and its players. We can only see the 20k avg players for the whole December month but what you are describing would have been gathered by PDX as data.

That might be one of the discrepancy between PDX and some players here: the later believe everyone has exactly the same issue (even though you can clearly see the jump from 8k to 20k avg player after 2.2 release) while PDX might see things differently with the data they have.

Does it make ok to release a product without alerting about the bugs ? - not it is not. They are certainly playing on the "I know paradox" from "old" players but as we can see here, there is a limit.

In any case, let's see how they handle the next few weeks and next patch. Or we can keep raging, just because :)
 

permeakra

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I think the phenomenon at work here is called "survivor bias".
*rolling eyes* And I think that assumption is preposterous. So what?

Some changes in developer culture and methodologies definitely occurred. In particular, there is a shift from a-priory testing and dedicated design phase to ongoing flexible adoption and bug-fixing, at least in some areas I have direct information about. The changes in game distribution from offline to online model favors the same shift in game industry. IDK, maybe the game industry indeed shifts according to common trends?
 
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Sayakus

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Gamers were betrayed too many times by too many greedy companies with unfinished cash grabs. So in general gaming community is pissed at industry as whole.
 

VerKer

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The "we are back" dev thread being closed 2 days later says it all. Maybe less forum censorship and more effort in pre release testing would do PDX good at this point. If they continue like over the past weeks / months we might as well have every thread closed on these forums, and frankly given the current state of the game less and less people will care. How this turns into sales or into a positive, long term business plan is beyond me.
 

Beardy-Bard

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Gamers were betrayed too many times by too many greedy companies with unfinished cash grabs. So in general gaming community is pissed at industry as whole.
Exactly and if you look at big companies like Blizz or EA there market value dropped like crazy when you look at there last 5 years you dont realy see such a big downfall.
So till now Duuk maybe right, now they are angry and in half a year they buy the new DLC anyway.
But as it seems there comes a change of thought
 

FiddleSticks96

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In my opinion consumers tastes have been changing from purchasing a game that will "work as intended, eventually" to an expectation of "works as intended, at launch."

For the record, my "taste," my expectation, always has and always will be that the product I just bought works as intended, immediately, without additional aid.
 

Strigoi Tyrannus

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as someone who works in a grocery store this is a really bad analogy, because a lot of customers will take out their petty little grievances on whichever underpaid and powerless employee they run across
Of course it matters how the complaint is presented. If they blame you as a person it is wrong. But if they tell you that there is issue X in the store I don't see anything wrong in it.
 

TheAtreides84

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I have been playing and promoting Stellaris since launch and I can honestly say that since 2018 there has been a fundamental shift in consumer attitude towards the game as a whole.

In my opinion consumers tastes have been changing from purchasing a game that will "work as intended, eventually" to an expectation of "works as intended, at launch"

There is no point of pointing fingers at the developers OR the poor Q&A department about the state of 2.2 because this attitude is at the corporate level and dictated down to its employees.

I say again. The developers and Q&A probably agree with MANY of the frustrations coming from the community at the moment.

This thread is one where we can let paradox know that our expectations as consumers are changing and that should be reflected in the product that they offer.

Games *should* work as intended at launch. It's not a matter of consumer tastes, it's just basic fairness. If I buy a thing I expect it to work now, not the next year.

Now, we all know that PDX customers are almost always in for a bumpy ride. Partly because of the objective complexity of the genre, partly because the company QA isn't great. We kinda accept that with a smile, but it's not right by any stretch of imagination. It's like your clumsy friend always breaking something at your place, and then paying for dinner to compensate. He means good and he's still your friend, but the situation is annoying as hell.
 
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