Stellaris - [3.4.3] Armor Regeneration ist too fast

[Lazerus Artificial]

Description
[3.4.3] Armor Regeneration ist too fast

Game Version
3.4.3

What version do you use?
Steam

What expansions do you have installed?


Do you have mods enabled?
Yes

Please explain your issue is in as much detail as possible.
It was mentioned a few times before, and is also in the Know Issues List.

Regen bug kind of out off control. :: Stellaris General Discussions

I just went and tried to fight off those Angry Asteroids that can spawn in a system, the ones that only shoot out small strike craft and have 1k power each, and my fleet of nearly 8k could not kill them because they were regeneration so fast. I managed in the end only to kill one before I...

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[Unofficial] 3.4.5 'Cepheus' Known Issues / Community-maintained bug list - last updated July 19

Similar to how I did for 3.3, I'm creating this thread as a catalogue of bugs and exploits present in the current 3.4.2 3.4.3 'Cepheus' release of Stellaris. I will attempt to keep this updated for a while as bugs are discovered and/or fixed...

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Here is a Video that shows it in action. Yes it is modded, but that doesnt matter. It happens with and without mods.

This Video shows how insanely fast the regeneration is.

From what i can tell looking through the Files, the hive_asteroid shouldnt even have Armor Regeneration.

Steps to reproduce the issue.
Attack something with Armor

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File(s) attached



EDITS:
- Regen is not "too fast", it ticks exactly as it should with 1% per day.
- Scaling is a bit out of the line since 3.3 where it went percentual. High-Armor or High-Health Enemies received a massive buff from it. BUT ...
- ... in 3.3 regeneration was stopped in combat by receiving hits. This is no longer the case in 3.4.
So THIS seems to be the problem then. After-Combat regen seems perfectly fine on a percentual basis. But it shouldnt run in-combat with that strength.
In Combat it could have a different, much weaker value instead.

 

[SirBlackAxe]

The asteroids do have Regenerative Hull Tissue, which should be restoring 110 armor per day. Dividing your fleet's total damage output over the three months of the battle gives 15285/90 ~= 170 armor regen per day, which is approximately 50% higher than it should be.

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

The asteroids do have Regenerative Hull Tissue, which should be restoring 110 armor per day. Dividing your fleet's total damage output over the three months of the battle gives 15285/90 ~= 170 armor regen per day, which is approximately 50% higher than it should be.

Ah, you are right

ship_design = {
    name = "NAME_Hive_Asteroid"
    ship_size = hive_asteroid
    hide_size = yes
    section = {
        template = "HIVE_ASTEROID"
        slot = "mid"

        component = {
            slot = "STRIKE_CRAFT_01"
            template = "HIVE_STRIKE_CRAFT"
        }
        component = {
            slot = "STRIKE_CRAFT_02"
            template = "HIVE_STRIKE_CRAFT"
        }
        component = {
            slot = "STRIKE_CRAFT_03"
            template = "HIVE_STRIKE_CRAFT"
        }
        component = {
            slot = "AUX_UTILITY_1"
            template = "AUTO_REPAIR"
        }
    }
    required_component="SENSOR_1"
}

There we have it.
As you said, its "Regenerative Hull Tissue" with 0.5% Hull Regen and 1% Armor Regen

Also, good catch with the numbers. I did deal more damage than it could regenerate though.
After 90 days i shot it down from 11047 to 4773.
At that time i had 16172 damage dealt. Due to the regeneration i only dealt 6274 damage though.
This means it regenerated 9853 damage. In around 90 days that results in 110 per day, which matches what it should have.

So it seems like atleast that part is working, but the 1% Armor per day is just totally imbalanced

I think an easy temporary fix would be setting that part to 0.1% Armor Regen or so.

 

[darkestkhan]

Ah, you are right

ship_design = {
    name = "NAME_Hive_Asteroid"
    ship_size = hive_asteroid
    hide_size = yes
    section = {
        template = "HIVE_ASTEROID"
        slot = "mid"

        component = {
            slot = "STRIKE_CRAFT_01"
            template = "HIVE_STRIKE_CRAFT"
        }
        component = {
            slot = "STRIKE_CRAFT_02"
            template = "HIVE_STRIKE_CRAFT"
        }
        component = {
            slot = "STRIKE_CRAFT_03"
            template = "HIVE_STRIKE_CRAFT"
        }
        component = {
            slot = "AUX_UTILITY_1"
            template = "AUTO_REPAIR"
        }
    }
    required_component="SENSOR_1"
}

There we have it.
As you said, its "Regenerative Hull Tissue" with 0.5% Hull Regen and 1% Armor Regen

Also, good catch with the numbers. I did deal more damage than it could regenerate though.
After 90 days i shot it down from 11047 to 4773.
At that time i had 16172 damage dealt. Due to the regeneration i only dealt 6274 damage though.
This means it regenerated 9853 damage. In around 90 days that results in 110 per day, which matches what it should have.

So it seems like atleast that part is working, but the 1% Armor per day is just totally imbalanced

I think an easy temporary fix would be setting that part to 0.1% Armor Regen or so.

Setting regenerating hull tissue effect to 0.1% armor regen would make it worthless.

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

Setting regenerating hull tissue effect to 0.1% armor regen would make it worthless.

Thats why i said "temporary fix" until the Devs can fix that with something better.
Another one that would require more work would require a completely new Module and overwrite of all Spaceborn Aliens and Stations that use it.

But until then there is not much we can do. I gladly sacrifice a bit of regeneration if it means that i can actually defeat the 1k Fleet at my Doorstep again.

Regeneration is the one thing we cant counter.
We can easily counter Shields and Armor with Missiles and Disruptors. But we cant disable regeneration.
If i could wish for something, i would wish for disruptors applying a debuff that stops regen.

 

[darkestkhan]

Thats why i said "temporary fix" until the Devs can fix that with something better.
Another one that would require more work would require a completely new Module and overwrite of all Spaceborn Aliens and Stations that use it.

But until then there is not much we can do. I gladly sacrifice a bit of regeneration if it means that i can actually defeat the 1k Fleet at my Doorstep again.

Regeneration is the one thing we cant counter.
We can easily counter Shields and Armor with Missiles and Disruptors. But we cant disable regeneration.
If i could wish for something, i would wish for disruptors applying a debuff that stops regen.

You can counter regeneration: bring more guns. Or alpha strike it. Your problem here is that you are not doing enough DPS. The thing about regeneration is that it is actually quite weak - outside of cases were hostiles bring not enough dps all it does is make sure that ships can stay running w/o a need for break. Also regen comes at a price: you put in hull tissue and you won't have extra chance to hit. Which lowers your dps.

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

You can counter regeneration: bring more guns. Or alpha strike it. Your problem here is that you are not doing enough DPS. The thing about regeneration is that it is actually quite weak - outside of cases were hostiles bring not enough dps all it does is make sure that ships can stay running w/o a need for break. Also regen comes at a price: you put in hull tissue and you won't have extra chance to hit. Which lowers your dps.

The problem is, that it screws up balance.
If a 1k Enemy can tank 8k and more in Firepower (while using the best damage you can have against it), it is clearly not working as intended. You cant counter regeneration like you can counter Shields with Kinetics or Missiles, Armor with Lasers and Plasma, Evasion with Tracking, Strikecraft and Missiles with Point Defense.
These are actual counters where you can defeat a much stronger Enemy with a weaker Fleet.
Its easily possible to defeat a 24k Void Cloud with a 10k Fleet if you use Missiles and bypass its Shield.

Overpowering regeneration just by bringing ten times the size shown is not a counter.
Regeneration is the counter in that case. The counter to everything you can bring. You cant stop the regeneration, you cant bypass it, you can only overpower it.

The Enemy is using strong Shields and you have Lasers? The Shields are the counter to your Laser as his weaker Fleet is now stronger against yours.
You refit to kinetics? Now your Weapons are the counter to the Shields and the Enemy has to use another counter, Armor.
But regen? Nope. Regen is a hard-counter to everything without having a way to counter it.

Regen works fine on OUR Ships. It is only broken on Spaceborn Aliens since they have massive Health and Armor.
Thats the problem with percentual Values. 1% of 100 isnt much. 1% of 100.000 is.

 

[darkestkhan]

The problem is, that it screws up balance.
If a 1k Enemy can tank 8k and more in Firepower (while using the best damage you can have against it), it is clearly not working as intended. You cant counter regeneration like you can counter Shields with Kinetics or Missiles, Armor with Lasers and Plasma, Evasion with Tracking, Strikecraft and Missiles with Point Defense.
These are actual counters where you can defeat a much stronger Enemy with a weaker Fleet.
Its easily possible to defeat a 24k Void Cloud with a 10k Fleet if you use Missiles and bypass its Shield.

Overpowering regeneration just by bringing ten times the size shown is not a counter.
Regeneration is the counter in that case. The counter to everything you can bring. You cant stop the regeneration, you cant bypass it, you can only overpower it.

The Enemy is using strong Shields and you have Lasers? The Shields are the counter to your Laser as his weaker Fleet is now stronger against yours.
You refit to kinetics? Now your Weapons are the counter to the Shields and the Enemy has to use another counter, Armor.
But regen? Nope. Regen is a hard-counter to everything without having a way to counter it.

Regen works fine on OUR Ships. It is only broken on Spaceborn Aliens since they have massive Health and Armor.
Thats the problem with percentual Values. 1% of 100 isnt much. 1% of 100.000 is.

But you didn't bring 8K to deal with 1K. From that video what I see is 1K vs 1K. Obviously you brought equal firepower and w/o regen the fight could have gone either way. 1K enemy can't tank 8K fleet unless all of that 1K is in hull/armor, it has source of repair AND most of that 8K is in tank as well.

Equal firepower is precisely where repair is extremely powerful.

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

But you didn't bring 8K to deal with 1K. From that video what I see is 1K vs 1K. Obviously you brought equal firepower and w/o regen the fight could have gone either way. 1K enemy can't tank 8K fleet unless all of that 1K is in hull/armor, it has source of repair AND most of that 8K is in tank as well.

Equal firepower is precisely where repair is extremely powerful.

Maybe you could click on the other reports that i have linked?

Not to mention that this video is only ONE example. I tried with different setups. I tried with a 3k fleet with full Lasers, i tried with long range Missiles, i tried with the event swarm carrier.

Even after modding it down to 0.1% it took a 2k Fleet equipped with full plasma to bring it down.

We had this topic for days now because there were several reports about "armor is regenerating too fast". This video just shows it in action, and later one calculated that it is working as per design.
But this does not make it balanced.

A 1k Fleet VS a 1k Fleet should have equal chances, down to "who has the better counter". I brought Plasma, the best counter against Armor and Hull, and i still lost with three times the fleet size, because of ONE Aux-Module that has no counter.

 

[darkestkhan]

Maybe you could click on the other reports that i have linked?

Not to mention that this video is only ONE example. I tried with different setups. I tried with a 3k fleet with full Lasers, i tried with long range Missiles, i tried with the event swarm carrier.

Even after modding it down to 0.1% it took a 2k Fleet equipped with full plasma to bring it down.

It is as designed. It is said in one of those reports. Problem is with massive hull and armor values.

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

It is as designed. It is said in one of those reports. Problem is with massive hull and armor values.

Yes. The Module is working. But it is imbalanced on Units with blown up values. Those Asteroids clearly dont have 1k Fleet Power. Same goes for all the other Spaceborn Aliens that use this Module.

They need a balance pass to bring them back in line.
If we could counter it with a Weapon and equal fleet size, then it would be balanced.
If you like it the way it is, fine. But others dont enjoy it and even thought it is a bug.

 

[DrFranknfurter]

I don't understand all the arguments trying to dismiss bugs, there's clearly two serious issues:
1. Regen is very high on monsters with high base HP and Armour when in old patches they just had +1 HP/day and +2 Armour/Day regen per module (look at the wiki from before 23rd Feb 2022 when it was the old values, this change is quite recent.)
2. The new +110 Armour/day Regen rate isn't factored into the combat power calculation, making monsters much stronger than they once were and they still appear in the combat calculations.

I'd just give big monsters a different module with a more reasonable, smaller flat regen rate, capped at a lower value like +10/day not +110/day.
OR, if monsters are supposed to be much stronger. Then update the combat power calculation to factor in regen rate.

That way you don't think it's going to be a close fight and lose with the enemy at full health because the displayed power doesn't factor in regen. I know before the change to a % bonus, a flat +2 regen took years to do anything on large ships like battleships or bigger. Regnerative tissue components used to only be barely useful outside of battle as a way to slowly repair without a starbase, and thematically useful for monsters to heal naturally as they can't dock at a starbase.

It needed a buff. But now it's a bit overpowered on big ships, but the combat power calculation hides how OP it is.

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

It is as designed. It is said in one of those reports. Problem is with massive hull and armor values.

Also, technically the problem is not with massive hull and armor values.
The problem is with percentual scaling. If it would have a fixed amount of regeneration, or a cap at some point, it would be fine. But since those units have such a huge pool of armor and health, this percentual regeneration simply breaks.

The Armor and Hull is not the problem. We have Lasers and Plasma for that, as i said. But we cant counter regeneration other than by bringing a massive amout of overkill. And then the Fleet Power is not correctly calculated.

I don't understand all the arguments trying to dismiss bugs, there's clearly two serious issues:
1. Regen is very high on monsters with high base HP and Armour when in old patches they just had +1 HP/day and +2 Armour/Day regen per module (look at the wiki from before 23rd Feb 2022 when it was the old values, this change is quite recent.)
2. The new +110 Armour/day Regen rate isn't factored into the combat power calculation, making monsters much stronger than they once were and they still appear in the combat calculations.

I'd just give big monsters a different module with a more reasonable, smaller flat regen rate, capped at a lower value like +10/day not +110/day.
OR, if monsters are supposed to be much stronger. Then update the combat power calculation to factor in regen rate.

That way you don't think it's going to be a close fight and lose with the enemy at full health because the displayed power doesn't factor in regen. I know before the change to a % bonus, a flat +2 regen took years to do anything on large ships like battleships or bigger. Regnerative tissue components used to only be barely useful outside of battle as a way to slowly repair without a starbase, and thematically useful for monsters to heal naturally as they can't dock at a starbase.

It needed a buff. But now it's a bit overpowered on big ships, but the combat power calculation hides how OP it is.

Thats exactly the thing. The current Module is just broken on them. it is perfectly fine on our Ships.
Thats why i said, that a temporary fix would be a nerf to the Module. I did it in my Game and it works fine. Yes it makes my own Ships weaker, but so are everyone elses. The main impact is Spaceborn Aliens.
For a real fix they need another look, a new module, a cap for regeneration, something like that.

 

[darkestkhan]

Also, technically the problem is not with massive hull and armor values.

The problem is with percentual scaling. If it would have a fixed amount of regeneration, or a cap at some point, it would be fine. But since those units have such a huge pool of armor and health, this percentual regeneration simply breaks.

The Armor and Hull is not the problem. We have Lasers and Plasma for that, as i said. But we cant counter regeneration other than by bringing a massive amout of overkill. And then the Fleet Power is not correctly calculated.


Thats exactly the thing. The current Module is just broken on them. it is perfectly fine on our Ships.
Thats why i said, that a temporary fix would be a nerf to the Module. I did it in my Game and it works fine. Yes it makes my own Ships weaker, but so are everyone elses. The main impact is Spaceborn Aliens.
For a real fix they need another look, a new module, a cap for regeneration, something like that.
------------------------ forum broke on me here so broken quoting happened

Amount of regeneration is fixed though. It is a % of whatever your hull is. Not like there is any reason to use armor (infinite scaling is great, but dragonscale is expensive enough to double price of BS compared to just hull tanking; not to mention with how stupidly strong arc emitters and cloud lighting are... sheer inefficiency of high tech armor is probably a bug of its own)

Also I say no to temporary fixes that stay in for next few years or decades. It has to be done properly.

I don't understand all the arguments trying to dismiss bugs, there's clearly two serious issues:
1. Regen is very high on monsters with high base HP and Armour when in old patches they just had +1 HP/day and +2 Armour/Day regen per module (look at the wiki from before 23rd Feb 2022 when it was the old values, this change is quite recent.)
2. The new +110 Armour/day Regen rate isn't factored into the combat power calculation, making monsters much stronger than they once were and they still appear in the combat calculations.

I'd just give big monsters a different module with a more reasonable, smaller flat regen rate, capped at a lower value like +10/day not +110/day.
OR, if monsters are supposed to be much stronger. Then update the combat power calculation to factor in regen rate.

That way you don't think it's going to be a close fight and lose with the enemy at full health because the displayed power doesn't factor in regen. I know before the change to a % bonus, a flat +2 regen took years to do anything on large ships like battleships or bigger. Regnerative tissue components used to only be barely useful outside of battle as a way to slowly repair without a starbase, and thematically useful for monsters to heal naturally as they can't dock at a starbase.

It needed a buff. But now it's a bit overpowered on big ships, but the combat power calculation hides how OP it is.

It is useful right now. Wouldn't call it overpowered. Flat regen is pointless on A modules, as you would be getting exactly same value on corvette as on battleship - leading to either module being weak to the point of being useless, or strong to the point of being op, but never balanced. With the amount of DPS flying at later stages of the game all regen becomes useless in combat - it turns into alpha strike competitions. Generally speaking entire combat needs overhaul - the moment you get spinal mounted weapons is the moment battleships are the only useful thing (though I did hear some use destroyers for soaking of initial alpha). After all you can cover corvette weakness through hangar cores... AND STILL use spinal mount. Another module that is problematic is the shield capacitor. Great on paper, in practice skip shield weapons turn it useless.

It is true though that regen not being taken into account of fleet power gives false perception (extreme case: devouring swarm + nanite repair bots components + admiral trait + titan aura = a lot of fleet power that is totally invisible).

There may be a need for capping max % repair value - not sure how high you can get, but any value above 10% is definitively bonkers. And even 5% HP / day sounds too strong.

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

Amount of regeneration is fixed though. It is a % of whatever your hull is.

Which...doesnt make it fixed.
Fixed would be a flat 10 regen per day on any ship. Percentual based on X is not fixed.

Also I say no to temporary fixes that stay in for next few years or decades. It has to be done properly.

Still better than having an unfun and completely broken combat system for years.
But yes, it needs to be done properly. Modders can apply a temp-fix, i did allready, but thats nothing that we should keep forever.

It is useful right now. Wouldn't call it overpowered. Flat regen is pointless on A modules, as you would be getting exactly same value on corvette as on battleship - leading to either module being weak to the point of being useless, or strong to the point of being op, but never balanced. With the amount of DPS flying at later stages of the game all regen becomes useless in combat - it turns into alpha strike competitions. Generally speaking entire combat needs overhaul - the moment you get spinal mounted weapons is the moment battleships are the only useful thing (though I did hear some use destroyers for soaking of initial alpha). After all you can cover corvette weakness through hangar cores... AND STILL use spinal mount. Another module that is problematic is the shield capacitor. Great on paper, in practice skip shield weapons turn it useless.

It is true though that regen not being taken into account of fleet power gives false perception (extreme case: devouring swarm + nanite repair bots components + admiral trait + titan aura = a lot of fleet power that is totally invisible).

There may be a need for capping max % repair value - not sure how high you can get, but any value above 10% is definitively bonkers. And even 5% HP / day sounds too strong.

even better could be a "tiered scaling". So basically like S M and L weapons work already, but for the Ship-Sizes. That way the Modules could be balanced seperately without making one too strong and one too weak.
Also: im only talking about Spaceborn Enemies. Not our or AI Ships. It works fine for us. We cant reach the values that even a Hive-Asteroid at 1k can.

And yeah, those Spinal Weapons are one of the reasons why i modded my Missiles. My Missiles have 150 (Swarm), 175 (Missile) and 200 (Torpedo) Range now. Missile and Torp have doubled damage but halved RoF. I also added Missile-Sections on each Ship.
So i can actually build a Corvette-Swarm with Missiles that can snipe Battleships, if they dont bring PD.

There are many modules and weapons that could need a balance pass.

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

So i just learned that in 3.3 (a Version which i didnt play) the regeneration was stopped by getting hit?
But in 3.4 it no longer does. So...it seems like this is actually the problem then? Not the module or percentual regen but the fact that regen runs during active combat.

Suggestion:
In-Combat regeneration on a percentual basis is too much. But out of combat it is fine.
So instead of nerfing it or turning it back to what it was, meaning that regen has no effect in combat at all, it could be interesting if these modules would have a seperate stat for "in combat" and "out of combat".
OOC would be 1% / 0.5% as it is now
IC would be a much weaker version of it, either as a fixed value or a much lower percentage

 

[BaBoFantasy]

So i just learned that in 3.3 (a Version which i didnt play) the regeneration was stopped by getting hit?
But in 3.4 it no longer does. So...it seems like this is actually the problem then? Not the module or percentual regen but the fact that regen runs during active combat.

Suggestion:
In-Combat regeneration on a percentual basis is too much. But out of combat it is fine.
So instead of nerfing it or turning it back to what it was, meaning that regen has no effect in combat at all, it could be interesting if these modules would have a seperate stat for "in combat" and "out of combat".
OOC would be 1% / 0.5% as it is now
IC would be a much weaker version of it, either as a fixed value or a much lower percentage

In Stellaris 3.3, I made some test for new Regenerative Hull Tissue, and find out that.
When the ship get hit, the regeneration stops for a little time, but it goes on when the ship not get hit, even during the battle.

BTW, there is totally another problem that hull regenerate for even disengaged - ships run away with flag - ships.
You can see that from my GIF, the ship in the top of the list is already disengaged, but it still regenerate hull (not for armor) and gets full hull point again at the end of the battle.
This makes difference, because after the battle ends and calculate the death and survival of the disengaged ships, their remaining hull is crucial.

3. The shock of the emergency retreat causes each ship to have a 10% chance to take 20% hull damage. If a ship would be destroyed by this, it has a 50% chance to survive at 1HP instead.

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