Stellaris 3.0.3 Open Beta Announcement

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Madzai

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Your suggestions would destroy commerce basec play styles.
The solution is just to increase Clerk job output while balancing requirements for it. Maybe even make it depend on Civics, so Megacorps are only ones who receive full benefits for clerks. So this way you don't need to spam 10-20+ clerks per planets and they just act as any other jobs.
 
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Ferrus Animus

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Love how excited everyone is for this, however, we're going to have a more structured approach to feedback in the open beta, just so everyone is aware.

Don't tire yourself out leaving feedback here.. feel free to do so, but be sure to leave feedback in the appropriate space at the appropriate time, after playing 3.0.3. :D

Well, if we are encouraged :D

This is more a suggestion that will not apply to 3.0.3., as I don't think such big changes will be done in a minor patch, but given the issues with pop calculations an approach that I think would work within the game (My knowledge is limited to that of a not-PDX-Dev of course).

Restructure how jobs are filled. One of the patches since 2.2. changed job calculations from daily to monthly as when planets grew calculations increased exponentially.
My suggestion would be to have 1 job do its calculation per planet per day. Instead of the current monthly hundreds jobs times hundreds pops times hundreds planets each month, this would decrease calculation by a lot. Even the biggest galaxy would then have only thousands of calculations, which shouldn't demand that much computing power, instead of the hundreds of thousands that ecus and ringworlds cause each month currently.
The game already needs a way to address each job slot anyway, so all this change would need would be a "next job to check" flag as it goes down the list.
To facilitate this demotion timers would be removed, and job weights too, Instead the system would simply check the raw outputs. So the first best pop would be selected to fill it from unemployed pops and pops employed in jobs further down the chain (to not create an endless cycle). The previously employed pop would then take over any now free job, until the calculations get down to it.
We could combine this with other pop-based calculations also being done just at that point, like ethics drift being simply done then.
Some exceptions would be needed for assimilation and purges (But those usually are quite limited), and newly grown/assimilated pops would simply fill the first job that's free on spawn. And of course pops shouldn't leave their jobs if that would create a deficit.

Such an apporach would have many benefits in my mind, and few downsides. For example it would simply reduce the amount of job calculations and the corresponding cause of lag linearly with settled planets instead of the current monthly exponential curve.
Removal of the weights and instead of the ranking by output would simply get pops into the jobs they fit best in, and remove the current stickyness of less-suited pops. Removal of demotions would add flexibility, and an anti-deficit check would prevent new players and the AI from getting into supply issues as is currently the case.

Downsides would be that pops could spend a time in suboptimal jobs and the rearrangement is slower on bigger worlds, but IMO that would even be flavorful. Big massive sprawling planets would take time to optimze, and slowly shift ethics, whereas frontier and rural worlds would optimize faster and could shift ethics and other aspects quickly if something happens (like ethics drift events, happiness losses, etc..) This would make the resource worlds that fuel your economy susceptible to unrest and rebellion, whereas big production hubs would weather short disruptions, but become much harder to manage if issues are left unadressed.

And with pop-based calculation limited this way, pop reduction like is currently attempted wouldn't be necessary.


Ok, I didn't know that you can't "Acquire Assets" without Nemesis. The operation should be in the base game, then.

The only operation available in vanilla is "Gather Intel", which with its cost also reduces the intel floor due to lower infiltration.
It is of dubious use.


You shouldn't pre-build forge/industry you don't need due to upkeep and reducing capacity.

This is true. And it is a bad thing.

If you prebuild specialist jobs like industrial districts or research labs you get three downsides:
- More upkeep for unused districts/buildings
- lower capacity (in case of all non-housing districts) and thereby less growth
- Pops move "up", not producing the raw resources your economy might need and instead consuming them in their new jobs, so a double reduction. In addition the demotion timer prevents them from going back down when necessary.

However, this inability to prebuild planets changes planetary management from "visit, fill the queue, visit again much later" to "visit regularly to check if you can build the next building/district". That is more micro and less micro is the goal.
 
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monkeypunch87

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Love how excited everyone is for this, however, we're going to have a more structured approach to feedback in the open beta, just so everyone is aware.

Don't tire yourself out leaving feedback here.. feel free to do so, but be sure to leave feedback in the appropriate space at the appropriate time, after playing 3.0.3. :D
Nice. Hopefully the more structured approach works out to see beta releases more frequently in the future.
 
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DrNukeLear

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Is there any chance of 3.0.3a, 3.0.3b and/or 3.0.3c betas offered simultaneously? That way we can try three solutions with different values dictating growth effects and provide feedback on more than one possible future version 3.0.3. Just looking to cover the most ground with the least dev time.
 

The_F

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Have you considered to spend some time in a quality of life update instead of a major dlc after nemesis?
CA did this with Total Warhammer some time ago and it helped the game a lot. For stellaris, this could mean a review of some dlc features (like hiveminds) and core features (spending more time on ai improvements, crisis rework, etc) aswell as bugfixing and adressing implausibilites between dlc content.

That said, i really like nemesis so far and hope to see more cool content in the future :)
 
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orc4hire

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Ok, I didn't know that you can't "Acquire Assets" without Nemesis. The operation should be in the base game, then.
Almost like intel is broken without Nemesis?

Grossly limiting intel and then locking most of the ability to gain intel behind a paid DLC breaks the feature, and the game with it.
 
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Bankipriel

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I have seen so many complicated suggestions for growth.

The most enjoyable mod I've played does 4 simple things:

1) total cost for a new pop is a flat, static number
2) total cost for a new pop is twice the base number from 2.8
3) new colonies enjoy a limited modifier that boosts growth & conquered plants suffer a limited modifier that decreases growth
4) carrying capacity, logistic growth, & empire wide malus are all removed

This accomplishes 3 things that help make the game fun:

1) The overall population count in the game is much lower than 2.8
2) There is no additional micro in planetary management over 2.8
3) good 4X gameplay is rewarded, as larger empires outperform smaller empires, as they should

The only thing this scenario needs is the return of a scaling admin/sprawl penalty with teeth for growing empires, giving bureaucrats a real meaning, and forcing expanding empires to plan ahead, or suffer decreased research and increased upkeep costs.
 
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Nebbie Zebbie

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Considering the state of espionage I don't consider it a loss. To be honest what we got is not worthy of anything more than a bullet point. It is really a poor showing, you have to realize the original Master of Orion from the 1994 is better in many parts.
The current state of espionage, sure, but I think it'll get a lot more fleshed out later on.
 

Nebbie Zebbie

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Historically, how many Paradox DLC features (across all their games) would you say get this mythical "fleshed out later on" treatment?
With Stellaris, actually quite a few. Utopia is basically treated as part of the core game. Megacorp is certainly lower down, but we are seeing Megacorp civics get some changes. Synthetic Dawn is also seeing some changes, such as for Rogue Servitors specifically.
 

sillyrobot

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With Stellaris, actually quite a few. Utopia is basically treated as part of the core game. Megacorp is certainly lower down, but we are seeing Megacorp civics get some changes. Synthetic Dawn is also seeing some changes, such as for Rogue Servitors specifically.
Some small aspects of Utopia were adopted as part of the base game, eventually; the DLC as a whole and those parts not absorbed into the base game have received no additional work other than bug/balance updates. Should more portions of Nemesis become part of the base game, then they might get further work.
 

TrotBot

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Hi, if I switch to beta, but I have a 3.0 MP game this saturday, will switching back be a pain? Should I sit this one out to keep compatibility working with my 9 friends for my MP game? Or can I painlessly go back and forth so long as my SSD is ok with it?
 

sillyrobot

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Hi, if I switch to beta, but I have a 3.0 MP game this saturday, will switching back be a pain? Should I sit this one out to keep compatibility working with my 9 friends for my MP game? Or can I painlessly go back and forth so long as my SSD is ok with it?
Copy your current game to a different directory and then update? You can have 2 versions on your PC at once. I'm less certain about how Stellaris deals with multiplayer though.
 

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So...don't build districts or buildings until you have the pops to fill them? You're just ending up paying district/building maintenance on unproductive buildings. And if you don't build jobs unless you have enough pops, you won't have the issue of jobs that will never be worked, either. I typically will build my next building/district when I have zero free jobs on the planet, and it works great. The only thing you ever need to pre-build are city districts, because increasing planet capacity speeds up your growth. And the thing about city districts is that once you turn off your first clerk job, further city districts won't add more jobs because they will already be auto-disabled.

What in the galaxy are you still doing in 3200?

But the game is already over. End game date already came. I won. The planet never had the pops to fill the Jobs.

So this is the question: why there is so many Districts and Buildings to give jobs if they will never be worked anyway....? That's what you don't understand, you are thinking i'm talking about literal not worked jobs, but i'm talking about the Planets Job Capacity, no matter if you already created the jobs or is waiting to build later, there is tons of Jobs that will never be worked.
 
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Everstill

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Open jobs are NOT an issue, you mean clerk jobs created by housing I think.

Your suggestions would destroy commerce basec play styles.

In 2.6-2.8 trade were OP, Megacorps could dominate by power of money ridiculously easily, because they generated cgs without minerals and unity without specialists, neither needing building slots. That meant alloys could be bought and forged, to build fleets/megastructures rapidly.

The clerk jobs are not useless, they provide labour flexibility, prior to 3.0 they attracted pops to unlock slots. The frustration in game with pop growth is caused by labour shortage, planets make specialists but there's no one to mine/farm/tech.
If you allow housing to create a labour pool, you can have the best researcher or entertainer selected. You shouldn't pre-build forge/industry you don't need due to upkeep and reducing capacity.

Production by specialists and basic/strategic resources is one way to measure economic power, but you ignore the diplo benefits of trade, which avoids costly wars and boosts the economy co-operatively. Most min-maxers analysis is flawed as it ignores these secondary effects.

By not filling them and restricting them to some balanced level, you create the conditions for auto resettlement to work for you, filling colonies with migrants.

I think despite clerk jobs taking a lower proportion of economies, trade/diplo/soft power still works, perhaps 10 clerks need to spawn a merchant to help trade, as if they were in commercial megaplexes. Perhaps that ought to be a mid game building, working as a multiplier for clerks (like energy grud/nexus).
No dude. I'm talking about all jobs.

If you have 20 planets that can have 80 jobs each, you will NEVER fill all of them with Pops to work in all jobs. The end game date will arrive and all your planets will be lacking pops to work on the planet job capacity.

All these possible jobs that will never be worked because there is not enough pops are literal useless jobs, because their existence does not change the outcome;

Clerks are just a trap. Instead of sending pops to more productive Jobs, your Pop working as clerk could work as Technician but as he is not working, this technician jobs will never be worked until the late game, because there is not enough pops to work all jobs.
 
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Nononir

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Just putting it out there that I appreciate the Stellaris team listening to player feedback and being quick on the draw in terms of changes. Enjoyed Nemesis a lot so far!
 
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Dragonsteel82

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28 Badges
May 27, 2020
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I did. But not a single planet is filled with Pops. So my Pops are working on more importante jobs while the Clerks and other jobs are literally useless because there is no sufficient pops to work all of them.

It's not that I don't want Clerks being worked, it's that there is no enough pops to work all jobs avaliable on my vacant planets.
My trading dwarven empire with mercantilism and thrifty would put dwarves into clerk jobs because of the trade bonuses. I'm running over 1k in credits from trade alone.