Stellaris 3.0.3 Open Beta AI Feedback Discussion and Replies Thread

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It's not really a bug, more like a missing feature. The AI just doesn't have the functionality to destroy or replace districts, sort of like how it couldn't resettle in 2.8. It is a major problem, and one of the many causes of the AI not scaling well lategame or adapting to new issues.
The AI can resettle? News to me, as I've seen an AI just keep half its pops on its doomed homeworld, leading to a rebellion, leading to the main empire being destroyed by the homeworld blowing up.
Overall it's rather janky how many things the AI can't do.

I have a theory that they have a blind spot about Pop promotion. In the building files there really isn't any indication of Specialist Pops consume more Consumer Goods and Food. So it's very likely the AI has promoted too many Pops.

One such death spiral goes:

  1. Lack of Consumer Goods
  2. Build Industrial District
  3. Promoted Pops consume more
  4. Lack of Food and Consumer Goods
  5. Build Industrial District
  6. No Pops attending the Farms
  7. Crime appears
  8. Build Precinct Houses
  9. Even fewer Pops attending the Farms, and the consume more Consumer Goods and Food
I wouldn't really consider the blind spot bad, since your average player isn't thinking about pop upkeep that much to begin with. The real problem is that Stellaris economies by their very nature spiral out of control if you don't build them right to start with and abuse the market to keep things steady during expansion (and virtually ignore basic mechanics like crime).
Overall, I'm finding that lately I really don't like consumer goods as a mechanic at all, because they just serve as a second kind of food that's way less reliable because bureaucrats and entertainers eat more of it, leading to crazy consumption spikes (and less difference between lithoids and regular organics, because consumer goods are made out of minerals). This is the primary cause of economic death spirals that screw up the AI, and the tediousness of some early game economic decisions. Not having them is honestly more fun (go Gestalts!), so I'd seriously suggest the devs consider axing them entirely and just have industrial districts produce alloys, then have Bureaucrats and Entertainers consume energy credits instead. Pair it with giving some bonuses to Clerks so they actually get competitive, and maybe Stellaris economies would make sense again.
If consumer goods really need to be around, we need to drop all this "artisan" crap and have them be made by worker jobs. I know that in theory they're supposed to be lavish luxuries, but in practice what they really represent is things like furniture and clothing, most of which in practice is made by very low-skilled workers in the real world (even most of the expensive luxury stuff). Basic things to not have the economy collapse shouldn't require specialists.
 
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While this post is not about my experiences in playing 3.0.3, I hope it will be helpful in finding the culprit of the issues.

I've spectated a lot of games in 3.0.*, both modded and unmodded and, I think, I can pinpoint many reasons for possible failures of the ai. This is a list of things that (according to my impression) are responsible for 70%+ of the causes of the breakdown. Also it's important not to believe me without checking, I do not have access to inner workings of the code and I don't know how most of the systems work in detail, my assessment might be wrong.

/common/ai_budget

I think mineral_budget spending on planets should have large static_min past the early game (at least 400). So whenever AI wants to build mining district it will always be able to, AI sometimes keeps spending veeery low mineral income on stations instead of increasing said mineral income.

/common/buildings

Main problem here is usage of two scripted triggers, "buildings_simple_allow" and "building_relaxed_basic_income_check". Both of them seems to be written pre-3.0 (they are located in /common/scripted_triggers) so they fit pre 3.0 economy better, each of them assumes that districts should be prioritised before buildings. In pre 3.0 economy buildings were responsible for specialist jobs and construction of them could crash the economy, this is why these triggers exist.

This is fine for some buildings, but is absolutely harmful for amenity buildings. Each of them requires buildings_simple_allow and this trigger will wait till the districts are built. This stops the construction of holo-theaters, low amenities crash the economy which further stops the trigger from evaluating to yes. AI keeps building more districts, amenities go lower and lower and economy never recovers. At the very least this trigger should be removed from the holo-theater, but it would be better if they were removed altogether (and replaced by a building-specific triggers)


/common/districts

Right now the field (ai_resource_production) makes AI think that an industry district will always provide consumer_goods. This isn't true on forge planets, right now all industry districts show as if they give 1 alloy and 1 consumer_good. It would probably be better if instead industry districts on the planet with forge designation had ai_resource_production of 2 alloys, industry districts on planets with factory designation showed ai_resource_production of 2 consumer_goods and planets without designation showed 1/1 split.

Second, industry districts probably need a trigger in allow = {} similar to "building_relaxed_basic_income_check". While it doesn't happen in 3.0.3 (more on that later, in /economic_plans section), in 3.0.2. AI was regularly overbuilding those tryign to follow the current economic_plan. If there was a trigger checking that energy,food. minerals income are greater than 0,0,50 respectively this wouldn't have happened.

Also from my experience if you increase ai_resource_production of rural districts (mining, farming, generator), AI is more likely to take seriosu care of raw resoruce deficits.


/common/decisions

Population control and discouraging growth shouldn't be used, same with "halt robot assembly" (if AI truly wants to halt robot assembly, it's better to have a destroy ={} field in the robot assembly instead).

/common/edicts


Somewhat of a surprising suggestion, but low difficulty AI really can't afford nutritional plentitude. It usually causes only starvation. The edict should have much lower weight (or, honestly, weight = 0).

/common/colony_types

Honestly, even though visually everything looks terrible when observing (none of the designation make sense, the horror), I don't think think this is major. Overall I think bureaucratic designation is overused and the best way to make AI do "correct" designation is to have a scaling weight. If the weight of each designation (mining, farming, bureaucratic, research) was increased by 3 for 1 building/district, by 6 for for 2 buildings/districts, by 9 for 3 buildings district the resulting distribution would be better and more pleasant for humans to see (more mining districts = proportionally higher weight). This way as a result of a weight comparison designation will be chosen depending on what was the largest amoutn of relevant buildings/districts.

/common/economic_plans

As I see, 3.0.3 economic_plans were a big change for 3.0.2 in that alloys and research income/focuses were removed. This does indeed help with 3.0.2 problem of AI overbuilding industry, but it has a side-effect of AI not prioritising science and alloys nearly enough (it's frequent to see AIs with 15 alloys per month in 2400 according to some of the screenshots in this thread). To fix it is possible to keep 3.0.3 economic_plans, but add a subplan that in case of good raw resource production (potential = {minerals, energy, food > 100,20,5 } for organics and 100,20,0 for non-organics) adds some research and alloys targets.

Alternatively it's possible to instead come back closer to 3.0.2 plans and write a trigger that disallows construction of new industry districts if economy situation is dire (or, actually it's possible to do both. Extra redundancy doesn't hurt the chaotic system).


/common/starbase_modules; /common/starbase_types

Hydroponics is a very very good module, it can really help low difficulty AIs if it was allowed to build them everywhere (and had high weight of it). While it sounds awfully specific, but it indeed a large change in how ensign AI can manage its food requirements.

/common/species_rights

Slavers will rebel. I don't think anything can be done with it (AI can't resettle, even human slaving empires can't be managed without resettling), apart from disabling AI slavery which isn't a good solution. Some things can help though, for example I think any slaver should prioritise identured servitude over any other slavery type (except for serviles, serviles can have caste). I know, it's not #optimal in human case, but this would lower risk of rebellions massively.

/common/technology

Some technologies need to be almost autopicked by AI, namely economy technologies (I suggest to increase the weight of these technologies at least in 10 times, preferably 100). I am talking about technologies which give 20% boosts to miners/technicians/farmers, technology that unlock hydroponics and technologies that unlock resource edicts (capacity_overload, mining_subsidies, etc.).

Frankly, I don't know whether these are "optimal" or popular among players, but they immensely help low difficulty AI manage their upkeep and production.

Quoting from the feedback thread. That's the creator of Starnet AI, posting about all sorts of useful low-hanging fruit for improving the AI in 3.0.x. I really hope the devs carefully consider it, it's full of experienced insight from modding the AI. Good stuff.
 
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I've got logistic growth on standard and empire malus on zero - a few quick observes and I'm not seeing any sort of serious shortages I saw in 3.0.1 occurring yet. These settings may favor build 'working itself out' as far as districts.
 
The AI can resettle? News to me, as I've seen an AI just keep half its pops on its doomed homeworld, leading to a rebellion, leading to the main empire being destroyed by the homeworld blowing up.
The AI at least has auto-resettlement now, which does 95% of what you needed resettlement for in 2.8. Interestingly enough, in 2.8, GToS worked much more slowly on AIs then on player empires. Don't know if that was a bug or a performance optimization.
Overall it's rather janky how many things the AI can't do.
Agreed.
 
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I've got logistic growth on standard and empire malus on zero - a few quick observes and I'm not seeing any sort of serious shortages I saw in 3.0.1 occurring yet. These settings may favor build 'working itself out' as far as districts.
The new growth mechanics (both of them. LG makes the AI's inability to redevelop districts for housing even more crippling and completely cuts off growth on developed planets, while the empire-wide malus makes "muddling along until some more pops grow" impossible) hit the AI pretty hard. Removing them made the AI much more competitive in my games as well.
 
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3.0.3 (bfcc) seems to crash to desktop if any mod is enabled, which is a bit frustrating if I want to test a mod.
 
Hello Community!

Please use this thread to reply and discuss other user's opinions in the AI Feedback Megathread.

This is a reminder to keep discussion civil. Do not personally attack people for any reason, do not resort to name-calling, or deride people
or their opinions. This is supposed to be a safe place to discuss the Economic AI changes and people's opinions on the current
implementation in the 3.0.3 Open Beta, anyone who cannot adhere to these rules will lose the ability to post in this thread and the

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We all want Stellaris to be the best it can be, I'm sorry if these rules seem draconian or premature, we want everyone to have a good
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For the love of all that is holy! Can you stop the AI from building 30 nanite transmuters when I'm only pulling in 2 nanites a month. I go and hunt down all the building and then AI build more and then I'm at -35.

AARRRVBGGHGHGDFG LK#@WQ$!@$#@!#!@~V# ~$#1
 
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About the combat AI

They still
attack my 2.5K starbase with 4x900 fleets, each coming after few months.

If only they knew how to stack. They would be a real threat
 
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I'm seeing glaring problems in early game.
  • Hiveminds for some unknown reasons spam Synaptic Nodes buildings, causing Tree of Life hivemind never have enough food for their 1st colony ship.
  • Galactic Doorstep hivemind somehow doesn't want to colonize nearby habitable planets.
  • Doomsday AI somehow don't get habitable planets spawned nearby and still generally do nothing to stop its doom that leads to rebellion on their one and only capital planet.
  • Generally the AI really likes to go on excess with building industrial districts while going into deficit with other resources such as food.
And these are only the really obvious problems that can be easily found by having max amount of AI in huge galaxy and turn on observe. Around year 2225 and go find the worst performers and you'll almost guarantee to see failing AI to have these symptoms.
Unity is good, I guess, but it's clear the AI has bad building weighting.
Doomsday disables guaranteed habitables for challenge's sake. Personally, I think it's excessive and it's no wonder the AI struggles with it, but I've actually personally seen an AI struggle with it despite colonizing 2 habitables in a system next to its capital...the AI just really can't handle the problems with the homeworld and getting people off it.
The industrial districts thing has been known, and I'm actually shocked the devs didn't fix it. I thought with all this talk about changing the specialty buildings and making it so you can put both CG and alloy specialization buildings, that this would mean Forge World no longer gets rid of CG income and thus screws the AI (because it doesn't understand it no longer gets the CG income), but...here we are.
 
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I suppose if Doomsday origin is by design not able to handled by the AI, then random spawned AI empires should exclude this origin. Lots of bad stuff but the thing with AI not colonizing should really be caught before pushing the patch out...
 
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/common/buildings

Main problem here is usage of two scripted triggers, "buildings_simple_allow" and "building_relaxed_basic_income_check". Both of them seems to be written pre-3.0 (they are located in /common/scripted_triggers) so they fit pre 3.0 economy better, each of them assumes that districts should be prioritised before buildings. In pre 3.0 economy buildings were responsible for specialist jobs and construction of them could crash the economy, this is why these triggers exist.

This is fine for some buildings, but is absolutely harmful for amenity buildings. Each of them requires buildings_simple_allow and this trigger will wait till the districts are built. This stops the construction of holo-theaters, low amenities crash the economy which further stops the trigger from evaluating to yes. AI keeps building more districts, amenities go lower and lower and economy never recovers. At the very least this trigger should be removed from the holo-theater, but it would be better if they were removed altogether (and replaced by a building-specific triggers)

This is likely the cause of the "AI has 3 empty building slots, no resource districts, and decides to build a city district first" issue I posted -- that AI was at 2 amenities, and thus needed more, but the only way it was allowed to get any was the single clerk from city districts.
 
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For the love of all that is holy! Can you stop the AI from building 30 nanite transmuters when I'm only pulling in 2 nanites a month. I go and hunt down all the building and then AI build more and then I'm at -35.

AARRRVBGGHGHGDFG LK#@WQ$!@$#@!#!@~V# ~$#1
There are many things wrong with the planetary/sector automation AI, it looks like everything in there is pre 3.0 (and includes other even older bugs).
 
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Going to play this later today, but here are the key things I will be looking for:

1. Does the AI lose its planets due to low stability and rebellion
2. Does the AI maintain a fleet and grow it in strength
3. Does the AI settle new planets
4. When I take over AI planets, do the building and districts make sense?
So, I have done one full play through on ensign difficulty with basically default settings in a medium galaxy.

1. I still see the AI low stabbing itself in the early game and losing two to three of its handful of planets to rebellion
2. I didn't have the luck of meeting any empires until like 50 years into the game, so I can't comment on their initial fleet maintenance. What I can say is that the AI never really teched up nor built a decent industrial base
3. A few AI did settle a decent number of planets, but there were also some that only made it to like four. It could be helpful if the AI teched better and then terraformed, as I wonder if the AI not settling is just about the luck of getting decent planets
4. I wouldn't say that the AI economies I take over are bad, so much as very underdeveloped. AI might be too trigger happy with population and robot controls
 
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Miscellaneous impressions unrelated to the AI:
1. Made the Galactic Imperium for the first time. Seems like the Emperor should auto get open borders and/or they need to expand the crusade targets to include fallen and awakened empires. Also, feels like the galaxy shouldn't be angry so much as afraid when I start planet cracking the awakened empire. We need the Tarkin doctrine, damn it :D
2. Had a weird interaction where I declared crusade on a tiny nation that wasn't in the GI, but ended up at war only with the empire that had guaranteed them (who had actually been a part of the Imperium). The actual target remained neutral.
3. Noticed a bug where fleets set to the raiding bombardment stance prior to changing civics that no longer include raiding, will remain in the raiding stance unless changed.
4. Slave resettlement using the slave processing facilities seems slow. Also, it seems like when you raid a slave and there's no job for them, they get put on the market? There needs to be an option to disable that process so that unemployed slaves stay put until the processing facility gets a chance to ship them out. I also think there needs to be some interactivity on thrall worlds so that slaves in the "toiler" job get resettled by slave processing facilities
 
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3. Noticed a bug where fleets set to the raiding bombardment stance prior to changing civics that no longer include raiding, will remain in the raiding stance unless changed.

Did'ja make a bug report post?

4. Slave resettlement using the slave processing facilities seems slow. Also, it seems like when you raid a slave and there's no job for them, they get put on the market? There needs to be an option to disable that process so that unemployed slaves stay put until the processing facility gets a chance to ship them out. I also think there needs to be some interactivity on thrall worlds so that slaves in the "toiler" job get resettled by slave processing facilities

Have you tried using a Transit Hub in conjunction with the processing facilities? I haven't gotten far enough to test it myself. I know it's super fast for resettling citizen species.
 
Playing multiplayer game with friend, huge galaxy on commodore. About year 2350, I am devouring swarm with about 8th galaxy, friend is militarist/materialist. I am rank one with fleet power around 250k, friend is 2nd on about 75k. All ai is pathetic compared to him in fleet power.

This is not good, my last game on commodore just after v3.0 release the ai could build at least 500k fleets if not more.

My friend wants to give up as he knows he can’t beat me without ai help now and as they are all pathetic to him he like what’s the point carrying on.

Also please fix the fleet ai for fallen empires, why are they sitting outside their territory and also the isolationist FE has got his fleets on a patrol pattern into my friends territory, it’s not at war with anyone, just really strange.
 
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AI still seems to cheat for getting resources/fleet etc. At least that's my perception given not debugging the game. In that screenshot, the bottom empire is Materialist and Fanatic Xenophobe. I've mostly militarized my economy (I didn't colonize that one other planet yet) I'm Fanatic Militarist and Barbaric Despoiler. Yet, they have extremely more fleet power despite how much they've used on expansion. -27 navy amount under Warscore.
I play a non-overpowered style and the AI just cheats to take away my advantage I grinded for.


AI on captain gets 25% additive resource production bonus (that is shown in the description and I assume you were aware of it. It's roughly compensated by picking min-maxed population traits), apart from that it does not cheat.

The real reason these AIs have larger economy is that they've spent less resources on expanding. I know, their empire has more outposts, but outposts are paying back fast (3 mining stations that costs 100 minerals and make 2 energy, 2 minerals and 2 minerals will pay back in around 6 years), it's the planets that slow you down. And in planets departement you both colonised 3 planets (but you did it quicker judging by pop count). Not just that, you also have 2 robot assemblies that don't produce anything, consume alloys, and are only an investment in the future. If you check the income you are making 23 alloys per month, they are making 33. Can you guess what's the total upkeep of your jobs? (correct, it's 10). Each colonised planet ends in a loss of about 3 corvettes, but if your alloy income difference lasted for 10 years, you've lost around 12 corvettes worth of alloys and that is much more impactiful. Note that their origin (4 extra pops) gave them an economy boost early that ran out about 2 years before the save, this also contributed to their larger economy&expansion. And on top of that you've built an extra lab and they didn't.

Before jumping to the cheating conclusion you could have switched to observer mod and see what's going on. If you did it, it would be possible to investigate and find out why they have larger fleet and also it would be possible to see that on top of the fact that you invested more into the future they also have a leader with military traits and got a temporary maraudr event further boosting their fleet power.
 
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amenities expenditure is not scaled with lower pop count, amenities has now been almost as trivial as crime

if you see from my screenshots, the 191 pop ecumenopolis has excess 41 amenities with 0 clerk and entertainer

* in the screenshot, i have 185% boost to amenities, although 30% comes from consecrated worlds and 2nd arts installation, but that can be replaced with distribute luxury decision for 25% boost, so most playstyles can get 180% boost

ecumenopolis is an extreme example of high pops, with the current meta to keep most planets pop around 50-80 and try to go for gaia worlds, amenities is now even less of an issue

my non-gaia homeworld with 80 pop is drowning in excess 181 amenities, the other worlds have 70 pops with excess 40-70 amenities

second screenshot: my 3rd highest pop world have 62 pops and excess 86 amenities

holotheatre entertainers are now even more useless than even clerks
 

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