Steel Mills should be added as a building

[Quantum_AI]

Steel production at the time was very closely linked to your industrial capacity. In fact, many researchers use it as a proxy to estimate the industrial strength of the war participants. Since you can make synthetic oil and rubber refineries, its odd that you cant build steel mills - a tech that was wayyyy more common than synthetic oil/ rubber.

From a gameplay perspective, it makes sense if you are playing a non-major. Its odd that you can grow to have dozens of factories but you may still have 0 steel production. It also disincentives me from building big ships which are not very meta, but they are very fun!

Its pretty simple to mod in. Literally takes 15 seconds to edit the buildings text file but would be nice to have in the game. Many mods have it and it does not break balance since most majors have enough steel anyway. Its more for the minors.

 

[dunka2]

'Steel' in the game isn't really steel. It represents iron mining. Aluminum also isn't aluminum, but represents bauxite deposits. They should really change the name to make it clearer. It could be interesting to add in the respective factories, but it might prove too complicated for the AI.

 

[TalyonUngol]

I, personally, do not want Steel Mills to be put in the game. It adds an extra layer of historic/realism to the game I like. If you need steel, you gonna have to trade for it or in the case of need, conquer a country to take their steel. Thats how it was done and is still being done. Those without resources will take countries that have the resources.

 

[Akela]

Like @dunka2 says, HoI 'steel' has more to do with iron mining than the actual refinement*.

The big thing with steel mills vs synthetic oil & rubber is that the steel mills don't allow you to bypass/substitute raw resource requirements while the synth refineries do.

In particular, let's look at Germany and Britain (the two most likely candidates for resource shortages that they can't trade their way out of due to a blockade). Neither of these countries can realistically say 'Oh, I'll just dramatically increase local steel production by building some more mills', since they're already bottle-necked on iron ore, not production capacity. On the other hand, they both did have readily available coal supplies, so they can produce synthetic rubber or oil locally by opening up new refineries.


*except there are a few places where it doesn't - resources in HOI are kind of fudged in multiple places. The goal is to get something that works for gameplay and mostly approximates the historical reality, and I think that's a fair approach.

 

[Quantum_AI]

'Steel' in the game isn't really steel. It represents iron mining. Aluminum also isn't aluminum, but represents bauxite deposits. They should really change the name to make it clearer.

No, that is incorrect. They represent both the mining and the processing. For example, many of the cities in the game have steel/ aluminum which had no iron ore deposits. As another example, there are dozens of focuses and decisions that specify that you are building a steel mill or aluminum factory while others for ore.

Take a look at the below screenshot. You have both Steel mills and Iron mines. The game abstracts both to state resources. I am just asking it to be buildable like oil and rubber.

 

[Quantum_AI]

The big thing with steel mills vs synthetic oil & rubber is that the steel mills don't allow you to bypass/substitute raw resource requirements while the synth refineries do.

Iron ore is quite common though. It isn't rate like many other metals. Countries during the WW2 were just not developed enough to extract it. And that brings me to my original point. If you can develop your minor nation to have 50 or 100 factories, you should be able to mine the ore.

 

[Akela]

Iron ore is quite common though. It isn't rate like many other metals. Countries during the WW2 were just not developed enough to extract it.

There's no meaningful difference between a deposit you can't exploit and a deposit that doesn't exist. If you can't extract it, it's useless to you.

Both Britain and Germany agreed that Swedish iron ore was crucial to the German war effort, and put significant effort into trying to control it (Germany to keep the imports going, Britain to cut them off). That suggests to me that neither of them agreed with you that 'iron ore is quite common' and that you could just build some extra steel mills. Interestingly, Germany apparently needed Swedish ore even to be able to make use of what they did mine locally - German iron ore was mostly low-quality and needed to be mixed with higher-quality imports to be usable.

 

[Quantum_AI]

There's no meaningful difference between a deposit you can't exploit and a deposit that doesn't exist. If you can't extract it, it's useless to you.

You have yet again failed to understand the point. There is a distinction between iron ore existing and the ability of a country at a certain technological level to discover and to extract that ore.

You are restricting yourself to the real world case as it existed in the 1930s. I have repeatedly stated that I am talking about scenarios where a minor country has rapidly industrialized and should thus have the means to extract that ore, which it was unable to historically because of technological or economic limitations.


Just to further drive home the point: Far more iron ore existed in China than in Sweden. But it could not survey and extract it back then. But in case I beat Japan and become an economic superpower, I should be able to do that.

 

[pheonicia]

You have yet again failed to understand the point. There is a distinction between iron ore existing and the ability of a country at a certain technological level to discover and to extract that ore.

You are restricting yourself to the real world case as it existed in the 1930s. I have repeatedly stated that I am talking about scenarios where a minor country has rapidly industrialized and should thus have the means to extract that ore, which it was unable to historically because of technological or economic limitations.


Just to further drive home the point: Far more iron ore existed in China than in Sweden. But it could not survey and extract it back then. But in case I beat Japan and become an economic superpower, I should be able to do that.

So, you mean like the resource extraction decisions? Those are already in the game, and you can only really afford them if you have the spare industrial capacity necessary. If there's a decision that isn't in but that you think should be given a specific location that wasn't exploited until later, there's the suggestions sub forum.

 

[Nakkivene]

Just for gameplay purposes I'd like this or more steel in the world.

 

[Fulgrymm]

Need more chromium. Always more chromium.

 

[Akela]

You have yet again failed to understand the point.

I am not 'failing to understand' the point - I'm rejecting the point.

In WWII, iron ore was a scarce resource. Countries did not have the ability to just magic steel out of the air; if they wanted more steel, they had to secure a source either through trade or through conquest. Literally the whole point of the resource system is to model this reality - to add bottlenecks to production that cannot be dealt with by just throwing IC at it. If you add steel mills, then the steel resource no longer has a purpose in-game - you might as well delete it entirely and replace all steel supplies with additional factories.

Synthetic plants are an obvious exception to this rule, but the key difference is that they exist because Germany historically did build refineries to produce artificial oil and rubber. There is no equivalent precedent for doing that with iron/steel, for the simple reason that there's such thing as 'artificial iron'. (The synth plants we currently have in game are also arguably overpowered, so rather a bad example to copy for designing new features.)

I have repeatedly stated that I am talking about scenarios where a minor country has rapidly industrialized and should thus have the means to extract that ore, which it was unable to historically because of technological or economic limitations.

That's what 'prospect for resources' decisions represent. If you think that there's a country that should be able to open up specific reserves that existed but weren't historically exploited then that's fair enough. Post a suggestion somewhere, and the devs may well look into it.

But that's an argument for adding new resource prospecting decisions, not a Star Trek replicator.

 

[DragonScythe]

I don't think we need more resource generating buildings. Having resources tied to the map leads to better gameplay as it informs and influences strategic targets. If you desperately need steel, attacking Sweden might become more preferable to trading with them, especially if they stop exporting.

I do think there could be room for adding more resources to the map, as certain parts of the world have very little strategic value. On the other hand, I tend to prefer historically-based resource placement for more realistic outcomes.

Perhaps the existing system of resource prospecting could be expanded to allow for more regions to be developed, while keeping existing resource deposits historical.

 

[Quantum_AI]

Countries did not have the ability to just magic steel out of the air;

No, you still don't get it lol. The ore is already there. Its not coming out of ""thin air"". Countries just didn't have the tech or economic means to get to it.

Regarding your "Star Trek replicator" comment, you can literally do that with synthetic oil and rubber right now. Heck, even Bhutan or Honduras can create a synthetic oil refinery and even a nuclear bomb but god forbid if they make a tiny steel mill!!

Having resources tied to the map leads to better gameplay as it informs and influences strategic targets.

That is what oil and rare earths are there for. Germany and Japan were mostly going after the oil fields. But in the game, oil and rubber are non-issues because you can just create as much of it as you want.

 

[CantGetNoSleep]

As you said, there are mods that do this. I've played with mods with steel mills and it's fair to say it adds little to gameplay for the majors which tend to have tons of steel, but it can be a lifeline for minors which can find it hard to import steel, particularly in the late game. Personally, I'd rather more options to prospect for resources - and they could be incredibly expensive to develop if the country doesn't have good deposits.

 

[Dogukan91]

Is there a good source on the steel-making capacity during the era? I didn't know that many countries were not capable of doing the mining.

From a gameplay perspective, would it make sense to add it as a very late game technology?

 

[Cobannos]

I agree, Steel Mills should be added. I don't really see why that should be a problem. Almost every country had it's domestic steel production and it's really not like you can go ham and produce a whole lot. Steel Mills use building slots just as refineries and sometimes it's better/more important to build a civ or mil factory. So in the end you won't be able to cover your need for steel fully and become self-sufficient ressource wise anyway at least in my experience. And then you won't bother and go conquer some steel. But it adds to economic planning especially for minors without a lot of ressources and a little bit more economic depth would be nice. It's also a bit stupid to use half of your civ economy just to get all the steel you'd need for your mil economy. Sure imports were important but the current system is broken IMO.

 

[Quantum_AI]

Almost every country had it's domestic steel production

Exactly. Mao literally told people to build steel furnaces in their backyards!

Adding some steel mills should not be beyond the realm of possibility, especially if you manage to rapidly industrialize during the course of the game. Iron ore is not really rare. The challenge is extracting and processing it which is why building a steel mill will cost you just like building dockyards.

 

[Vlad123]

I agree, Steel Mills should be added. I don't really see why that should be a problem. Almost every country had it's domestic steel production and it's really not like you can go ham and produce a whole lot. Steel Mills use building slots just as refineries and sometimes it's better/more important to build a civ or mil factory. So in the end you won't be able to cover your need for steel fully and become self-sufficient ressource wise anyway at least in my experience. And then you won't bother and go conquer some steel. But it adds to economic planning especially for minors without a lot of ressources and a little bit more economic depth would be nice. It's also a bit stupid to use half of your civ economy just to get all the steel you'd need for your mil economy. Sure imports were important but the current system is broken IMO.

The system of trade not are broken if exist the possibility to stock resource and the commerce not are for CIV...but for money

 

[KubiG37]

I, personally, do not want Steel Mills to be put in the game. It adds an extra layer of historic/realism to the game I like. If you need steel, you gonna have to trade for it or in the case of need, conquer a country to take their steel. Thats how it was done and is still being done. Those without resources will take countries that have the resources.

Sorry, but if you don't want Steel Mills, why did you use all the arguments FOR steel mills?