Staying small. Is there a point, or a way?

[Aries666]

I'm playing Ireland ATM (5 provinces, 9 land FL and 25 navy FL)... So boooring =(((

Vassal Scotland, make it a march, crush England . I found marches really helpful early in my Venice run, annoyingly though when they get too big you get a message saying they have lost their march bonus yet they retain march status forcing you to eat a stab hit to revoke it.

 

[Zak Preston]

Vassal Scotland, make it a march, crush England . I found marches really helpful early in my Venice run, annoyingly though when they get too big you get a message saying they have lost their march bonus yet they retain march status forcing you to eat a stab hit to revoke it.

Scotland is allied to France and Castile, they will join defensive war for sure. I've managed to relase Wales from England, Cornwall is next. I'm colonizing Canada and New York now, hope colonial nations will contribute in my FLs some day =)

Also I've posted a new complex thread about new possible features

 

[hajutze]

I wouldn't say I am terribly big - 19 provinces. I guess I could leave Anatolya alone but I got Chios and Sugla from rebels, I wanted Hudavendigar for the trade bonus and it was the capital of the ottomans ... so I decided to take Nikaea in CK2 terms and call it a day.

I wanted to make Trade Companies, Sadly I couldn't gimp my self enough in order to westernize

Point being, there is probably no "point"* but I'd say there is "a way" to stay competitive with the right ideas (and policies). And I still lack the 6th building so I guess I'll have around 160k army BEFORE offensive. Probably 200k after it.

*While not expanding yourself you can play the role of a regional police and bring order. I am waiting for the right moment to liberate the slavs from those pesky italians,

 

[Zak Preston]

I wouldn't say I am terribly big - 19 provinces. I guess I could leave Anatolya alone but I got Chios and Sugla from rebels, I wanted Hudavendigar for the trade bonus and it was the capital of the ottomans ... so I decided to take Nikaea in CK2 terms and call it a day.

I wanted to make Trade Companies, Sadly I couldn't gimp my self enough in order to westernize

Point being, there is probably no "point"* but I'd say there is "a way" to stay competitive with the right ideas (and policies). And I still lack the 6th building so I guess I'll have around 160k army BEFORE offensive. Probably 200k after it.

*While not expanding yourself you can play the role of a regional police and bring order. I am waiting for the right moment to liberate the slavs from those pesky italians,

This is my Brittany game.

• I have 13 provinces with around 56 BT, 50 land FL and around 200 naval. Haven't got any single military idea.
• Almost banished England from Europe (they are in Brazil now)
• Completely destroyed France, 2 more wars and they are to be banished in Brazil too (they got colonies there just near England)
• Scotland, Northumberland, Provence and one more minor are my vassals and marche
• Burgundy and Spain are my meat shields from Portugal and Austria
• I tend to take under protectorate any natives in NA to let them westernize and live as they want.
• Almost all west coast of NA belongs to my colonies (any of my colonies is stronger than me)

My next targets are Portugal, Aragon and Castile: will release Galicia, Granada and Catalonia (need to let Castile eat Aragon first).

 

[hajutze]

And I still lack the 6th building so I guess I'll have around 160k army BEFORE offensive. Probably 200k after it.

260k after lv6 buildings and Offensive. Still at the top (forcelimit wise). All advisors are lv3 and I make 60-70 gp per month.

OK so staying small is doable ... now we just have to find a reason

The only upside I've found is that I ALWAYS have MP in abundance. I am generally 20 years ahead of tech, I've built every building, I have 4 generals + 1 admiral all the time. Could be staying at stab 3 but I really feel like it's a waste.

 

[Zak Preston]

260k after lv6 buildings and Offensive. Still at the top (forcelimit wise). All advisors are lv3 and I make 60-70 gp per month.

OK so staying small is doable ... now we just have to find a reason

The only upside I've found is that I ALWAYS have MP in abundance. I am generally 20 years ahead of tech, I've built every building, I have 4 generals + 1 admiral all the time. Could be staying at stab 3 but I really feel like it's a waste.

How many provinces do you have and what is their total BT (you can check on start screen before loading game)

I have huge issues with money and manpower, since most of Europeans tend to take a lot of military ideas, and I need around 2:1 ratio to win for sure.

 

[hajutze]

I barely make any income from the BT*. My forcelimit is mostly from buildings, ideas and policies as well.

Provinces - 19 (what I had from the picture above) most of them are dirt-low BT. I guess I could NOT take 3 of the Otto provinces but the rest is pretty much Greece + the Islands and what I've got from the rebels, heck I didn't bother getting Caffa, Sinop and Trebizond.
BT - Total 96. So the average is 5 (5.05).

I think even with 9 provinces 150k army should be doable.

*Income:
Tax - 17.34
Production - 41.57
Trade - 211.14*-

** Would've been more if I could actually westernize...

 

[Zak Preston]

I barely make any income from the BT*. My forcelimit is mostly from buildings, ideas and policies as well.

Provinces - 19 (what I had from the picture above) most of them are dirt-low BT. I guess I could NOT take 3 of the Otto provinces but the rest is pretty much Greece + the Islands and what I've got from the rebels, heck I didn't bother getting Caffa, Sinop and Trebizond.
BT - Total 96. So the average is 5 (5.05).

I think even with 9 provinces 150k army should be doable.

*Income:
Tax - 17.34
Production - 41.57
Trade - 211.14*-

** Would've been more if I could actually westernize...

Actually what you could and should do is just surround yourself with a few vassals (they contribute to FL too) or marches and start crushing local superpowers. For example take Bulgaria and let them for Transylvania => Romania, Release Serbia\Bosnia from Naples and try to form a South Slavic vassal (Yugoslavia?) or free => vassalize Syria and feed them surrounding territories with their cultural group, then head to Caucasus and do the same with Georgia =))

The bad thing is that you are limited with 4-7 diplomatic relations (with ideas) and from some point you will be left on your own with a vassal swarm. Also, after you get max dip, relations you actually won't have any activities except fighting other nations just for fun, since you are not a colonizer and fighting for trade companies is not an option if you want to stay small.

 

[hajutze]

Already did that ... It was boring ... literally autowin.

I dont really feel that one could be classified as "small" with a lot of vassals ...

 

[Aries666]

Little update on my Venice game, whilst my vassals owned more or less the Ottoman empire in its real life maximum, I controlled Venice, Trevisio, Barcelona, Valencia, Constantinople, Humvjsasja (the one near constantinople), Rosetta, Alexandria and Liguria. My income was ~400 a month in 1700 (almost all trade), land FL 100 fleet FL 120. I managed Venetian sea but it was a real ball ache, I had to create a CN in Brazil, annex my Mentese, Milan and Syria vassals selling the lot to the CN and required 450 heavy frigates to make the 90% trade power, really took the fun out of what was a nice game until then.

In summary you can stay small and make lots of cash, buy a big army etc if you focus on dominating trade.

Edit: there is one major advantage to staying small, you are always miles ahead on tech, at times I literally could not spend my points (+3 stab, 0 WE, loads of generals, full cultural conversion, no inflation)

 

[Nunn45]

Its a shame there is not much that a small nation can do when historically a lot of what this game considers small nations played important roles in their time.
The biggest issues i see is that theirs very little benefit to staying small while huge benefits to expanding like mad, and that Military sizes grow to crazy levels with little hope to smaller nations even with far better strategies and tactics.

Maybe a bonus to tech, country stability and centralization features for smaller nations would be a good start.

 

[Incompetent]

I don't think staying small should be specifically rewarded, and we certainly don't need to go back to the EU2/3 world of hyperteching. Countries with <5 provinces are never going to be superpowers. But there do need to be more ways for medium-sized countries to invest their money and monarch points in getting 'taller' as an alternative to territorial expansion.

 

[Starshock]

I think an increased tech cost for larger nations would be somewhat historic, or at least give smaller nations a discount.

Also how about combat modifiers for smaller nations fighting in their home territory? Much like the hordes have the shock bonus.

 

[salmanbabri]

Buildings need to be buffed. That would make building infrastructure in a medium sized empire a good alternative to going on a conquering spree. The real problem would be how to make buildings both powerful as well as an engaging element of the game.

 

[Nunn45]

The issue there is that buffing buildings alone wont help that much in making medium powers more viable, since being big will still be more beneficial as you will get those same building buffs.
If your to go that route you would have to make a system where infrastructure becomes more difficult as you get bigger, a penalty beyond the current lack of monarch points.

 

[Zak Preston]

Little update on my Venice game, whilst my vassals owned more or less the Ottoman empire in its real life maximum, I controlled Venice, Trevisio, Barcelona, Valencia, Constantinople, Humvjsasja (the one near constantinople), Rosetta, Alexandria and Liguria. My income was ~400 a month in 1700 (almost all trade), land FL 100 fleet FL 120. I managed Venetian sea but it was a real ball ache, I had to create a CN in Brazil, annex my Mentese, Milan and Syria vassals selling the lot to the CN and required 450 heavy frigates to make the 90% trade power, really took the fun out of what was a nice game until then.

In summary you can stay small and make lots of cash, buy a big army etc if you focus on dominating trade.

Edit: there is one major advantage to staying small, you are always miles ahead on tech, at times I literally could not spend my points (+3 stab, 0 WE, loads of generals, full cultural conversion, no inflation)

He-he, you took the sweetest provinces with highest BT and trade income possible. Your average BT per province was at 9 ducats and tour trade income should really be just insane.
Why did you sell European provinces to your CNs?

Its a shame there is not much that a small nation can do when historically a lot of what this game considers small nations played important roles in their time.
The biggest issues i see is that theirs very little benefit to staying small while huge benefits to expanding like mad, and that Military sizes grow to crazy levels with little hope to smaller nations even with far better strategies and tactics.

Maybe a bonus to tech, country stability and centralization features for smaller nations would be a good start.

Actually small nations (with 9-15 mediocre provinces) can do a lot,they just need a lot (I mean A LOT) of luck, patience and colonies. This means that at some point you will have to seat for 30-50 years and do nothing except improving relations. The worst part is the start, when you have to surround yourself with allies first. Small nations already have no problems with rebellions, stability and inflation, but they have a huge problem with tax income, manpower and FLs. This is why they have to focus on trade, diplomacy and colonization but forget about military ideas until lategame.

I don't think staying small should be specifically rewarded, and we certainly don't need to go back to the EU2/3 world of hyperteching. Countries with <5 provinces are never going to be superpowers. But there do need to be more ways for medium-sized countries to invest their money and monarch points in getting 'taller' as an alternative to territorial expansion.

I guess staying medium-small should be rewarded, especially when all provinces are in same culture group and all cultures are accepted.

I think an increased tech cost for larger nations would be somewhat historic, or at least give smaller nations a discount.

Also how about combat modifiers for smaller nations fighting in their home territory? Much like the hordes have the shock bonus.

Giving military bonus to small nations while fighting at home territories sounds nice. We also need a way to increase provinces stats (BT, production and manpower) at the cost of MP.

Buildings need to be buffed. That would make building infrastructure in a medium sized empire a good alternative to going on a conquering spree. The real problem would be how to make buildings both powerful as well as an engaging element of the game.

The issue there is that buffing buildings alone wont help that much in making medium powers more viable, since being big will still be more beneficial as you will get those same building buffs.
If your to go that route you would have to make a system where infrastructure becomes more difficult as you get bigger, a penalty beyond the current lack of monarch points.

I guess nothing about big nations should be nerfed, since lots of players enjoy warmongering, but we need some buffs to small/medium homogeneous states to give an alternate gameplay.

 

[Aries666]

He-he, you took the sweetest provinces with highest BT and trade income possible. Your average BT per province was at 9 ducats and tour trade income should really be just insane.
Why did you sell European provinces to your CNs?

It was the only way I could see to get the Venetian Sea achievement. CN's provide you with 50% of their trade power, with vassals I could only get to around 80-85% power in the trade node despite being 350 ships over forcelimit.

 

[hajutze]

Attack everyone and occupy them ?

 

[Aries666]

Didnt have enough men to take on Spain, France and Austria combined and France was my only ally. With France though I was able to take the centres of trade in the genoa node reducing the downstream transfers from there into Alexandria which I had to fight pretty much the whole HRE + spain for, with the help of France of course

 

[Nunn45]

Actually small nations (with 9-15 mediocre provinces) can do a lot,they just need a lot (I mean A LOT) of luck, patience and colonies. This means that at some point you will have to seat for 30-50 years and do nothing except improving relations. The worst part is the start, when you have to surround yourself with allies first. Small nations already have no problems with rebellions, stability and inflation, but they have a huge problem with tax income, manpower and FLs. This is why they have to focus on trade, diplomacy and colonization but forget about military ideas until lategame.

At some point you got to consider how many colonies you have before you are technicaly considered a medium-large power with your overseas empire.
Trade wise your at a huge disadvantage since the other nations can just outbuild you in light ships and control more land to force you out, kinda miss the old EU3 where smaller nations had a stronger trade presence in the free market.

guess nothing about big nations should be nerfed, since lots of players enjoy warmongering, but we need some buffs to small/medium homogeneous states to give an alternate gameplay.

I much prefer buffs to smaller nations rather then nerfs to larger nations, though they have to be balanced out so that buffs for smaller-medium nations dont overflow to larger nations.