State wide infrastructure modifiers don't make sense

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Natural%20Infrastructure%202.png


As we can see in this screenshot of the latest monthly update, the state of Lombardy geta a % malus to infrastructure because of Alps hugging it's northen border. While this makes sense for goods/people moving from one valley to another and from germany to italy, it is completely nonsensincal for the other 50% of the terrritory that is part of the Po Valley, literally the perfect territory for infrastructure! (well it's a bit of an exaggeration, but you get the idea)

800px-Italia_ferrovie_1861.03.17.png

State of italian railways in 1861, notice how they're positioned right under the alps, because why would they go through them and "suffer infrascture penalties"?

Why must I be penalized for connecting Milan to Venice or Bologna? There is no big mountain range between those cities, so why a 15% malus?
Also I must acknowledge the presence of a Po river modifier, which might counteract the malus, but given that in the past we've seen rivers giving a static +X to infrastructure instead of a % one, I'm not sure what the balance would be. To be clear, I'm not against the way the modifiers work, it makes sense for difficoult terrain to give problems to railways, while it wouldn't make much sense for rivers helping them, I'm just sad that the homogenization of geographic features to a state level will result in some nonsensical situations all over the world.

I feel like this is part of a bigger problem, related to the state being the de facto minumum level of administration, with provinces being used for... I don't know, army movement? This is the same problem HoI4 has, but it's a smaller issue there because the game is focused on combat and not on internal administration, while the opposite seems to be the case for Vicky3.
 
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I am against how these state wide modifiers work...
I do not like the tropical/amazon rainforest one, too. A railway is a railway no matter what. Tropical climates and geography could lead to much higher build costs and higher maintenance, I guess.

For mountainous areas it gets more complex, I guess...this type of barrier can be overcome with engineering, and sometimes it cant be overcome at all.
In any case, devs should study geography case by case, In the case of Lombardy (completely open and flat on one side) plopping there a global % malus does not make any sense.

Edit: someone mentioned the more buildings required to reach the same level of infrstructure mimics increased maintenance and build costs, this is 100% fine for me if states dont have a limited number of infrastructure buildings slots. I'd still apply it to heterogeneous or particular regions.
 
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I do not like the tropical/amazon rainforest one, too. A railway is a railway no matter what. Tropical climates and geography could lead to much higher build costs and higher maintenance, I guess.
Infrastructure is not just railways. A dense forest or hilly terrain make goods harder to move around which impacts infrastructure, so just giving higher cost to rail lines wouldn't be appropriate.

My first instinct would make to keep the persentage modifier but exempt rail from that. Rail instead get higher costs in its place. So once a rail network is established the terrain impact is minimized, but it is more expensive to do so.
 
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From a cost perspective :
Their is no difference between saiing : you do need X% more workers or the workers output is 1/X% less effectif. From thatvsingle state point of view you would still need the same amount Z of real infrastructure output.

From a Geography/Balance perspective :
I remember as a child having to pass the alps on family holidays. Whanting to comnect Milan/Brescia to Bern/Wittelsbach directly is a huge concern. While its true the game mechanics simulate goods only need to flow to Rome, it has to represent tranalpic trade as well.

From a province/state perspective :
Im actually really glad the devs seems to stand coherently with the state idea. One akward thing in V2 and lesser extend EUIV is how some mechanics ty to province while other to the state level. Personally I dont see any true help into simulating everything into an even smaller area (province vs state/region). Im thinking about the problems with RGO output (nobody moves to my iron producing provinces while having massive unemployement just next to it) tecruitement (while I think it will be done diferently).

I can, however, understand the argument their should exist certain railways/roads to simulate blockading thoose supplies / reinfircements ect.
 
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From a cost perspective :
Their is no difference between saiing : you do need X% more workers or the workers output is 1/X% less effectif. From thatvsingle state point of view you would still need the same amount Z of real infrastructure output.
But there is a difference between that and "you need X% more goods" to either build or maintain the rail. That would mean the number of employed pops is the same regardless, what is impacted is the other costs of running rail.

From a province/state perspective :
Im actually really glad the devs seems to stand coherently with the state idea. One akward thing in V2 and lesser extend EUIV is how some mechanics ty to province while other to the state level. Personally I dont see any true help into simulating everything into an even smaller area (province vs state/region). Im thinking about the problems with RGO output (nobody moves to my iron producing provinces while having massive unemployement just next to it) tecruitement (while I think it will be done diferently).
I definitively agree with that. A lot of people who foundly remember of Vic 2's provinces seem to forget, or ignore, about how much of the mechanics were actually on a state level, not province. Most of the important mechanics too, like factories and national focus. And this awkwardness mostly caused problems, so centralizing all into states makes a lot more sense design wise.
 
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I definitively agree with that. A lot of people who foundly remember of Vic 2's provinces seem to forget, or ignore, about how much of the mechanics were actually on a state level, not province. Most of the important mechanics too, like factories and national focus. And this awkwardness mostly caused problems, so centralizing all into states makes a lot more sense design wise.
Exactly !

But there is a difference between that and "you need X% more goods" to either build or maintain the rail. That would mean the number of employed pops is the same regardless, what is impacted is the other costs of running rail.
What I meant was the following :

-20% infra efficiency+25% maintenance cost
Desired infra100100
Each lvl gives1010
Modified810
Required lvls12.510
Total cost12.512.5


This is in pure cost, let's pretend both in goods and human capital.

I'm unsure on why only add more goods maintenance ? To simulate for exaemple more breakings in material ? But would't it mean somehow you would need more personel to spend time doing thoose repairs ?

Or had you something else in mind ?

Edit: Table, spaces dont count XD
 
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This is in pure cost, let's pretend both in goods and human capital.

That is your flaw. When I said cost I meant exclusively material cost, not human cost. Wages are not factored, only the goods necessary for maintenance.

I'm unsure on why only add more goods maintenance ? To simulate for exaemple more breakings in material ? But would't it mean somehow you would need more personel to spend time doing thoose repairs ?
No, that is your mistake. Your table actually shows this quite well, the number of people working on a building is based on the building level, thus the second column shows you need less people (less levels) to achieve the desired infrastructure, even if the other cost is the same (though really it is cheaper in that example, due to wages).
 
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I think you're mistaken about how market access and infrastructure works. Infrastructure isn't connection between specific provinces, it represents connection to *every* state in the market. In that sense you're not building railways between two States, you're building railways in one State to connect it in every direction.
 
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I know the state-based system isn't the ideal situation, but it can work with enough finesse. And by finesse, I mean adding states on a case-by-case basis to resolve inconsistencies and strange situations such as this one. If modders in HOI4 can do it, Paradox can do it too.

Perhaps they can split Lombardy into two states, Alpine Lombardy and "Lombardy," and only apply the modifier to the alpine state.
 
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State of italian railways in 1861, notice how they're positioned right under the alps, because why would they go through them and "suffer infrascture penalties"?
Because they still need to connect all the farms, mines and other things that are not on the nice low route?
 
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Couldn't you have the infrastructure maluses apply to market access between states instead of inside them? There's pathfinding between states and market capitals already, so it could reasonably exist within the design of the game. Then you'd be able to give Lombardy a -x% malus when the path to the market capital goes between Lombardy and Switzerland.

Admittedly it multiply the calculations during pathfinding to the market capital, so it could be a bit of a performance detriment.
 
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Because they still need to connect all the farms, mines and other things that are not on the nice low route?
The alps are scarcely populated when compared to the surrounding plain regions. Anyway most of the population and the economic activities in the area are and were concentrated in the valleys, which are serviced just fine by the local infrastructure. Just take a look at a satellite image of alpine arc by night, you will understand at a glance.
Still, no one is talking about how the "Austria" state does not have the modifier (If I saw it right) while being much more deserving of it, Devs just have to think this better through while it is still a WIP.
Trade between Lombardy and the rest of Italy was much more important than trade passing directly through the alpine arc. Lombardy Is near Europe's heartland (Alps or not) and can be served by the strategic ports and land passages in Liguria and Venice/high Adriatic.
To sum it up: Lombardy is a perfect strategic location to build your infrastructure and industry, giving it infrastructure penalties makes no sense.


I did not want to make this discussion specifically about Lombardy, some regions' geography is heterogeneous or peculiar, here lies the problem.
 
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I did not want to make this discussion specifically about Lombardy, some regions' geography is heterogeneous or peculiar, here lies the problem.
And ultimately this is all about appropriate level of abstraction in a game.

Abstraction is always necessary in a game, otherwise you create complexity that is impossible to code and makes basically no difference in the game.
Too much abstraction and people complain it is inaccurate.

Its interesting with PDS games, which have very high complexity and low abstraction compared to other games, that fans complain so much about having too much abstraction. People don't complain about abstraction in chess, or Risk (or even Civ or Xcom) because they know it is a game first and foremost. That often get forgotten in the more complex PDS games.

The reality is the terrain abstraction doesn't matter for Lombardy as it will pale into game insignificance compared to other starting bonuses that Lombardy will receive.

Could it be made more precise? Sure, anything can
Maybe Lombardy could be made plains. Easy, but then you 'lose' the Alps.
Maybe a plains/mountains hybrid terrain could be introduced. Easy, but a bit confusing for players and low priority surely?
Maybe the alps could be made their own state. Sure, but then you have to do it for all sorts of other areas and you end up with too many states and too much micromanagement.
Maybe an entirely new and more complicated system could be developed. Perhaps, but we'll be waiting another year for it.

Maybe we just accept the abstraction as part of a game.

The answer is going to be different for different folks depending on whether they want more simulation or more game.
 
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And ultimately this is all about appropriate level of abstraction in a game.

Abstraction is always necessary in a game, otherwise you create complexity that is impossible to code and makes basically no difference in the game.
Too much abstraction and people complain it is inaccurate.

Its interesting with PDS games, which have very high complexity and low abstraction compared to other games, that fans complain so much about having too much abstraction. People don't complain about abstraction in chess, or Risk (or even Civ or Xcom) because they know it is a game first and foremost. That often get forgotten in the more complex PDS games.

The reality is the terrain abstraction doesn't matter for Lombardy as it will pale into game insignificance compared to other starting bonuses that Lombardy will receive.

Could it be made more precise? Sure, anything can
Maybe Lombardy could be made plains. Easy, but then you 'lose' the Alps.
Maybe a plains/mountains hybrid terrain could be introduced. Easy, but a bit confusing for players and low priority surely?
Maybe the alps could be made their own state. Sure, but then you have to do it for all sorts of other areas and you end up with too many states and too much micromanagement.
Maybe an entirely new and more complicated system could be developed. Perhaps, but we'll be waiting another year for it.

Maybe we just accept the abstraction as part of a game.

The answer is going to be different for different folks depending on whether they want more simulation or more game.
It should not be THAT hard to at least get the most strategic and famous regions right tho, no? And no, the alps way up north are not a problem for the Milan Metropolitan area, which is what really matters. 40ish% of the territory is mountainous (not just high peaks), more than 50% is plain. Then why giving the region an alpine debuff? Why leaving the plains out?
And again, why not Austria too? What are they simulating? Simply, this is a matter of map crafting and there must be some wrong thought process behind this.
More than simulation this is about research.

A brazilian district in the middle of the amazon forest? Since it is 90% or more covered by rainforest a state wide debuff would seem reasonable to me.
 
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Theslain

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Personally I don't think that state based modifiers are the problem . The problem is that the modifier is impacting state region infrastructure that goes everywhere whereas it should only impact transalpine infrastructure. In my opinion the solution would be to give a malus to all infrastructure that connects Lombardy and Switzerland rather than all infrastructure in Lombardy.
 
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kuba_mar

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The problem is that the modifier is impacting state region infrastructure that goes everywhere whereas it should only impact transalpine infrastructure. In my opinion the solution would be to give a malus to all infrastructure that connects Lombardy and Switzerland rather than all infrastructure in Lombardy.
Thing is infrastructure isnt just that, its a state wide thing, youre not just connecting the state to other states or a city to a city but also stuff within the state which includes the stuff in the mountains, and because its in the mountains is a bit harder to connect you have the modifier to represent that.

Sure you could probably have a system where its dynamic and based on where the buildings would be and where resources are being transported but then you also need to change existing systems to accommodate that, make it something the player can see and understand, it just seems like a lot of effort and complexity for something minor like this. The solution they have is not perfect but its not bad either, "don't let perfect be the enemy of good"
 
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Spartakusbund

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It’s tricky, because at the start of the game when Lombardy is controlled by Austria it absolutely should get a malus since the Alps are in the way. Creating a system that can tell whether the mountain range in question is going to be an impediment to the flow of trade or not might be doable. If it isn’t, it might be a good idea to change the malus to a flat deduction.
 
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Baneslave

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Personally I don't think that state based modifiers are the problem . The problem is that the modifier is impacting state region infrastructure that goes everywhere whereas it should only impact transalpine infrastructure. In my opinion the solution would be to give a malus to all infrastructure that connects Lombardy and Switzerland rather than all infrastructure in Lombardy.
Giving more Infrastructure consumption to Buildings that are deemed to be more in mountains would work too. So Mines, Logging and (on some level?) Farming would require more.
 
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Lord Canterbury

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It should not be THAT hard to at least get the most strategic and famous regions right tho, no?
What do you mean "right"

Current version is "wrong" for plains... but..
Make it plains is "wrong" for the alps
Make it hybrid is half "wrong" for both plains and alps
Splitting alps and plains is "wrong" for state balance
Make a more complicated system is "wrong" for launch date

Its a game. If you look at a level of detail that is more granular than the level of abstraction chosen by the designers, something must always be "wrong"... and if you want less abstraction (more complexity) than Vicky 3, then I'm afraid I don't think that game exists.
 
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