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grisamentum

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No, order of operations doesn't matter. This is how multiplication works.

You are seeing that 5% discipline doesn't technically reduce casualties by exactly 5%, nothing more.

No, unlike Discipline, it actually accelerates more. The power of Discipline is actually decreased more by -% damage taken the more one has. It's exponentially more impactful the more you get.

Take that same example as above:

"If the enemy has +10% discipline and I have -10% damage received, the pips aren't going to be multiplied by 1, they'll be multiplied by .99. But adding 5% discipline doesn't put them at 1.049%, it puts them at 1.035% because it's 1 * 1.15 * .9.

Let's extend it another -5% damage received, for -15%. Now the casualties will be 1 * 1.15 * 0.85, or .9775. It's dropped way more than 5%, it's dropped almost 6%. Let's keep going.

Heck, let's say we're Prussia in the AoR and we have a fully drilled regiment. I have -45% fire damage taken, you have (1) 10% discipline and then (2) 15% discipline. (You can actually go higher than -45% but for our purposes this is fine).

(1) 1 * 1.1 * .55 = 0.605 overall multiplier to pips
(2) 1 * 1.15 * .55 = 0.6325 overall multiplier to pips

So the +5% discipline there had added 2.75% to casualties. It's not about it being "exactly" 5%, it's that the impact of the discipline is itself being reduced by the -% damage taken modifier.

The core problem is that -damage taken doesn't win you battles.
No one thing wins you a battles. Of course both sides needs discipline, morale, filled combat width, etc. But -% damage taken is the single most impactful modifier because it is the only one that scales higher in effectiveness the more you have.

It's like +x adm/month vs Admin Efficiency. Anyone who plays Paradox games should understand the value of a -% modifiers vs a +% modifier. They are radically different in impact.
 

Less2

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Yes. This is how math actually works. Order of operations does not matter for a formula involving two factors multiplied. I'm not even going to go through your math because it's obviously wrong if it disagrees with basic math principles everyone should know from primary school.

No one thing wins you a battles. Of course both sides needs discipline, morale, filled combat width, etc. But -% damage taken is the single most impactful modifier because it is the only one that scales higher in effectiveness the more you have.
By this logic -maintenance cost is also the single most impactful modifier because it also scales higher in effectiveness the more you have. Furthermore unlike -damage received you can actually stack it pretty dang high in a normal game, around -65% is pretty easily attainable with -80% or more for specific tags.

The problem with -damage taken is that it both matters virtually zilch for battles (because it does nothing to morale and to help you win battles) and you also can't stack it high enough for the scaling to start mattering outside of very specific meme runs. And again, let me repeat: DRILLING WEARS OFF AFTER A SINGLE BATTLE OR TWO OR JUST A BIT OF SIEGEING, PLUS EVERYONE CAN DRILL, ALL YOU ARE GETTING IS A MINORLY FASTER DRILLING. At best this decision gives you -2.9% damage received for a single battle. In practice it's probably more like -0.5% on average across a war for a player who drills a lot. Is -0.5% damage received worth +15% maintenance cost? Everyone reasonable know it isn't. I'm not even taking into consideration the fact that plenty of players will say that if you are playing well then you shouldn't be drilling your armies anyway.
 
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grisamentum

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Yes. This is how math actually works. Order of operations does not matter for a formula involving two factors multiplied. I'm not even going to go through your math because it's obviously wrong if it disagrees with basic math principles everyone should know from primary school.
Ok, you're right that, "order of operations doesn't matter when both are multipliers," which is what you said. I misspoke when I disagreed that "it matters"; but as was pointed out later, -% damage received isn't a multiplier, like discipline or IAC. It's a reduction of the entire casualty formula, including all the multipliers like discipline, IAC, pips, +%damage dealt, etc.

No, the order of operations doesn't matter in multiplication. What matters is that you are not multiplying the same things together. If you are multiplying X * Y * Z, then yes, all multipliers are equal weight. But this is not X * Y * Z, it is X * Y * (1 - Z), which means that whatever is going on with Z is going to act differently than X or Y.

By this logic -maintenance cost is also the single most impactful modifier because it also scales higher in effectiveness the more you have. Furthermore unlike -damage received you can actually stack it pretty dang high in a normal game, around -65% is pretty easily attainable with -80% or more for specific tags.

Yes!! Exactly! That is actually on the right track. -% maintenance cost IS really good. But there are two issues, that don't exist with -% damage taken or Admin Efficiency or -%diplo annexation cost.

1) You have other limits. A) Force Limit. Even at very very high discounts of maintenance costs, exceeding the force limit quickly increases the maintenance cost back up to unsustainable levels, so you can have a much bigger army, but you can't have an army that's exponentially bigger. B) Manpower / merc companies are limited anyway, so you can't just have an arbitrarily large army.

2) So you saved some money. Great? It's a money discount, which means it gets you more money, which is a useful thing, but which is ultimately only as useful as things you can spend money on. Meanwhile, not losing troops in phase 1 of a battle means you do more damage in the following phase of the battle, which means the enemy does less damage in the following phase, which means you do more damage in the next phase.... etc.

The problem with -damage taken is that it both matters virtually zilch for battles (because it does nothing to morale and to help you win battles) and you also can't stack it high enough for the scaling to start mattering outside of very specific meme runs.

"The food is awful! And the portions are so small!" Yeah, you can't stack it as high as would be truly broken, but it can certainly be high enough to be very very impactful. But this isn't just about meme runs like Shia Spain in Age of Reformation or theocratic revolutionary Zoroastrian Germany in AoR. It directly impacts your ability to fight all parts of the game and impacts how we should be weighting things like Divine ideas or national ideas.

Saying it doesn't help win battles is just ignorance of the casualty/damage formula again. If you don't take as many casualties in Phase 1, you do more damage in Phase 2, including morale damage. This persists across rounds and snowballs, so it absolutely helps you win battles. For example, if you a unit takes 200 casualties, it does only 80% of its normal damage. But if it's only taken 100 casualties, it does 90% of its normal damage. One of the many multipliers for determining morale damage and strength damage does is (strength / 1000), so taking fewer casualties in one round directly results in more damage the next.

I mean, what's next, tactics modifiers from tech don't help you win battles? Horde +% shock damage on flat doesn't help win battles because it's to strength casualties, not morale casualties? These things all help.

And again, let me repeat: DRILLING WEARS OFF AFTER A SINGLE BATTLE OR TWO OR JUST A BIT OF SIEGEING, PLUS EVERYONE CAN DRILL, ALL YOU ARE GETTING IS A MINORLY FASTER DRILLING. At best this decision gives you -2.9% damage received for a single battle. In practice it's probably more like -0.5% on average across a war for a player who drills a lot. Is -0.5% damage received worth +15% maintenance cost? Everyone reasonable know it isn't. I'm not even taking into consideration the fact that plenty of players will say that if you are playing well then you shouldn't be drilling your armies anyway.

Honestly you need to update your sensibilities from like, 1.28 or so. Drill loss is majorly mitigated by professionalism now. It lasts way longer than what you're describing. (And it's based on casualties, so taking fewer casualties = less drill loss...). Morale is not the single-most important modifier in EU4 combat anymore. Yes, yes, the devs don't like how things are working, but this is how the game is right now. Then again, we're all about to get thrown back into a period of figuring out the new combat meta this week, so it's basically all moot anyway.
 
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Less2

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Saying it doesn't help win battles is just ignorance of the casualty/damage formula again. If you don't take as many casualties in Phase 1, you do more damage in Phase 2, including morale damage. This persists across rounds and snowballs, so it absolutely helps you win battles. For example, if you a unit takes 200 casualties, it does only 80% of its normal damage. But if it's only taken 100 casualties, it does 90% of its normal damage. One of the many multipliers for determining morale damage and strength damage does is (strength / 1000), so taking fewer casualties in one round directly results in more damage the next.
It doesn't work except to a very, very minimal advantage. If you think otherwise come back with actual tested numbers, not speculation. And remember that when you test your numbers that you are testing show the advantage of a maximum of -2.8% damage received from state firearm regiments, not -25% or whatever fantasy number you want to invent.

I mean, what's next, tactics modifiers from tech don't help you win battles? Horde +% shock damage on flat doesn't help win battles because it's to strength casualties, not morale casualties? These things all help.
Tactics affects morale damage. Horde damage bonus I am 95% sure also does morale damage.

Honestly you need to update your sensibilities from like, 1.28 or so. Drill loss is majorly mitigated by professionalism now. It lasts way longer than what you're describing. (And it's based on casualties, so taking fewer casualties = less drill loss...). Morale is not the single-most important modifier in EU4 combat anymore. Yes, yes, the devs don't like how things are working, but this is how the game is right now. Then again, we're all about to get thrown back into a period of figuring out the new combat meta this week, so it's basically all moot anyway
No. Morale is still the most important measure for winning battles (and also for avoiding the AI attacking you which is arguably more important in SP), only being overcome by other factors due to diminishing returns from stacking it so high. Nothing has changed about morale's importance except that stackwiping is harder. For every other instance morale is just as important as before. The actual mechanics are the same, the formulas are the same.