Stat Effects

[Duuk]

In the Byzantium thread, we kicked over an interesting discussion about what effects stats should have on the game. I'd like to make this a seperate discussion and see if everyone agrees with me or thinks I'm a blithering idiot.

Martial

The martial stat should increase (or decrease for low stat) the recruitment rate. It should also increase and decrease the size of armies in the demense of the ruler. Brilliant Strategists should receive a large recruitment speed increase while knowledgable tacticians should receive the size-of-army increase. Tough Soldiers should receive a small bonus to each. Misguided Warriors should receive a penalty to both.

Martial should also be significantly impaired by the traits: "leper", "wounded"

Diplomacy

This stat effects are already readily apparant.

Intrigue

I love the idea of intrigue affecting demense size allowance. I also think there should be an event serious of vassal plotting affecting people with low effective intrigue and a small series of events of loyalty boosts for high intrigue lieges.

Illusive Shadow should receive a loyalty bonus to their vassals, Grey Imminence should have a reduced chance of vassal intrigue events, naive wirepuller should have an increased chance of intrigue events, intricate webweaver should have an increased chance of BOTH intrigue events and a loyalty boost to vassals.

Stewardship

Remove demense bonus from stewardship. Stewardship would then affect ONLY income derived from provinces, which makes excellent sense. This reduces the effects of stewardship, which is a positive since, in-game, you should (currently) breed your children for either inheritance of other stuff or stewardship to the exclusion of everything else. By 1453 your line should average 22 stewardship and 0, 0, 0 in everything else.

Income should be affected by fortune builder/midas touched and negatively impacted by hole-in-pocket.


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Comments and thoughts?

 

[Grell74]

I agree that martial should effect recruitment, currently the best stat to have more troops is stewardship which increases the wealth of the province and troop amount. Stewarship could do with a bit of toning down and martial intrigue be made a bit more useful.

 

[LordLeto]

The more I think about it the more these changes would make sense. Though it make require more intensive bride searches for some players.

 

[Duuk]

Am I the only person in the world that searches for a bride based on what claims she'll give me when her dad dies or what my kids will inherit to add to my lands?

I feel like such a sap!

 

[Duuk]

I agree that martial should effect recruitment, currently the best stat to have more troops is stewardship which increases the wealth of the province and troop amount. Stewarship could do with a bit of toning down and martial intrigue be made a bit more useful.

I also think army base size should be determined by province BASE income + techs/buildings with no stewardship or demense bonus/penalties applied to it.

 

[LordLeto]

Am I the only person in the world that searches for a bride based on what claims she'll give me when her dad dies or what my kids will inherit to add to my lands?

You fool!

I sometimes try to jocky for position for a kingly title, but I rarly get the chance(damn wives they find are freaking baby machines). Failing that I go for good 'ol bread and butter stats.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Am I the only person in the world that searches for a bride based on what claims she'll give me when her dad dies or what my kids will inherit to add to my lands?

I feel like such a sap!

Heh...i do as well, but generally i go with direct inheritance, rather than claims.

 

[Spruce]

DUUK,

great post. I also find that martial is underpowered, intrigue severly underpowered and stewardship overpowered.

So basicly I agree.

I'll give it a tought and make a proposal.

 

[total]

Duuk, I totally agree with you !

 

[von Murrin]

Excellent ideas.



Is there really anything more to add?

 

[Spruce]

martial =
- recruitment modifer,
- if the subject has a martial education - he gets bonusses or events (like Duke proposes). However I would not give more penalties to misguided warriors,

intrigue =
- intrigue skill,
- "larger" demesne size bonus if the subject has ecclesiastical education. The biggest demesne bonus should come for the illusive shadow. I wouldn't give the naive wirepuller a penalty.

stewardship =
- income modifier,
- "small" demesne size bonus if the subject has a court education depending on the level he obtained. However = "a hole in the pocket" should NOT give a demesne penalty. So a proven accountant gets the smallest demesne size bonus.

Basicly I would NOT give extra penalties to subjects NOT succeeding in their educational path. I see it more like = stats are the potential and educational traits are more like output. If you fail your education, it should penalise the subject but not to an unreasonable level,

I'm in favour of giving intrigue traits a big demesne size bonus. But stewardship traits should also give a demesne size bonus.

So a midas touched will govern a somewhat bigger fief with lots of income. An illusive shadow will govern a super big fief - with the income depending from his stewardship skills.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

martial =
- recruitment modifer,
- if the subject has a martial education - he gets bonusses or events (like Duke proposes). However I would not give more penalties to misguided warriors,

intrigue =
- intrigue skill,
- "larger" demesne size bonus if the subject has ecclesiastical education. The biggest demesne bonus should come for the illusive shadow. I wouldn't give the naive wirepuller a penalty.

stewardship =
- income modifier,
- "small" demesne size bonus if the subject has a court education depending on the level he obtained. However = "a hole in the pocket" should NOT give a demesne penalty. So a proven accountant gets the smallest demesne size bonus.

Basicly I would NOT give extra penalties to subjects NOT succeeding in their educational path. I see it more like = stats are the potential and educational traits are more like output. If you fail your education, it should penalise the subject but not to an unreasonable level,

I'm in favour of giving intrigue traits a big demesne size bonus. But stewardship traits should also give a demesne size bonus.

So a midas touched will govern a somewhat bigger fief with lots of income. An illusive shadow will govern a super big fief - with the income depending from his stewardship skills.

Well if we're using education traits as well...
Martial cleric should increase the recruitment rate. Any other finished ecclectical education path should get minor increases overall for everything but recruitment, especially in diplomatic and in...well maybe not a detatched priest, but the two theologians should get minor increases overall and the martial cleric would get some to recruitment and diplomatic efforts.

 

[unmerged(27106)]

I feel the size of an army one can build should still be tied to Stewardship and Province income and not to Martial. It makes sense that a skillful warrior would be able to better train new soldiers- he understands warfare and how to get through to other prospective warriors. The size of an army, however, is more of a management/logistics question, which would have more to do with your ability to manage economic and logistical matters rather than how good you are at killing things and capturing castles. It also makes sense that a ruler who is more successful in increasing the ammount of food a province can grow would be able to field a larger army than his less managerially-talented father. Plus, you don't want to go too far and nerf Stewardship.

Secondly, Education traits already affect stats. A poor education stat does more harm than good to educational traits. I don't think you need to add any additional negatives to having recieved a poor education- it's enough of a penalty as it is. I believe (though I'm not certain) that the type of education you recieve influences the speed of techs you can research. If it isn't, then it should. If you were going to have any area where the education traits have a pronounced influence, it should be here. Even then, someone with a "misguided warrior" trait should have a slight advantage over a "grey eminence" in successfully researching military technologies, if only because he cares more about military matters by evinced by his education.

Finally, I hunt for brides depending on my status. As a Count, I'm happy just inheriting claims, but will eagerly pounce on any marriage that provides even a slight advantage. When I move up to Duke, I tend to look for direct inheritances more. If I make it to King, the stats of a girl take on more importance than potential inheritance gains.

 

[unmerged(2037)]

I like the proposed changes. Especialy the shift from STE to MAR would be great as it would create balance among different stats.

Btw. The progress of beta patches looks promising. Perhaps the time has come to install CK once again!

 

[unmerged(6777)]

Hold on to your hats on Friday.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Is it too late for a request on this front???

I thought if possible diplomacy should affect the rate of increase in province population loyalty if its really high....

of cousre i also think their level of loyalty increase/decrease should be based on their overall power as well...but that's another point.

 

[Spruce]

the longer I think of it, the more I favour giving the "midas touched" category small bonuses to both demesne size, army recruitment speed. The "illusive shadow" category should get big demesne size bonuses. The "brilliant strategist" category should get big bonuses towards army recruitment. The "grey eminence" class should get no bonuses. The "mastermind theologian" should get not bonuses.

all "successfull" traits (so not the amateurisch pettifogger, etc.) should yield special events. The events for the grey eminence and mastermind theologian should be somewhat more powerfull to balance their lack of special bonuses. Perhaps the grey eminence category can improve reputation by special events. Perhaps the mastermind theologian class can gain piety by special event.

So you have education paths, then you have the result of the education, you have special bonusses and special events...

 

[unmerged(16588)]

maybe have the overall size of the army tied to stewardship still, but perhaps to a lesser extent, and have martial skill add an additional size bonus as well as increase recruitment SPEED, i.e., a slight increase in the percentage of the troop maximum which is recruited every month?

 

[unmerged(2456)]

These are changes that imo should be done:
martial:
Add/Change to:
Army Reruitment Speed
Max Army Size
diplomacy:
Add/Change to:
Affect provincal power-group loyalties
intrigue:
Add/Change to:
Affect Demesne Bonus
Affect Length of Time to keep a claim*
stewardship:
Remove/Change from:
Affects on max army size and demense bonus should be reduced
Affects on recruitment speed should be removed

* This is assuming MrT gets Johan to do something to get rid of claims that isn't rather arbitrary.

 

[unmerged(27106)]

These are changes that imo should be done:
martial:
Add/Change to:
Army Reruitment Speed
Max Army Size
diplomacy:
Add/Change to:
Affect provincal power-group loyalties
intrigue:
Add/Change to:
Affect Demesne Bonus
Affect Length of Time to keep a claim*
stewardship:
Remove/Change from:
Affects on max army size and demense bonus should be reduced
Affects on recruitment speed should be removed

The problem I have with removing army size form Stewardship is that I think each stat should contribute, in some way, to a state's military. Warfare is, arguably perhaps, the centerpiece of the game, so each Stat should contribute something to it.

Allowing Military ability to affect recruitment speed as well as the actual performance in the field, allowing Diplomacy to enable a ruler to more efficiently (and safely) utilize the troops of his vassals, allowing Intrigue to enable a ruler to hold onto more land and thus have more places to call up soldiers from, and allowing Stewardship to influence the size of the army a ruler can call up from each province makes each stat valuable to protecting and expanding a family's lands. Taking army size away from Stewardship, aside from it not making sense (imho) from a RP perspective, threatens to swing the game balance pendulum past the point of equanimity and towards the nerfing of the Stewardship trait.

I think weakening Stewardship is a good idea. Crippling it is not.