I thought we were discussing the game play of the battle of the atlantic rt?
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You know what veld, the reason I made some historical refrences about the battle of the atlantic is the same reason I thought Wildcat started this thread. The fact that none of the HOi games, including DH, DO NOT PROPERLY REPRESENT REALITY! It would've been nice to have gotten a comment from a dev about how paradox is working on improving this aspect of game play. Not a snide comment like yours that we are off topic.
Thx
Thx
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First and most important logisticly-wise is the need for convoys to be the ones to actually transport all resources. Including the regular trades. I can sink off all british convoys and then I load up as UK and see USA sending them like 40 rares for free. 100% trade efficency which I cannot lower. I've got over 40 Subs and 12 CV roaming on the Celtic Sea now. USA is neutral.
Secondly I vote for resource for money trade only, while the buyer pays with money which is just "wired" all the resources he buys stay is some kind of pool in sellers capital/port. And the buyer is forced to transport from this pool by regular SINKABLE convoys.
If you want USA convoys to transport resources to UK they also need to be sinkable. Declaring unlimited submarine warfare - sinking everythink in designated seazones without DOWing neutrals, for beligerence for germany and boosting interventioning in neutrals.
Second thing is some kind of prestige hits. If british loose a carrier to a submarine (HMS Courageous) in first weeks of war there's bound to be some dissent. If the democratic goverment is unable to maintian air superiority over britain and the IC gets destroyed to 1/3 there's bound to be some dissent, when it looses its naval power status - same.
Whe it cannot bring resources (rares) for the industry because all convoy gets destroyed - same.
People elected them to provide savety which they cant right?
Secondly I vote for resource for money trade only, while the buyer pays with money which is just "wired" all the resources he buys stay is some kind of pool in sellers capital/port. And the buyer is forced to transport from this pool by regular SINKABLE convoys.
If you want USA convoys to transport resources to UK they also need to be sinkable. Declaring unlimited submarine warfare - sinking everythink in designated seazones without DOWing neutrals, for beligerence for germany and boosting interventioning in neutrals.
Second thing is some kind of prestige hits. If british loose a carrier to a submarine (HMS Courageous) in first weeks of war there's bound to be some dissent. If the democratic goverment is unable to maintian air superiority over britain and the IC gets destroyed to 1/3 there's bound to be some dissent, when it looses its naval power status - same.
Whe it cannot bring resources (rares) for the industry because all convoy gets destroyed - same.
People elected them to provide savety which they cant right?
If you don't agree with a post made by a moderator, you need to contact him through PM. Not post it on the public forum. See the forum-rules.
Furthermore I am not a developer and I am not linked to either the developers of Darkest Hour or Paradox directly. As a moderator my main task is to moderate the forums, not to answer questions directed to the developers.
Wildcat_PL
I've got over 40 Subs and 12 CV roaming on the Celtic Sea now.
When did you start production of this armada? Wt model level for both?
I've got over 40 Subs and 12 CV roaming on the Celtic Sea now.
When did you start production of this armada? Wt model level for both?
You guys likely don't know, but this question was answered a long time ago by Blue Emu in a thread titled "are submarines useless" IIRC. Search it, it was a very popular thread and it would still apply here.
It's really easy to build carriers. They are 1938 and 1940 model, it's really easy to build them. it's harder to keep up with techs as Germany has no carrier_tactics techteam.
As of "Are submarines useless" - I've read that and enjoyed it. Problem is I wish some kind of improvement in DH. Perhaps some persistant event to give dissent if Uk is unable to keep up the fleet, convoys or rares stockpile.
Maybe some other improvement. Perhaps a statement from Devs. But what I would like most is Community working on suggestions for Devs.
As of "Are submarines useless" - I've read that and enjoyed it. Problem is I wish some kind of improvement in DH. Perhaps some persistant event to give dissent if Uk is unable to keep up the fleet, convoys or rares stockpile.
Maybe some other improvement. Perhaps a statement from Devs. But what I would like most is Community working on suggestions for Devs.
Submarine warfare has seen tons of revisions since Blue Emu made his thread. I think back then the AI didn't even know how to do anti-submarine patrols, or they didn't use the mission or something.
In any case, the UK should surrender if it cannot get supplies from overseas, or at least take massive dissent hits. There has to be a reason for the war in the Atlantic, or we'll just get the current situation where people ignore the German navy entirely to concentrate on blitzing Russia as fast as possible.
If the USA is transporting supplies to the UK on American ships flying the American flag, then for Germany to sink them would be the equivalent of declaring war. In game, if you don't want a neutral country shipping resources to your enemies, you have to declare war on them. But then you have to deal with their navy...
While true, the OP stated that he had already defeated the RN. Additionally, the wolfpack scenario for starving England(and Japan for that matter) did work in DH, at least in early pre-release versions. I am just now getting back into the game and will try to determine how well it works in the newer versions.
I get the feeling we're going round in circles. I am talking about a scenario in which Germany is at war with the US and is sinking a large quantity of their supplies. Most small nations probably wouldn't dare shipping stuff to the UK if Germany was gung-ho enough about their blockade.
In this scenario, the UK should surrender or get huge dissent hits.
If USA is not at war there are no "military" convoys, transporting units and supplies for them to UK. There are however convoys that bring industry-fueling materials, coal, oil, different kinds of metals, chemicals, rubber etc. Now in my understanding these INCOMING resources should be transported by british SINKABLE convoys.
Perhaps higher interventionism of USA or any other country should be taken into consideration if given country is willing to trade with country at war, and perhaps if it decides that their defenceless ships should go into warzone, with or without british escorts, while neutral. And accept the fact that if they go into warzone they can be sunk. Kind of leasing ships to other country, perhaps for montly payment. This would be an interesting option for norwegian and dutch merchant marine which was just as big as british but is not usefull in the game.
In other words what I primarily want is "AoD style" SINKABLE convoys that transport materials from trade deals. Not just lowering the trade efficency by naval presence. The actual efficency should be the amount of convoys that manage to run trough the blockade.
This would truly make the battle of atlantic neccesary to fuel the industry, because I want the mechanism:
ZERO convoys -> zero incoming metarials - >zero industry after stockiples are gone -> zero supplies, repairs, new units, upgrades
and in effect of zero supplies and zero consumer goods demand -> huge dissent and surrender as an effect.
Oh and zero fuel -> zero air superiority
In HOI, if you try to starve the UK the only thing that will happend is that you, ironically, will starve India 
A major design flaw people have been bragging about for years
A major design flaw people have been bragging about for years
Exactly. DH fixed India thing by making it a puppet, though.In HOI, if you try to starve the UK the only thing that will happend is that you, ironically, will starve India
A major design flaw people have been bragging about for years
Still, strategic bombing is far, far more effective at "starving" your enemy than convoy warfare in DH. By reducing the enemy IC to low levels, their TC becomes horrendously low and their ESE drops everywhere. In fact, it's even overpowered. I could wreck the Chinese industry with ONE (!!!) STRAT and the British can bombed into oblivion with 3-4 STRATs within months easily.
DH fixed the limitless stockpiles, but it didn't fix the convoy warfare model. As long as you have some convoys in "reserve", sinking them has no effect, because the enemy doesn't lose any resources at all. Well, there is this whole "efficiency" thing, but it works in strange ways sometimes and is rarely a problem.
IRL if you sank a transport, then the cargo was gone. In such case it didn't matter whether you used one sub to do this or your whole surface fleet. It didn't matter whether you had naval supremacy or whether it was just an accident. If the transport sank with its cargo, then it was a direct loss for the enemy. This also caused delays in delivery, because new transport ships had to be sent to the destination port. HOI games are very, very poor at representing things like this.
Nation-specific events would be just a half-measure and would only affect selected countries. We need changes in the game mechanics. Sinking convoys should cause the stuff that they were transporting to disappear. Moreover, recently added transports shouldn't "refill" convoy efficiency immediately - there should be a delay based on distance between port of origin and port of destination. Therefore, if there were 10 transports in a convoy and 4 of them were sunk, then 40% of stuff should disappear (because the cargo is lost) and it shouldn't be possible to "reinforce" the convoy for some time. In some cases this could cause convoys to be temporarily shut down if enough transports were sunk.
Additionally, supplies should be produced locally by IC, because it doesn't make sense to transport them from London if enough can be produced in a given area.
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A little off topic but now that I think about it strategic bombing might be a little OP. The first thing I do in all my games as USSR is strat bomb Romania once the war starts. With my two starting STR squadrons I can keep Romania's base IC down from about 35 to 7. As a result somewhere around 40 axis divisions become very poor/useless...Seems almost too effective.
If you kill all of their convoys, will British troops on overseas British territories be supplied from India or South Africa (provided they have a land route)? It's may '41 in my latest Germany game and I've whittled them down to about 200; my sub fleet was about 50 units at its peak, now I think 35. They're getting annoyingly good at shwacking my subs, but I have 10 serials of them, plus one of heavies.
[quote = Cybvep]Additionally, supplies should be produced locally by IC, because it doesn't make sense to transport them from London if enough can be produced in a given area.[/quote] This is every HOI2 game modder's wet dream, but it would only make subs weaker. AOD-style convoy system is a must, especially if someone finally figures this one out.
Anyway, the convoys for trade system is what would give submarine warfare teeth. Then the Unrestricted Sub Warfare tech could enable the nation to attack neutrals' convoys bringing in stuff to their enemy, maybe via a new mission, "unrestricted convoy raiding" or smth, which would result in relations drops and an immediate trade and tech embargo if done even once. And just to be on the safe side, Sweden should be forced to embargo the Allies (and lift embargo on Germany if necessary) once Germany has captured Norway, or at least Narvik, and SOV should embargo Allies as part of Molotov-Ribbentrop, until they too come under attack.
Bogdan: I too have noticed that Romanian AI doesn't make any air units. They have one INT unit, but it's not enough and they tend to park it in France.
[quote = Cybvep]Additionally, supplies should be produced locally by IC, because it doesn't make sense to transport them from London if enough can be produced in a given area.[/quote] This is every HOI2 game modder's wet dream, but it would only make subs weaker. AOD-style convoy system is a must, especially if someone finally figures this one out.
Anyway, the convoys for trade system is what would give submarine warfare teeth. Then the Unrestricted Sub Warfare tech could enable the nation to attack neutrals' convoys bringing in stuff to their enemy, maybe via a new mission, "unrestricted convoy raiding" or smth, which would result in relations drops and an immediate trade and tech embargo if done even once. And just to be on the safe side, Sweden should be forced to embargo the Allies (and lift embargo on Germany if necessary) once Germany has captured Norway, or at least Narvik, and SOV should embargo Allies as part of Molotov-Ribbentrop, until they too come under attack.
Bogdan: I too have noticed that Romanian AI doesn't make any air units. They have one INT unit, but it's not enough and they tend to park it in France.
I forgot about using transports for regular convoys. Yes, this feature should be implemented.
Aren't supplies produced locally in AOD? I think that they are.
It's the best logistical system out of all systems present in HOI games, though
The engine is probably too old to support it.