Starting Idea Groups

[ShoGuL]

I understand your point, but can you really think of more than a couple of national ideas that would trump the advantage offered by being one unit-type ahead of an opponent? Focusing on the military should mean focusing on the military, not avoiding military ideas in order to become more advanced in that field, or vice versa. To give a more specific example, a nation that goes for the Offensive ideas (many of which enhance the skills of generals) will end up with fewer points to spend on acquiring those enhanced generals. How does that make any sense? I am quite pleased with the monarch point system overall, but this seems like an error in design. It is counterintuitive and ahistorical.

In the course of a 400-year game, Prussia will likely only be behind in tech for a brief period.. then ahead-of-time penalties and neighbor-bonus will kick in and allow them to catch up, now with superior units due to ideas.... the same with similar issues (omg I have exploration / trade ideas, now I cant keep up in naval tech)...

I think people need to sit back and see how the game plays out without jumping to conclusion on a 28-year demo... the very fact that you can almost fill out an entire idea line by focusing it in the demo tells me that the issue won't be as big as some people make it out to be.

The hard part will likely be to balance the approaches.. eg. do you want to focus purely ideas and risk being squashed by ahead-of-tech opponents, in exchange for saving points later for cheaper techs for being behind? Or just be a little behind and balance the two as you go along.

 

[Chiro]

I understand your point, but can you really think of more than a couple of national ideas that would trump the advantage offered by being one unit-type ahead of an opponent? Focusing on the military should mean focusing on the military, not avoiding military ideas in order to become more advanced in that field, or vice versa. To give a more specific example, a nation that goes for the Offensive ideas (many of which enhance the skills of generals) will end up with fewer points to spend on acquiring those enhanced generals. How does that make any sense? I am quite pleased with the monarch point system overall, but this seems like an error in design. It is counterintuitive and ahistorical.

Well, The MIL-power of a ruler is limited. If he is busy establishing institutions (or anything) that will make the millitary more efficient he can't also have full attention for his generals at the same time.

 

[unmerged(303856)]

In the course of a 400-year game, Prussia will likely only be behind in tech for a brief period.. then ahead-of-time penalties and neighbor-bonus will kick in and allow them to catch up, now with superior units due to ideas.... the same with similar issues (omg I have exploration / trade ideas, now I cant keep up in naval tech)...

I think people need to sit back and see how the game plays out without jumping to conclusion on a 28-year demo... the very fact that you can almost fill out an entire idea line by focusing it in the demo tells me that the issue won't be as big as some people make it out to be.

The hard part will likely be to balance the approaches.. eg. do you want to focus purely ideas and risk being squashed by ahead-of-tech opponents, in exchange for saving points later for cheaper techs for being behind? Or just be a little behind and balance the two as you go along.

I realize that we can't be certain of any long-term effects yet, but do you really think that the current state of things makes sense? I already gave a military example, pointing out that any military nation that takes Offensive will then be deprived of the very points that they need to make use of their improved commanders. On the Diplomatic side, you have the issue that anyone looking to colonize quickly is going to be behind in naval technology. As I said before, that is both counterintuitive and ahistorical.

 

[Chiro]

I realize that we can't be certain of any long-term effects yet, but do you really think that the current state of things makes sense? I already gave a military example, pointing out that any military nation that takes Offensive will then be deprived of the very points that they need to make use of their improved commanders. On the Diplomatic side, you have the issue that anyone looking to colonize quickly is going to be behind in naval technology. As I said before, that is both counterintuitive and ahistorical.

No, it makes sense. Specialising in colonial-ideas will make you fall behind in trade and the strength of your navy. You can however choose to not specialise and instead favour tech-levels, this will make your power equally shared between trade, naval and colonising but you will never have that advantage of specialising into the ideas will give you.

 

[unmerged(303856)]

Well, The MIL-power of a ruler is limited. If he is busy establishing institutions (or anything) that will make the millitary more efficient he can't also have full attention for his generals at the same time.

But the ruler is only 50% of the equation. Half of the monarch points do not come from the monarch, so this explanation is not satisfactory. Even if that was not the case, what you said is not true. For example, Napoleon was quite capable of establishing institutions/increasing military efficiency and paying attention to his generals.

I don't want this discussion to become too narrow in scope. I was merely using Prussian generals and tech as an example. What about my colonial example? Would you say that the Portuguese were sailing across the oceans on obsolete ships?

 

[unmerged(303856)]

No, it makes sense. Specialising in colonial-ideas will make you fall behind in trade and the strength of your navy. You can however choose to not specialise and instead favour tech-levels, this will make your power equally shared between trade, naval and colonising but you will never have that advantage of specialising into the ideas will give you.

Tech levels are too broad an area to be used this way. There are some diplomatic techs that are strongly focused on colonization, while others are mainly about trade. They cannot be equated to idea groups.

Returning to the Portuguese example makes the illogical nature of this setup obvious. The Portuguese were well-developed in all three of the areas you mentioned (trade, naval, and colonization). The current system severely hampers the player's ability to specialize, which reduces the number of strategies available.

I will reiterate that I think the monarch point system is a fantastic addition to the game, and I think its implementation has been handled well, considering how much of a change it is. However, any alteration of this scale will have flaws at first, and this is an area that I think needs to be reexamined by the developers.

 

[Chiro]

But the ruler is only 50% of the equation. Half of the monarch points do not come from the monarch, so this explanation is not satisfactory. Even if that was not the case, what you said is not true. For example, Napoleon was quite capable of establishing institutions/increasing military efficiency and paying attention to his generals.

I don't want this discussion to become too narrow in scope. I was merely using Prussian generals and tech as an example. What about my colonial example? Would you say that the Portuguese were sailing across the oceans on obsolete ships?

Napoleon was probably a 4-2-6 ruler wich means you would get enough MIL-power to do everything you want, those are rare though. The same for Portugal, thinking of Henry the Navigator as a great DIP-advisor they had enough points to do everything.
And if they don't have great rulers that means they will have to make choices (like; do I want a fleet capable of trading, colonising or fighting?)

 

[Chiro]

Tech levels are too broad an area to be used this way. There are some diplomatic techs that are strongly focused on colonization, while others are mainly about trade. They cannot be equated to idea groups.

Returning to the Portuguese example makes the illogical nature of this setup obvious. The Portuguese were well-developed in all three of the areas you mentioned (trade, naval, and colonization). The current system severely hampers the player's ability to specialize, which reduces the number of strategies available.

I will reiterate that I think the monarch point system is a fantastic addition to the game, and I think its implementation has been handled well, considering how much of a change it is. However, any alteration of this scale will have flaws at first, and this is an area that I think needs to be reexamined by the developers.

Well I agree that for full historic accuracy Paradox should give Portugal bonus-DIP-points for a certain time period. But don't forget the gameplay, an OP Portugal always ruling the seas would be kinda boring.

 

[unmerged(263664)]

People also dont want to see another bonus from ideas...national ambitions, its like double bonus on start. You can think about ideas like bout further specialization in some areas, which slows your general progress.

Another thing is that depending so much on monarch means that you cant make big plans for your game, for example you want play peacefull and colonization focus Portugal but you get few kings in a row with 0 diplomacy (little chance but rng is rng ;-) ). It would be really hard to follow your path and you will need adapt your strategy somehow.

 

[Takeo92]

Its stupid that plutocrazy is limited to countrys...


EDIT: I feel like certain country´s get certain stats more often.. for instance in beta with brandenburg, i feel like EACH king i get has good diplomacy (usually +4 or +5) and good military (usually +3-6). However, EACH KING sucks with administration..

;_;

 

[Jia Xu]

Defensive is probably for the best. We wouldn't want to see our precious Austria being bullied by the Osmans, would we?

 

[Garothian]

Cool fact: Norway is the only country in the game that can explore and colonize without having to unlock the Exploration idea group first.

Both I and the Slavs beg to differ.

http://eu4wiki.com/Unique_national_ideas#Russians

5. Siberian Frontier: +1 colonist, and auto-exploration of all territory adjacent to owned home territory.

 

[unmerged(303856)]

Well I agree that for full historic accuracy Paradox should give Portugal bonus-DIP-points for a certain time period. But don't forget the gameplay, an OP Portugal always ruling the seas would be kinda boring.

I agree, seeing the same development in every game would be boring. However, this issue affects far more than just Portugal; England, Prussia, and Portugal are all very focused nations. I am fairly certain that Venice, Genoa, the Hansa, the Dutch, and Russia are also heavily specialized, but I cannot confirm this at the moment.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

5. Siberian Frontier: +1 colonist, and auto-exploration of all territory adjacent to owned home territory.

That's not the same thing at all. It only reveals provinces adjacent to those you've already discovered or own, nor does it allow you to explore outside of existing known ocean provinces.