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Am I the only person who found it odd that almost all of Europe begins with the Defensive idea group unlocked? Many countries do not start with what would seem to be the natural choices, such as Diplomatic for Austria. Lithuania beginning with the Trade group also seems strange to me, but I do not know much about its history, so the perception may be due to ignorance on my part. England begins with Plutocratic, but I assume that is a bug, as England is not a republic.
 

Moogh

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Remember that the demo starts in 1492, while the actual game will start in 1444. Paradox added 50 years and gave everyone the first tech group so we could actually see how the various systems in the game work (it's a demo, remember? :p ). If the demo started in 1444 there's no way we could check out colonization, for instance.
 

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Remember that the demo starts in 1492, while the actual game will start in 1444. Paradox added 50 years and gave everyone the first tech group so we could actually see how the various systems in the game work (it's a demo, remember? :p ). If the demo started in 1444 there's no way we could check out colonization, for instance.

I don't see the connection between this and what I posted. Countries do have some variety in which idea group is unlocked for them, and I'm guessing that they are programmed to favor certain ideas, just as they did in EU3. My point is that almost every European country has the Defensive group, rather than, for example, England getting Naval or Austria getting Diplomatic. I also pointed out a potential bug with England having the Plutocratic group, which should be inaccessible for them.
 

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Austria has these historical_idea_groups :
found here:

europa Universalis IV Demo\common\countries\austria.txt

historical_idea_groups = {
defensive_ideas
diplomatic_ideas
offensive_ideas
religious_ideas
economic_ideas
spy_ideas
naval_ideas
quality_ideas
}

and since ausrtia has on idea Group slot unlocked due to starting admin tech it starts with defensive_ideas taken.
 

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Austria has these historical_idea_groups :
found here:

europa Universalis IV Demo\common\countries\austria.txt

historical_idea_groups = {
defensive_ideas
diplomatic_ideas
offensive_ideas
religious_ideas
economic_ideas
spy_ideas
naval_ideas
quality_ideas
}

and since ausrtia has on idea Group slot unlocked due to starting admin tech it starts with defensive_ideas taken.

Thanks for posting them. I only had access to the demo for a couple of days, and I somehow failed to realize that I could check the files during that time. I would prefer to see more variance in what idea group countries take first, but as long as they diversify over time, it's not a big deal. If you don't mind, I would be interested to see England's idea groups. I am fairly certain that I saw them with Plutocratic unlocked in the demo, which seems like a bug.

Looking over that list, it seems as if Austria will end up being a bit of a military powerhouse. Will the AI strive to take those groups regardless of the circumstances, or is it adaptable? If these choices are guaranteed, there appears to be some potential for severe point shortages of countries with heavy focuses on certain idea groups. For example, AI Brandenburg/Prussia may fall behind on Military tech, or AI England on Diplomatic tech (assuming that these countries have the idea groups that one would assume they do).
 

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here you go:

Englands ideas:


historical_idea_groups = {
plutocracy_ideas
naval_ideas
exploration_ideas
trade_ideas
economic_ideas
expansion_ideas
offensive_ideas
defensive_ideas
}

Thanks again. I can't figure out why England has Plutocratic though. Paradox has made an effort to implement more consistent rules in this game, and Plutocratic England flies in the face of that.

Does anyone have thoughts on my concern that AI-controlled, heavily specialized countries (Brandenburg/Prussia comes to mind, and England also seems to fit) will gimp themselves due to their desire to pick idea groups that are disproportionately weighted towards one monarch point pool. Will we see Prussia suffering from a lack of generals for its supreme, idea-driven army? What about England having a perpetual shortage of DMP? There is also potential for these countries to fall behind in the technology of their specialties, but I have seen that topic debated before. I realize that we can't know the answers to these questions before playing the full game, but I was wondering if anyone has considered how the combination of historical idea groups and ubiquitous monarch points could harm certain countries.
 

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I would strongly emphasize that the demo bookmark is probably constructed in such a way as to make the brief demo playtime interesting and engaging. i.e. not all the rules may be followed, because it's not a full game.

When playing for realsies, I'm certain that countries not qualifying for various ideas will not be allowed to take them.
 

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I would strongly emphasize that the demo bookmark is probably constructed in such a way as to make the brief demo playtime interesting and engaging. i.e. not all the rules may be followed, because it's not a full game.

When playing for realsies, I'm certain that countries not qualifying for various ideas will not be allowed to take them.

The only case (that I am aware of) of a country not following the rules with its idea groups is England. It doesn't make sense to suppose that England was given a different Plutocracy to make the demo more engaging, as England is not a playable country in it, and its possession of that group does not significantly alter gameplay.
 

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It totally makes sense for England to have the Plutocracy idea set, and will almost certainly be intentional.

I mean, look at the ideas:

Code:
plutocracy_ideas = {
	category = MIL

	bonus = {
		technology_cost = -0.1
	}

	trigger = {
		NOT = { government = monarchy }
		NOT = { government = noble_republic }
		NOT = { government = theocratic_government }
		NOT = { government = papal_government }
	}
	
	tradition_of_payment = {
		possible_mercenaries = 0.50
	}
	abolished_serfdom = {
		land_morale = 0.25
	}
	bill_of_rights = {
		global_revolt_risk = -1
	}
	free_merchants = {
		merchants = 1
	}
	free_subjects = {
		production_efficiency = 0.2
	}
	humanist_tolerance = {
		tolerance_heathen = 2
	}
	emancipation = {
		manpower_recovery_speed = 0.2
	}
}

Abolition of serfdom, a Bill of Rights, Humanism, general 'Protestant' bonuses to trade/production... they all seem to fit. England has a tradition of balancing monarchy with a degree of republican ethos, and its aristocracy was curtailed at the expense of the peasant and merchant classes in a way that simply didn't happen in countries like France, Austria and Russia. Hell, the exact opposite happened there.

To me, it seems fine for countries like England and Holland to get this idea set. Presumably the alternative is the Aristocracy set, which really doesn't suit them at all...
 

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It looks like most of the country have defensive as an idea.

Great..

edit: I am going to assume that Paradox still has to do the historical ideas order and this are just default orders.
 

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It totally makes sense for England to have the Plutocracy idea set, and will almost certainly be intentional.

I mean, look at the ideas:

Code:
plutocracy_ideas = {
	category = MIL

	bonus = {
		technology_cost = -0.1
	}

	trigger = {
		NOT = { government = monarchy }
		NOT = { government = noble_republic }
		NOT = { government = theocratic_government }
		NOT = { government = papal_government }
	}
	
	tradition_of_payment = {
		possible_mercenaries = 0.50
	}
	abolished_serfdom = {
		land_morale = 0.25
	}
	bill_of_rights = {
		global_revolt_risk = -1
	}
	free_merchants = {
		merchants = 1
	}
	free_subjects = {
		production_efficiency = 0.2
	}
	humanist_tolerance = {
		tolerance_heathen = 2
	}
	emancipation = {
		manpower_recovery_speed = 0.2
	}
}

Abolition of serfdom, a Bill of Rights, Humanism, general 'Protestant' bonuses to trade/production... they all seem to fit. England has a tradition of balancing monarchy with a degree of republican ethos, and its aristocracy was curtailed at the expense of the peasant and merchant classes in a way that simply didn't happen in countries like France, Austria and Russia. Hell, the exact opposite happened there.

To me, it seems fine for countries like England and Holland to get this idea set. Presumably the alternative is the Aristocracy set, which really doesn't suit them at all...

I agree that it makes sense historically. My contention is that it seems to be detrimental to the consistency and clarity that Paradox has achieved with EU4.
 

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It looks like most of the country have defensive as an idea.

Great..

edit: I am going to assume that Paradox still has to do the historical ideas order and this are just default orders.

Based on the files posted by nicolajherskind, countries already have different historical idea groups. Most of them do include the Defensive group though, and it appears to be the first choice for the vast majority of countries, which may make the early years seem slightly bland. I do fear that the new dependency on ideas for colonizers will create a rather rigid colonial procedure in which the historical idea groups will make the settlement of the New World somewhat predetermined. However, this may be a baseless concern, and it is impossible to know how things will play out until we have the full game.
 

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Cool fact: Norway is the only country in the game that can explore and colonize without having to unlock the Exploration idea group first. :p
 

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Thanks again. I can't figure out why England has Plutocratic though. Paradox has made an effort to implement more consistent rules in this game, and Plutocratic England flies in the face of that.

Does anyone have thoughts on my concern that AI-controlled, heavily specialized countries (Brandenburg/Prussia comes to mind, and England also seems to fit) will gimp themselves due to their desire to pick idea groups that are disproportionately weighted towards one monarch point pool. Will we see Prussia suffering from a lack of generals for its supreme, idea-driven army? What about England having a perpetual shortage of DMP? There is also potential for these countries to fall behind in the technology of their specialties, but I have seen that topic debated before. I realize that we can't know the answers to these questions before playing the full game, but I was wondering if anyone has considered how the combination of historical idea groups and ubiquitous monarch points could harm certain countries.

Nope. Because I don't think people understand things correctly. All they see is "EEEEK my tech is lower because I spent my point in NIs ergo I am falling behind." Its an incorrect conclusion. Ability in a field is not solely limited to tech, Tech + national ideas = you ability in a given field. Prussia will have generals and maybe a lower tech but she will still have the most advanced army because of all her land power NIs. NIs are innovations in a given field alone the same vein as technology.

Yes Prussia will likely not be able to use the supress harshly options for rebels and liberally as other nations but that wont hurt Prussia because when a rebel forms Prussia's army will crush it like a bug.
 

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Nope. Because I don't think people understand things correctly. All they see is "EEEEK my tech is lower because I spent my point in NIs ergo I am falling behind." Its an incorrect conclusion. Ability in a field is not solely limited to tech, Tech + national ideas = you ability in a given field. Prussia will have generals and maybe a lower tech but she will still have the most advanced army because of all her land power NIs. NIs are innovations in a given field alone the same vein as technology.

Yes Prussia will likely not be able to use the supress harshly options for rebels and liberally as other nations but that wont hurt Prussia because when a rebel forms Prussia's army will crush it like a bug.

I understand your point, but can you really think of more than a couple of national ideas that would trump the advantage offered by being one unit-type ahead of an opponent? Focusing on the military should mean focusing on the military, not avoiding military ideas in order to become more advanced in that field, or vice versa. To give a more specific example, a nation that goes for the Offensive ideas (many of which enhance the skills of generals) will end up with fewer points to spend on acquiring those enhanced generals. How does that make any sense? I am quite pleased with the monarch point system overall, but this seems like an error in design. It is counterintuitive and ahistorical.