Starfire Historical Mod

[unmerged(12303)]

@Fiendix:

When I loaded up the game before Barbarossa, it said 900 IC for you ... hmm.

hmm i never had 900 - i think the max I had was around 860/880 (maybe + 2% dissent that would give 900) and then I started to upgrade as I was loosing steel. I was actully thinking of taking sweden so I could lower my ic... but I hated to have a big dissent during the upcomming war with u.

I think if we add a weak italian human player + allow uk to take military control of its minors or maybe france we should have a balaced game with starfire + maybe edit in a little bit more manpower for the germans. I like cores events but the tech tree is a little messed up right now + star has the 999 defence option + the no fight at night which make a huge difference. Core does seem to have better worked out the penalties for river attackes. Its too easy to do in starfire mod..

F

 

[Zebulba]

AFAIK 115 SA has 15% more firepower than 100 SA. so 1 extra SA might not be worth it if you already have 100 since it only increase firepower by 1% whilst 15 migt be worth it since it gives a boost of 15% all depending how much it costs. the techtree bonuses should be reworked to fit the new stats.
I might be wrong on all this but i think i am correct.

/Zebulba

 

[Orthank]

Does 1 point of attack gives only 1% more firepower??? Or am i wrong. If it is like that its useless to develope any techs!

 

[boromir]

Does 1 point of attack gives only 1% more firepower??? Or am i wrong. If it is like that its useless to develope any techs!

Not 1% firepower ... it depends on how much you have already AFAIK. I guess it increases the effectiveness more of troops with low attack values - such as infantry.

On the other hand if you develop an extra +15 and the opposition doesn't you have some advantage.

 

[Orthank]

Inf, perhaps yes but tanks? If you have already 100HA there is no difference if you have extra 8, it's better to spend that ic on dive for example.

Germany vs Russia has no chance in this mode i'm afraid that something should be changed with doctrines. Perhaps more doctrines for Reich especially armoured spearhead, badly needed because of improved tanks.

 

[unmerged(12303)]

Germany vs Russia has no chance in this mode i'm afraid that something should be changed with doctrines. Perhaps more doctrines for Reich especially armoured spearhead, badly needed because of improved tanks.

If you do that then germany will be able to attack russia in 1940 april and russia will stand less of a chance. If the USA is so greatly delayed then germany should not be able to field so advanced tanks in 40. Furthermore it would be nice if the MR pact made the dissent of declaring war prior to 1940 September greater like 10. Would add more sense to the pact.

F

 

[boromir]

If you do that then germany will be able to attack russia in 1940 april and russia will stand less of a chance. If the USA is so greatly delayed then germany should not be able to field so advanced tanks in 40. Furthermore it would be nice if the MR pact made the dissent of declaring war prior to 1940 September greater like 10. Would add more sense to the pact.

F

The USA is not delayed. US WE mismanagement is in vanilla HOI and CORE, and in starfire too. By the time Ger attacks Sov, their WE is 100 even if Ger attacks in mid 1940, but otherwise does everything else historic. That is if Italy doesn't do ahistorical moves.

 

[unmerged(12303)]

The USA is not delayed. US WE mismanagement is in vanilla HOI and CORE, and in starfire too. By the time Ger attacks Sov, their WE is 100 even if Ger attacks in mid 1940, but otherwise does everything else historic. That is if Italy doesn't do ahistorical moves.

wasnt US WE 77% when you attacked me?

M

 

[Kindjal]

Seeing that all "Divisional Signal Command System" techs are night useless you might as well remove them.

 

[boromir]

wasnt US WE 77% when you attacked me?

M

Have to look it up. Remember that it goes up by 15% a few days later too.

 

[unmerged(13894)]

- The UK player invested loads in air power, I suppose I should have as well. His improved fighter vapourized the Luftwaffe. It's just too easy to get improved planes, you can have them in 1939 and research to the end of air doctrine tree by 1939 too.

I've noticed this too. Maybe all golds (not doctrines) could have the 300 day timer like the tank techs. Maybe double the time for gold doctrines too. (So 'Late War Experience Analysis' actually occurs late in the war)

To sum up, the Allies just had more units, better tech, more manpower, supplies and IC. I think thats ok, but in 1944, not 1941.

In general, my pet peeve with HoI MP is that the war doesn't last long enough. IMO, stretching out the tech tree, combined with Starfire's longer battles, is the way to go. I'd like to try an MP Starfire game, but with all the gold doc times doubled.

 

[Mithel]

Wow, thanks guys, that's a lot to digest. I'll review your comments carefully in the next two days and I'll plan to release another version on Wednesday.

A few comments:

It seems all of you are going very tank heavy. Are you not running out of oil at all? It seems odd that you aren't seeing some oil shortages. (but perhaps your still operating on pre-war stockpiles and not noticing it)

A +1 attack value is significant for Infantry (where it is roughly a 3% to 5% gain). The tank gains *should* be mostly from the better models not from a stray tech or two. It sounds like I need to adjust the tank techs a bit.

I suspect you are right that I've got Germany too low on manpower, but this may also be a difference between the intensity of human play vs AI play. As humans you may be fighting more and burning up more manpower.

I'll look over the aircraft tech trees. You are probably correct that the UK can get improved aircraft too early.

I didn't want to touch the naval again as v1.06 will completely redo naval. Yes, I've found that even with my changes it's rather foolish for Germany to attempt to strangle the UK via subs (and surface ships are worse).

Kindjal, I'm confused that you say "Divisional Signal Command System" techs are useless. Those are the most valuable techs of all! The shift in ground_def_eff is a major advantage.

Fiendix, ground_def_eff +16 vs +17 is a very important difference. You want a lower number. Basically +16 means that your enemy blocks 96% of your attacks where as +17 means that your enemy blocks 97% of your attacks. Think of it this way: if you are attacking with 100 strength points, at +16 you'll hit 4 times per hour, at +17 you will only hit 3 times per hour. There is a big difference between doing 4 hits vs 3 hits per hour!

Mech are very valuable going up against soft armies (infantry) but they don't have much use going head to head against a Panzer division. They are useful if used correctly, but they are not a substitute for a true armored division.

Keep in mind that I treat "mech" as more or less like a German PanzerGrenadier division (not a modern "mech" division), essentially infantry with halftracks. These divisions were far more effective than a normal infantry division but they lack the big gun firepower to go head to head against tanks.

What are you guys doing as far as "intelligence techs"? As Germany I maintain my intelligence advantage so the Russians are fighting me "blind", they can't tell where my armor is or is going to hit next - that makes it very difficult for them to deal with the lethal German divisions. When the Russians have thrown infantry at me and are surprised to hit German mech divisions they get chewed up and thrown back.

A Russian player with strong armor and good luck can rip a German player to pieces. But that's tricky if they are "blind". All of my opponents have considered my Germany as "undefeatable", but I'm also playing against players that don't know the game system inside and out like I do.

There are a lot of improvements yet to be made. Keep up the comments and we'll keep refining it better and better. Feel free to e-mail me directly if you have a specific concern or idea that you want me to look at. And yes, if you zip up a save game file or two I'll look at them.

- Mithel

 

[unmerged(12303)]

Wow, thanks guys, that's a lot to digest. I'll review your comments carefully in the next two days and I'll plan to release another version on Wednesday.

most excellent .

It seems all of you are going very tank heavy. Are you not running out of oil at all? It seems odd that you aren't seeing some oil shortages. (but perhaps your still operating on pre-war stockpiles and not noticing it)

Hmm well we were going to very heavy although we could only build improved medium by 41 so we did not have any of the heavy tanks yet. I did not have a oil problem neither did the germans. I think tank techs are ok the way they are right now.

A +1 attack value is significant for Infantry (where it is roughly a 3% to 5% gain). The tank gains *should* be mostly from the better models not from a stray tech or two. It sounds like I need to adjust the tank techs a bit.

thats good to know. Tank small techs should only be nerfed a little bit - dont overdo it.

I suspect you are right that I've got Germany too low on manpower, but this may also be a difference between the intensity of human play vs AI play. As humans you may be fighting more and burning up more manpower..

we started a new 2 mp game and added 500 manpower to the germans.. we shall see how it will work out. Maybe reinforcing should cost less manpower than it too to build?

I'll look over the aircraft tech trees. You are probably correct that the UK can get improved aircraft too early.

true but the uk should have a chance to depend itself airpowerwise and their planes should be a little better like by 1 def? Otherwise the germans might have a too easy seaslion?

I didn't want to touch the naval again as v1.06 will completely redo naval. Yes, I've found that even with my changes it's rather foolish for Germany to attempt to strangle the UK via subs (and surface ships are worse)..

subs are very powerfull - IMHO Germany did not play them as he should have. Transports were going down very fast, but he had to little of the subs and did not research a lot the techs the improved sub attacks. Finally after such a bombing run the uk player had to use A LOT of supplies to put them back in the fight.

Fiendix, ground_def_eff +16 vs +17 is a very important difference. You want a lower number. Basically +16 means that your enemy blocks 96% of your attacks where as +17 means that your enemy blocks 97% of your attacks. Think of it this way: if you are attacking with 100 strength points, at +16 you'll hit 4 times per hour, at +17 you will only hit 3 times per hour. There is a big difference between doing 4 hits vs 3 hits per hour!)..

thats good to know - the germans should have an advantage in this.

Mech are very valuable going up against soft armies (infantry) but they don't have much use going head to head against a Panzer division. They are useful if used correctly, but they are not a substitute for a true armored division.!)..

Thats what I thought I was suprised he invested so much in them. Although they are devastating attacking over rivers - you should nerf that and make it more like core. Plus limit eff during snow and blizards/ice.

What are you guys doing as far as "intelligence techs"? As Germany I maintain my intelligence advantage so the Russians are fighting me "blind", they can't tell where my armor is or is going to hit next - that makes it very difficult for them to deal with the lethal German divisions. When the Russians have thrown infantry at me and are surprised to hit German mech divisions they get chewed up and thrown back.

never had a problem with that - I always invest a bit in that - just in case + I have the intelligence guy that gives 30%. So it should even things out. Add to that recon with bombers I am rarely suprised by that.

A Russian player with strong armor and good luck can rip a German player to pieces. But that's tricky if they are "blind". All of my opponents have considered my Germany as "undefeatable", but I'm also playing against players that don't know the game system inside and out like I do.

hehe - pity we cant have a go against you..

There are a lot of improvements yet to be made. Keep up the comments and we'll keep refining it better and better. Feel free to e-mail me directly if you have a specific concern or idea that you want me to look at. And yes, if you zip up a save game file or two I'll look at them..

We will - you are doing a great job. It would be nice if you could use some of the core events too.

Whats your e-mail?

F

 

[Orthank]

This would be wonderful if the Geramns could have better inteliegence that SU, but it's hard to do because of that minister (army inteliegence +30%).

According to the Improved aircraft it should be available in mid 1941 (ready to fight). Mid 1939 for England is far to quick. But bove UK and Reich should have it in the same time.

Subs are stronger than in HoI 1.05c, as i wrote my 12 destroyers with detection technology vs 12 uboot VII with torpedo data... only 5 of my destroyers survived with strength no more than 40, Germany did'nt lost any subs. I switched my tactics from destroyers to Aircraft - that works better but still, subs are so quick and hard to spot that they can sunk alot of convoys till i found those wolves.

Rivers dosn't seems to give much bonus fo the defender, or am i wrong?

In 1941 Russia can esaly have the same doctrines that Reich - 1942/43 would be better.

Still 9.5 on 10 possible points .

 

[Mithel]

Fiendix, my e-mail address should be in the readme file that I include with my mod. I'll also PM you and give it to you in PM.

It's unlikely anyone would have an oil problem by 1941 but if the Germans build significantly more armored, mech, motorized divisions than historically (and fail to capture a significant oil source) they should start to be eating through their stockpiles, which should then start to concern them for later in the war.

I do find it very fascinating to observe the difference in skill of the various players. I've seen some players that had a reputation of being "brilliant" who failed completely to comprehend HoI and played horribly!

Unfortunately I can't adjust the manpower cost of building a division relative to reinforcing it. I fully intend lack of manpower to be one of the key problems Germany must deal with. It's a tricky balance to give Germany the right amount so they can successfully drive to Moscow and then find out they are ground down by the Soviets and lack the resources (manpower mostly) to deliver the killing blow.

It sounds like in your game the Soviets gained far too much IC and were able to out muscle the Germans. Where the Germans will fail to rebuild due to lack of manpower, the Soviets should face serious shortages of supplies to keep a large army at full strength. Some of this might be how you handle the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. I never go historical myself as Germany, I don't want to hand over half of Poland to Russia.

Airpower will be critical to the UK as it is very important to prevent an amph assault. Generally the best way to do a successful invasion is to use airpower to bring the defenders on the beaches org down so that you can win the landing even if you don't have overwhelming strength. Good fighter cover can prevent that.

I think I need to look at UK manpower. They probably get too much. I do give the UK a very slight advantage with their aircraft in my nation specific techs. Perhaps I should give them a bit more of an advantage. I really was planning to wait until v1.06 was released to do a major overhaul of air warfare.

I agree that subs are devastating. I've driven the UK nuts with my naval pressure on them. But all in all while it's fun and scares the daylights out of a human UK player it fails to achieve enough of an impact and I feel it's not properly cost effective. While the "Battle of the Atlantic" may have historically been won by the Allies it did cost them a lot in sunk shipping. Paradox gives the UK too many free merchant ships! (that's hard coded and I don't know any way to change it)

I will review the river crossing penalties. I've improved them a lot over vanilla but perhaps they still need an adjustment. Mechanized should be no better across a river than armor. Fully teched up a river attack should still be -12% for mech and armor. I will adjust that as I feel rivers are a more significant obstacle than that.

Perhaps your German opponent didn't invest enough into intelligence techs? A good human player will use bombing recon to spot his foe too, that's a trick I don't think my friends have properly learned to use.

I'm working with Luxor to revamp the events. Events have always been a low priority for me (I wanted to get the basics working first). You should be seeing improved events and new events in the next few weeks as I start to work on it.

- Mithel

 

[Kindjal]

Kindjal, I'm confused that you say "Divisional Signal Command System" techs are useless. Those are the most valuable techs of all! The shift in ground_def_eff is a major advantage.

It shows an modifier of 0, so yeah.

 

[unmerged(12303)]

Fiendix, my e-mail address should be in the readme file that I include with my mod. I'll also PM you and give it to you in PM.

okay will find it

It's unlikely anyone would have an oil problem by 1941 but if the Germans build significantly more armored, mech, motorized divisions than historically (and fail to capture a significant oil source) they should start to be eating through their stockpiles, which should then start to concern them for later in the war.

we shall test it this game and I will let you know how it works.

I do find it very fascinating to observe the difference in skill of the various players. I've seen some players that had a reputation of being "brilliant" who failed completely to comprehend HoI and played horribly!

yes well we have been palying a lot of game and true we do make stupid mistakes at times.. but geberally Boromir does a very good job with germany (in plaing hoi that is)

Unfortunately I can't adjust the manpower cost of building a division relative to reinforcing it. I fully intend lack of manpower to be one of the key problems Germany must deal with. It's a tricky balance to give Germany the right amount so they can successfully drive to Moscow and then find out they are ground down by the Soviets and lack the resources (manpower mostly) to deliver the killing blow.

I agree. Maybe you could introduce some evernts that give germany manpower in later years sothat they can continue fighting. Events that will pop up if the manpower is below a certain point?

It sounds like in your game the Soviets gained far too much IC and were able to out muscle the Germans. Where the Germans will fail to rebuild due to lack of manpower, the Soviets should face serious shortages of supplies to keep a large army at full strength. Some of this might be how you handle the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. I never go historical myself as Germany, I don't want to hand over half of Poland to Russia.

Yes I had a lot of IC -dont your opponents (russia) upgrade everything? We always play honor the MR pact as it the basis of WWII. I did not have a huge problems with supplies although they are very costly - which is ok.

Airpower will be critical to the UK as it is very important to prevent an amph assault. Generally the best way to do a successful invasion is to use airpower to bring the defenders on the beaches org down so that you can win the landing even if you don't have overwhelming strength. Good fighter cover can prevent that.

right - so dont weaken the brits too much.

I think I need to look at UK manpower. They probably get too much. .

yup. but just a little too much

I do give the UK a very slight advantage with their aircraft in my nation specific techs. Perhaps I should give them a bit more of an advantage. I really was planning to wait until v1.06 was released to do a major overhaul of air warfare.

why wait if we can test it for u

I agree that subs are devastating. I've driven the UK nuts with my naval pressure on them. But all in all while it's fun and scares the daylights out of a human UK player it fails to achieve enough of an impact and I feel it's not properly cost effective. While the "Battle of the Atlantic" may have historically been won by the Allies it did cost them a lot in sunk shipping. Paradox gives the UK too many free merchant ships! (that's hard coded and I don't know any way to change it)

maybe u can implement events which decrease them due to random loses ir sneak attacks form subs..?

I will review the river crossing penalties. I've improved them a lot over vanilla but perhaps they still need an adjustment. Mechanized should be no better across a river than armor. Fully teched up a river attack should still be -12% for mech and armor. I will adjust that as I feel rivers are a more significant obstacle than that.

Please do the mechs charged my mot with an AT attachents and I lost.

Perhaps your German opponent didn't invest enough into intelligence techs? A good human player will use bombing recon to spot his foe too, that's a trick I don't think my friends have properly learned to use.

maybe he did not I dont remember will check. Yes bombing - this is a basic strategy I nearly always use to see what I have against me.

I'm working with Luxor to revamp the events. Events have always been a low priority for me (I wanted to get the basics working first). You should be seeing improved events and new events in the next few weeks as I start to work on it- Mithel

great!

F

 

[boromir]

@Fiendix:

Subs are no good at strangling the UK. Really, how would you have me use them? They cost a lot to research, the UK has tons of transports, and the subs get hit both by the escorts and by naval bombers. Not researched a lot? Are you saying 3 naval doctrines (one gold) and two-three gold naval techs was not a lot? The rest of the Germany navy is a joke too.

Supplies are a non-issue for the UK too, Germany is the one that has to fight in the East, the UK can easily afford to have zero supplies, Germany cannot. Germany can afford not to take London. It cannot afford not to take Moscow.

After the next weekend rematch you can play Germany if you wish, I will be very much interested what kind of use you can put the subs to. I'm sure that the Russian player will enjoy that very much

They may make a difference if Italy is played by a human if he hits you as well. To me in a three way setup subs are only useful in keeping the UK player on his toes, or to have some firepower for a surprise Sea Lion.

Planes even better for the UK? Totally disagree. The Germans have to fight on 2 fronts. Planes should be equal for both.

@Mithel:

I had no problems with resources at all, maxed out in everything. Oil is really no problem. The only major problem I see are supplies ... the events that give supplies to the EE minors are too much imo - I mean it would be nice to be able not to give them away. Germany has to sacrifice a lot if IC to keep the supplies going and they just drift away to Bulgaria etc ... because of the IC conversion rates it costs the Germans LOADs of IC to keep supplies up. The Allies do not have such a problem. This hits Germany very very hard.

I don't see how much difference intelligence makes if the Soviets have superior tanks in more numbers, and more armies in general, more manpower, more supplies and more IC.

I admittedly played Germany wrong - the vanilla HOI way, where I would have the mechs easily give me the HA advantage and crush the Russians as always. But I'll have my revenge next weekend hopefully

Both the UK and Russia has too much manpower, Germany has too little. UK has too much IC, Germany a bit too little. Russia has loads of supplies too - imo, they should have less, after all, they did depend on Allied help. Though Italy would also have to be balanced a bit if the Allies are nerfed here.

It would be great if you released a new version wednesday with some changes to the balance of power

 

[Mithel]

Orthank, thanks! I can't believe they gave the Soviets those ministers! (and I can't believe my friends failed to use them!) I will fix that right away! I've been studying military intelligence lately and at least up till 1943 the Russians were pathetic compared to the Germans at gaining intelligence on what they were facing. I've read some fascinating accounts (actual patrol reports) and it's almost laughable how bad the Soviets were at hiding their intentions.

I agree that both UK and Germany should be on par for aircraft tech if they both invest into it equally. They tended to take turns through the entire war each having a slight edge briefly before the other side had a slight advantage briefly. In the scale of HoI they should be dead even.

I've given the "improved fighter" tech tree a quick look and I agree, it should be extended out a bit. I'll be adjusting that.

As Germany I was able to keep most of my subs from ever being sunk but they spent a LOT of time in port being repaired before heading out for more convoy sinking. Naval aircraft used against naval units are devastating. After v1.06 is released I'll look into that.

Rivers give a base -45% (stock is -50%) to attacks, but that is quickly brought down by techs. Gaining both portable military bridge and Amph crossing equipment will quickly cut the river advantage in half. I'm going to adjust those values a little for the next version.

Interesting that you guys indicate Russia is able to do so well in research. My friends report that Russia is "hopelessly behind Germany on techs". I'll definitely review it a bit. I think my biggest oversight was the Russian ministers.

{smile} A 9.5 out of 10 is very flattering and I don't think it deserves it. If I gave my own mod a rating I'd give it perhaps more like a 7.0 to 8.0 of the potential of what modified HoI can be. There is a lot still in need of significant improvement.

- Mithel

 

[boromir]

@Mithel:

We play with the RM pact because we think there would have not been a WW2 without it Maybe next time we should try without it, that would help.
The Russian player also easily took Finland.

Russia can be a powerhouse. They have great ministers that give 10% to industrial research, +5% technical specialist minister and I believe in your mod they also get Russian-only bonuses to tech research. Not surprisingly, they can research the entire industry tech tree by 1939 or so. They have loads of territory to upgrade, add to them the IC boosting techs researched earlier and they had more IC than the Germans by 1939.