Starbases and defence

[krios41]

I had kinda forgotten about this topic, but today i got rudely reminded jsut how absolutly -insert the strongest expletive you can think of in your language- useless starbases are.
For once i deviated from my usual goodie2shoes playtrough and decided to become the crisis, thinking it'd be fun. Well, no, its not, not realy... i just so happend to have 3 wormholes in my territory, so now i'm playing whack-a-mole because starbases can't even stop the crappy AI fleets. Thats how bad they are and it kills my will to finish it

Truly, my only mistake was starting the last stage before i had enough fleets to station at each of my choke points AND wormholes. Can't anything be done about this? And no, i'm not going to waste 10K alloys on the platforms because they don't do anything.

edit: to further emphasize how useless the starbases are. i'm talking about the star fortress against AI in 2300. While i'm well into repeatables. So its not as if it ahs to face end game fleets

 

[Zagreb 887]

If you don't mind using mods, there are some good ones who make defense platforms actually useful: the At war series of mods. NSC2 provides you with several hulls for defense platforms.
Finally, you have ACOT who give you access to very powerful defensive platforms hulls, weapons and components.

But vanilla platforms are just useless, if you dont go for the unyielding tradition tree

 

[wodzu_93]

Yeah, I found that too. Base game defenses are kinda bad, no matter what.

First, starbase damage output is low compared to attacking fleets, since it mounts very few weapons - game tries to compensate by large starbase HP pool, but that does not really work. Having only 1 G slot plus 2 M slots per starbase level is abyssmal firepower - Single 1L 1M destroyer has more DPS than a default Starport (tier 1 starbase) does. Installing Gun Batteries can roughly double default damage output, but it's still not much.

As for defense platforms, each one is worth about the same as a Destroyer does in terms of stats, but is either equal price or slightly more expensive, while being completely immobile and tied to a single system.

Once X-slot battleships roll around, they outrange all defenses save for Ion Cannons, so unless your Citadels are stacked with Ion Cannons, they get steamrolled by Battleships every single time.

I found Hangar-based defenses fare a bit better, as Strike Craft have bigger aggro range than even X slot weapons, and they more FAST, so Starbase with Hangar Defense Platforms can deal pretty well even with cruisers, but you need quite a bit of them to be effective against bigger fleets.

Unyielding tradition tree does not help - there is little there that helps, since buffs in there do not address the core problems with defences. Let's see:
- Adoption - does not matter from combat perspective
- Defensive Zeal - this one is actually quite good
- Fortress Doctrine - cost cut is actually quite big. Sabotage is a joke of an operation
- Bulwark of Harmony - +15% Home Territory Fire rate is nice, as it applies to Starbases and DPs as well.
- Finisher - +50% DP cap is ok, but it costs to build DPs in the first place

So, Unyielding helps before battleships show up, but its irrevelant after.


If PDX wants defences to be more effective, there are few easy changes that can be done to do that. I've made a mod myself that adresses this as a part of bigger combat overhaul, so I'll presesnt it here, maybe someone will pick ideas up. NSC and ACOT go into crazy OP territory in my opinion, but that's a personal taste. So here are my takes at making defences more viable:


1) Reduce their costs - since platforms are system bound, they cannot replace a fleet. So having them cheap would really help. And I'm talking like -50% off what's now.

2) Switching out slots for higher tier starbases, so they better fare against bigger ships would be a good starting point.

Starhold: 1L 4M

Spoiler: Starhold

Star Fortress: 1 XL, 2L, 4M

Spoiler: Star Fortress

Citadel: 3 XL, 4L, 6M

Spoiler: Citadel

For those saying there are no X-slot weapons for them early, you can make new X-slot variants of Lasers, Mass Drivers and Missiles, so they would fit before proper X-slot weapons are researched. This is what I did in my mod.


3) It would be nice to have more options for defensive modules. 2S 2P module (unlocked with either tier 2 Flak/laser PD techs), 2L module (Star Fortress tech) and 1 XL module (any XL weapon tech) would be nice to have alongside current 2M, 2G and 1H modules.


4) In 1.9 and prior, where defense plaforms were built freely in the system, we had these:

Spoiler: BIGGER defense platforms

It would be cool to reintroduce those! Maybe tie them to traditions? Like, Unyielding Finisher additionally unlocks Defense Station, and Eternal Vigilance ascension perk unlocks Defense Station OR Fortress is you finished Unyielding tradition already.

 

[CWJameson]

devs read this

 

[Jirass]

i would change 3 things
1#
Let us design star bases ourselves

2#
outpost and defense platform+10% weapon range
Starbases and Defense Platform+15% weapon range
Starhold and Defense Platform+20% weapons range
Star Fortress and Defense Platform+25% weapons range
Citadel and Defense Platform+30% weapons range

3#
and let us put admirals on star bases
and their fleet bunusses then become system modifiers

Waits
Target Uplink Computers+50% Starbase Weapons Range does this also apply to Defense Platform?
if it doesn't, it should, or maybe it should even be a system modifier.

I think this would also help a bit

 

[Mohreb]

I would love if starbases in nebulas (-100%shield), would not, indeed, use shields...

 

[legionof1]

snip
Target Uplink Computers+50% Starbase Weapons Range does this also apply to Defense Platform?
if it doesn't, it should, or maybe it should even be a system modifier.
snip

It does and finally got a tooltip saying so in lem.

 

[Mealya]

It does and finally got a tooltip saying so in lem.

It wasn't the case before the 3.X... But now it is a game changer. Simply because it means that Ion cannons have 375 range now with buff and Neutron Launchers have 195. This is more than Tachyon Lance with a range Admiral.

It means that the defensive player will always have the first strike, plus the fact we now can have more than 100 defensive platforms... It will not be as easy as before.

But if you want more power on your Starbase like this :

It is possible with this mod :

Steam Workshop::Starbases/Orbital Rings Upgrades, Balances & Fixes (3.7.*)

steamcommunity.com

 

[Bezborg]

I would love if starbases in nebulas (-100%shield), would not, indeed, use shields...

But how to have such advanced programming in 2021? How to achieve this?

 

[hart30]

There is an edict which in theory should lower the cost for defensive platforms by quite a bit, but sadly it is currently bugged and does not work. I believe it is "fortify the borders".

 

[wodzu_93]

There is an edict which in theory should lower the cost for defensive platforms by quite a bit, but sadly it is currently bugged and does not work. I believe it is "fortify the borders".

That one is for Starbases, not Defensive Platforms. +2 Starbase Capacity, +50% Starbase Upgrade Speed, -10% Empire Sprawl from Systems.

 

[klopkr]

What I hate about star bases the most is that their fleet strength is just incorrect. They always feel 1/2 as strong as they say they are.

Kind of an AI and noob trap.

Plus what I want them to be is attrition to the enemy in my territory but it ends up being attrition back at me if they beat it and I only have limited worthwhile starbases to attrition them. Break through the first few and tons of space becomes free real-estate.

 

[GuildenSpur]

I find it rather annoying you still cannot focus on defense. I tried Unyielding and Eternal Vigilance, still doesn't matter. There should be a way to make starbases more deadly and maybe make it cost more as a trade-off. I still use a mod I made that makes them have more firepower and hull in exchange for a high upkeep. The starbases can kill fleets. I also make the platforms bigger and tougher. It should be a trade-off at least until the endgame: keep big fleets to go on the offense or go with more defense and was a result smaller fleets. You could tie it to Unyielding and eternal vigilance and/or some ethics.

 

[ASGeek2012]

I do find starbases to be useful in the early game, as they can help fend off an assault by an AI in an early war when I 'm not ready to match their fleet strength. Their problem in my view is two-fold:

1) The later tiers don't really scale well as compared to ship tech
2) Defense platforms are too easily destroyed.

For #2 above, I would like to see defense platforms be an actual part of the starbase rather than a separate asset. They can enjoy the better armor and shield protection of the starbase. Either that or create a separate set of weapon slots that can be filled, perhaps unlocking more with tech. In that case, rename them "weapon emplacements" instead of "defense platforms".

 

[killer260111]

i mean, let us also point out how defence platforms upkeep is based on ship upkeep rather than starbase upkeep.
secondly you also got the fact defence platforms don't work cause they can snipe the starbase and all the platforms flip to the other side.

far as i see it the biggest issue is the fact that platforms die too easy, and lack the stopping power to work late game, bringing back the old defence platforms would be a good idea for those who did go down the unyielding tree. as of right now however the tree isn't really worth it, other than RP

 

[Fenris_SE]

I do find starbases to be useful in the early game, as they can help fend off an assault by an AI in an early war when I 'm not ready to match their fleet strength. Their problem in my view is two-fold:

1) The later tiers don't really scale well as compared to ship tech
2) Defense platforms are too easily destroyed.

For #2 above, I would like to see defense platforms be an actual part of the starbase rather than a separate asset. They can enjoy the better armor and shield protection of the starbase. Either that or create a separate set of weapon slots that can be filled, perhaps unlocking more with tech. In that case, rename them "weapon emplacements" instead of "defense platforms".

Yeah, I really only use them in early game as bastions at choke points or later on to protect some trade lanes. They are great with one upgrade in the early game even if your fleet is much smaller than your angry neighbor. I tell myself every game I'm going to see how far I can push bastions, I got one around 200k or so, then got tired of building platforms. I've seen some posts and YouTube videos with them going over 300k and holding off a Scourge fleet with no help, I just don't feel like sinking that many resources into them. It's much easier and cheaper to set up a gate network and have a defense fleet or two imo.

 

[Grindcore]

Im in a game where I siezed several strategic cordination centers. At around 60 defense platforms they started really dissuading enemy fleets. Now I have some, like in terminal egress, clocking in at over 300K power with repeatables.

I know its absurdity but whatever, it does eliminate having to keep fleets covering choke points. So they do work so long as theyre allowed to reach fleet powers sifficient to hold their own. In the current system yeah, they cant, and thus its not worth the investment.

 

[Ussnorway]

put a gate at each wormhole and have 1 fleet guard the lot

 

[Gromit]

Stations have zero evasion. They're very useful early on at keeping the AI out and not declaring war on you within 5 minutes. Beyond that point, their usefulness in terms of defence starts to wane rapidly, especially when cruisers start to appear.

The chase me, chase me horseshit the AI does is extremely tiresome if you're not prepared for it. Wormholes and L-Gates are the worst offenders for obnoxious fleets rolling in. You can change your fleet stance to rapid deployment if you need to give your fleets a bit of speed boost to clean up, also don't forget about the edict too.

Placing gates at each wormhole and chokepoint is all well and good IF you can get there before the station drops. Defence platforms aren't exactly expensive late game but they're incredibly slow to replace and they get zapped far too quickly. Ion cannons take way too long to build too.