Ragnarok Ascendant

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Okay, starbases kinda suck. We all know this. They are useless past the mid-game and defense platforms are quite literally a waste of alloys. To add insult to injury, the auto-design for starbase loadouts is short on power and very prone to making dumb decisions and suboptimal loadouts.

So, here's what I suggest:
  • Remove all weapons slots from starbases. Starbases can serve as anchorages, trade hubs, or shipyards - but not bastions.
  • Reinstate designable, placeable defense platforms, fortresses, and citadels. These designs would be accessed through a menu via an upgraded starbase, and be placed in the system manually similarly to how megastructures currently are. Upgrading techs for larger starbases also allows you to build bigger and better fortifications. The 'combat' auras from starbases would be aura options for fortresses and above. You can make as many of these as you have alloys for, and their damage-efficiency:alloys ratio is higher than with a fleet, but they're still expensive, immobile, and need investment to be effective.
  • Reinstate distance-limited auras (these used to be a thing) and make minefields and other obstacles viable. Bring back FTL snares for handling Jump Drives as another constructible thing.
What this does:
  1. With defense platforms and minefields being placeable, this makes the current meta of 'spam kinetic artillery and X-slots' less viable. It's kinda difficult for artillery battleships to pick things off at range when there's minefields and enough close-range firepower to shred those battleships awaiting those who enter via a certain jump point.
  2. Placeable fortresses also allow you to design a defense properly with stronger 'tanky' stations in the front and artillery and hangar ones in the back.
  3. This prevents stupidity like 'this starbase is wasting 70% of its defense slots on shields in a pulsar', by making defenses designable. You should be able to train the AI to spam a certain defense platform/fortress/citadel type in pulsar systems.
  4. Makes playing tall and turtling a viable playstyle while also reducing fleet use. Current meta for defense past the midgame is just turtling with a fleet, but with the expensive defenses, you have to choose between static forts and mobile fleets.
 
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drawar

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Bad idea.

First, a player must be able to choose the components of his Starbase, like for ships.
Then the platforms might not be destroyed, but just inoperative and be repaired after a fight.
Afterwards, if we wanted, we could add another level of starbase which would transform it into a sort of megastructure (perhaps with an Ascension perks).

Optionally, we could also increase the resistance of the starbases so that they can hold out longer to allow time for allied fleets to arrive.

Ultimately, most importantly, because not implementing this would render all other modifications useless, you need an attrition / supply / logistics system for the fleets to prevent an empire from regrouping everything (without penalty) to smash any defense or "inferior" enemy empire.
 
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Netherim

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Bad idea.

First, a player must be able to choose the components of his Starbase, like for ships.
Then the platforms might not be destroyed, but just inoperative and be repaired after a fight.
Afterwards, if we wanted, we could add another level of starbase which would transform it into a sort of megastructure (perhaps with an Ascension perks).

Optionally, we could also increase the resistance of the starbases so that they can hold out longer to allow time for allied fleets to arrive.

Ultimately, most importantly, because not implementing this would render all other modifications useless, you need an attrition / supply / logistics system for the fleets to prevent an empire from regrouping everything (without penalty) to smash any defense or "inferior" enemy empire.
Yes, but the problem can be solved if Paradox introduces fuel, as in Distant Worlds. If you had to take in account fuel, than regrouping distant fleets will be not only a matter of time, but also fuels, which can be obtained only in starbases. So you need to manage multiple fleets that can't be stacked without risk, and so, fortified starbases plays a crucial role.
 

Ragnarok Ascendant

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Bad idea.

First, a player must be able to choose the components of his Starbase, like for ships.
Then the platforms might not be destroyed, but just inoperative and be repaired after a fight.
Afterwards, if we wanted, we could add another level of starbase which would transform it into a sort of megastructure (perhaps with an Ascension perks).

Optionally, we could also increase the resistance of the starbases so that they can hold out longer to allow time for allied fleets to arrive.

Ultimately, most importantly, because not implementing this would render all other modifications useless, you need an attrition / supply / logistics system for the fleets to prevent an empire from regrouping everything (without penalty) to smash any defense or "inferior" enemy empire.

How is it a bad idea to separate 'economic and ownership engine' from 'system defense'? Because half the reason starbases have so many issues is that they're kludged together to do both.
 

Netherim

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How is it a bad idea to separate 'economic and ownership engine' from 'system defense'? Because half the reason starbases have so many issues is that they're kludged together to do both.
Yes, but right now, we have very few meaningful choises, if we can separate the two thinghs, without reduce the game to a sort of interactive film, I'm ok, otherwise, it's better to let the player to choose the loadout.
 

Ragnarok Ascendant

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Yes, but right now, we have very few meaningful choises, if we can separate the two thinghs, without reduce the game to a sort of interactive film, I'm ok, otherwise, it's better to let the player to choose the loadout.

You do choose the loadout, and with far more granularity than the current system. By building defense platforms/fortresses, you get to choose exactly what goes where, without having to manually decide for every single starbase you upgrade what you want to use. Your actual outpost/starbase remains as an ownership marker and possibly an anchorage, shipyard, trade hub, whatever - it's simply not an armed target.
This is less 'interactive film', and more 'your carefully placed defenses manage to efficiently destroy enemy fleets without taking much damage in return'.
 
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Netherim

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You do choose the loadout, and with far more granularity than the current system. By building defense platforms/fortresses, you get to choose exactly what goes where, without having to manually decide for every single starbase you upgrade what you want to use. Your actual outpost/starbase remains as an ownership marker and possibly an anchorage, shipyard, trade hub, whatever - it's simply not an armed target.
This is less 'interactive film', and more 'your carefully placed defenses manage to efficiently destroy enemy fleets without taking much damage in return'.
Ok, but I think that defense platform should lost maintenance cost, or at least reduce it heavily, because you need many of them even at the beginning.
 

Ragnarok Ascendant

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Ok, but I think that defense platform should lost maintenance cost, or at least reduce it heavily, because you need many of them even at the beginning.

Unless they heavily buff the defense platform, I'd agree with you on that. It needs more oomph to justify costing as much as it does.
 
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drawar

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How is it a bad idea to separate 'economic and ownership engine' from 'system defense'? Because half the reason starbases have so many issues is that they're kludged together to do both.

This imposes a choice and specialization. Will the Starbase have military, economic, other, mixed ... However, in fact, the two are by no means incompatible. We could very well have places reserved to add weaponry, shields and so on. In addition to locations reserved for logistics, economy, various improvements including military, other than adding weapons and etc. So having some kind of compromise, you can still make a real stronghold, all with some other utility, just like you could solidly fortify an economic starbase, if it's worth the cost of spending resources on that.

The starbases deserve a “little” overhaul.

However, if I said that, it is because I do not like the idea of going back to the old system of "spaceport" and "free" fortress. This will only add micromanagement and possibly other frustrating issues, if there are no limitations. And if there are limitations, and even without limitation, without redesigning naval logistics, any defense is doomed to be pulverized in an instant as soon as the empires have fleets powerful enough and they can muster them at one point. without penalty.
 

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I know ... but I've been playing Stellaris since version 1.4 and this has always been talked about on this page and Paradox has never made big changes to this topic until now, why would it now? however he has developed other incredible things.
 

Bane Wraith

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It sounds like an interesting proposal, but would require a hefty amount of balance.

First, I like the idea of the initial star base being used purely for shipyards, trade, or anchorage. I also like the idea of building true weapon defense platforms, but feel that the amount and type you build should depend on the size of your starbase; A star fortress can support 6 gun platforms, or 1 ion cannon and 2 carrier platforms, for example.

Second, I like the idea of being able to place your defenses strategically closer or further to the warp-in points in a system. Lovely added bit of strategy.

Thirdly, I agree that current defense platforms are garbage. It'd be nice to have something more substantial you can place and develop that feels like a better strategic defense than some expensive, floating damage sinks. It'd make those repeatable techs more worthwhile and versatile as well.

All that said, I don't know how this would interact with the current balance. I like that I can take over a heavily fortified starbase, and have just a bit more fortification for my weakened fleet once it comes back online.
 
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Ragnarok Ascendant

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All that said, I don't know how this would interact with the current balance. I like that I can take over a heavily fortified starbase, and have just a bit more fortification for my weakened fleet once it comes back online.

I'm thinking that it'd make defending in that instance somewhat more difficult. You'd probably want reinforcement fleets backing up the poor guys who just got mauled.
 

Make Victoria 3

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any defense is doomed to be pulverized in an instant as soon as the empires have fleets powerful enough and they can muster them at one point. without penalty.
you described exactly how it works now... so aside from having to place stations yourself which is not really that different from now where you have to select which starbase you want to upgrade there isnt really any downside to having the ability to build defense stations where we want them which normally would mean either above planets or choke points so exactly the same as before. While i absolutly want to see a logistics system that UNTIL you have gateways makes it difficult or just impossible to doomstack this will at best be in the next major update and at worst not happen at all. still why should one be opposed to a step in the correct direction (after one in the wrong in 2.0...).
 
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Starbases are an object that centralizes stellar mechanisms: economy, defense and etc. It is clear and simple.

If you add the separate fortresses or more, it does not add anything to the game and it is already the role of the defense platforms (of course, which would need some changes).
If the space fortresses are limited, it does not change the current problem. If there is no limitation, it may as well change nothing, because the fleets can always be disproportionately too powerful, or on the contrary freeze the game creating a "myriad" of fortresses in a system, or even consecutive systems, which in itself will not be very interesting and fun.

If you answer me that the starbases are too limited in number and etc. It just means that some adjustments have to be made.
Already basically, I don't like arbitrary limits. One solution is to create a logistics system, for example:

Civil and military logistics
The logistics capacity is the ability of the empire to maintain its spatial structures and fleets.
It is not abstract, simple bonuses with numbers. It requires an infrastructure, resources and personal ...

Civil logistics :
Civil logistics capacity is used for the operation of mining and other stations, starbases and megastructures (including habitats and gateways).
The more a starbase is developed, the more modules and buildings it has, the more they consume civil logistic capabilities.
Civil logistics capacity is produced by logisticians. These consume alloys and goods.

Some logisticians jobs are created by the capital buildings, but to fill the needs of a real space empire, it will be necessary to build: small warehouse or warehouse.
These buildings also consume a significant administrative capacity.

Habitats require a high level of logistics, but once developed, the balance can be positive.
The trade district creates as employment: 1 merchant, 2 clerks and 2 logisticians. The Gestalt Consciousness would have an equivalent.

The megastructures would have a phenomenal logistical need, but it would no longer be limited in number.

Civil logistics is managed by sector. However, surpluses are redistributed throughout the empire.

A spatial structure with a logistical deficit works less well, until it becomes inactive, if less than 25% of its needs are met.
Habitat with less than 25% of its needs will be completely inactive and habitability will be 0 for organics, if they are not relocated or if the problem is not resolved. Organic pops will start to die.
A special decision that costs the influence makes it possible to mount an emergency evacuation operation, the pops will be relocated elsewhere, but they will be traumatized for a moment, a major loss of mood.

It is possible to disable spatial structures and define priority spatial structures.

Military Logistics :
The military logistics is similar to civilian logistics, but it is dedicated to the maintenance of space fleets.
The soldiers no longer increase the naval capacity, but they generate instead a little unity while consuming alloys.

The military logistics is created by sailors by consuming alloys and goods.
These jobs are created by the small military base and the military base.
Like warehouses, they consume a significant administrative capacity.

If the military logistics capacity is exceeded, some ships will suffer from a deficient maintenance (be less effective). At the bottom of 25%, the ship become inactive.

Priority fleets can be defined. Dockside fleets consume less logistics.

A fleet can be decommissioned, its logistic capacity and maintenance will be greatly reduced, but its shields will be deactivated and the armor and hull will be 25%.

In this way, a player can decide to build the number of starbases that they want (within the limit of their capacities), but they will have to invest in them resources, pops and buildings, which can therefore be done at the expense of others things, like military logistics, research, administration (yes, that needs some tweaking).

Then another simpler approach would be that star systems with a colonized planet could have a "free" starbase (which does not count towards the starbase limit) in that system, or perhaps above a certain threshold, like having a planet colonized with a Planetary Capital or better.

Maybe it's just not a step in the right direction? A useless step or worse harmful. Instead of implementing such a wobbly system, it would be better to think about solving the problem at the source: the ability to bring together an infinite number of ships in one place without any penalty, thus making it possible to crush any defense or empire having a significantly smaller fleet. And, if necessary, to make improvements to starbases and defense platforms.

Finally, we must also remember that we must always adjust the defensive capacities correctly. If they are designed to be able to withstand colossal fleets. This can make the game "impossible" for medium or small empires. Which is not positive. The defenses must be able to repel small assaults, temporarily hold back a larger invader (either to delay or to allow the arrival of an allied fleet of relief) and support an allied fleet less numerous than the enemy. This is why we should rather think of not necessarily prohibiting, but rather seriously penalizing mega fleets (especially over long periods). This is a good way to partially balance the power between large and "small" empires, although a large empire would have the advantage of being able to wage war on multiple fronts more easily and of temporarily assembling many fleets in an attempt to force a system.
 

Bane Wraith

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Starbases are an object that centralizes stellar mechanisms: economy, defense and etc. It is clear and simple.

If you add the separate fortresses or more, it does not add anything to the game and it is already the role of the defense platforms (of course, which would need some changes).
If the space fortresses are limited, it does not change the current problem. If there is no limitation, it may as well change nothing, because the fleets can always be disproportionately too powerful, or on the contrary freeze the game creating a "myriad" of fortresses in a system, or even consecutive systems, which in itself will not be very interesting and fun.

If you answer me that the starbases are too limited in number and etc. It just means that some adjustments have to be made.

...

Then another simpler approach would be that star systems with a colonized planet could have a "free" starbase (which does not count towards the starbase limit) in that system, or perhaps above a certain threshold, like having a planet colonized with a Planetary Capital or better.

Maybe it's just not a step in the right direction? A useless step or worse harmful. Instead of implementing such a wobbly system, it would be better to think about solving the problem at the source: the ability to bring together an infinite number of ships in one place without any penalty, thus making it possible to crush any defense or empire having a significantly smaller fleet. And, if necessary, to make improvements to starbases and defense platforms.

Actually, I wish that this game could have planetary based defense systems, as in Master of Orion 2. A planet should have no problem constructing some missile launchers, whether they're included automatically, orbital or take up a building slot. It would greatly empower the need and focus on orbital bombardment and orbital bombardment defense.

I agree with the majority of your rhetoric on how defense should work. Perhaps a compromise can be proposed. For example:
- Include a debuff on fleets when there are more ships in a singular system than ( X* your fleet power ) can handle, thus discouraging massive offensive death-balls. Non-complicated, and based on values already extant in the game.
- Eliminate defense platforms; Replace Gun Battery, Missile Battery and Hangar Bay starbase modules with a new module, that enables you to construct strategically placed defense platforms, and buff these platforms using techs and modules that normally affect defense platforms. This ties these new system defenses both to starbase size and balance of other modules, while still allowing the fun of planning your fortification and situating them around a single or multiple entry points. Edit: Or L-Gate, for that matter.
 
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drawar

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Reviewing the bombardment of planets and land battles is indeed an important thing and could also serve to help the little ones to better resist the larger empires. But before reviewing this, we must first review the spatial aspect, even if the two can be thinking together, which would be ideal.

I don't know if it would be really interesting to be able to build platforms freely in the stellar system.
In fact, I even wonder if space combat shouldn't be handled like in EU4. A star system being "the equivalent" of a province of EU4 (or CK2, with the planets equivalent of the holdings).

Since you don't control your fleets (let alone your ships), even minimally, Stellaris has always seemed a little strange to me in its space battles, especially when two fleets meet on the edge of a system too far from the starbase. ally. Impossible to tell his fleet to go to the Starbase for his support. After that, we are far from the Starbase of Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion, real potential monsters especially with supporting structures (well! The AI is also a little stupid to attack a completely improved starbase head-on (or even 2), while there are specialized long-range structural siege vessels). Without going so far as to control the ships, control the fleets to give certain orders in combat or movement, potentially jumping to another system, even if during this time, the ships could have penalties (the energy being monopolized by the preparation of the jump). But hey, I don't know if it could be really interesting and create some viable, interesting, fun strategies without really abuse.
 

Doo Waad

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Mar 20, 2020
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I promote that the starbases should be customizable. If they would be I wouldn't have issues like this (see picture). As far as I know the dev team's speed it will be possible 3 years later.
The galactic terrains are in the game since 2.0 (2018 FEB) and there is an issue like this (see attached picture) since that. And the user have to make suggestions to the dev team on a forum to improve this because they can't thought this out themselves since 2018 February. Then what are they doing? Oh I know they developed archeological sites which are the same as anomalies but a little larger scale (clap clap).
I may be out of temper because of it but to not minding these small details ruins the game and becames boring for me very fast. And there is a patch every few months to improve the game but they are only small improves. The core of the game still contains these bugs and unthoughtfulnesses ruining it. And if someone tells me it's not possible see EU4. Both are Paradox games and the difference is earth and sky. I compared them lately and EU4 became very interesting after about 2 years from start while Stellaris still have issues like this 4 years after it's start.
I was very excited when Stellaris started back then but it died out fast and long ago. I hope it will resurrect some day.
 

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WeeBigTerd101

First Lieutenant
Nov 16, 2020
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I don’t see the issue with star-bases

In the early to mid game star bases Can be an amazing defense even without defense platforms.

for example you can sink a couple thousand alloys in weak af corvettes or just build a couple bastion that will keep you safe for awhile. And you can supplement that with a small fleet or special building on it or the research that make it so you can’t go around the base

and if you want better star bases just get better research
 
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