Standard duchies and kingdoms borders bugfix discussion

[unmerged(14905)]

Because the trapezus empire was an empire just for the name, and for it the duchy title is enough.
Nikaea empire never existed, because was nothing but the roman empire with another capital city.

The area where now there is a claimable kingdom of Cuman havent any "real" historical option for a kingdom name, but the region is too large to not assign it to a claimable title. From this point of view, I think it is just a matter of "cosmetic": IMHO, kingdom of Cuman do not means nothing... why a christian ruler want call himself king of a pagan barbaric people tradition?
Khazaria was used during and some time after the fall of the khazar khaganate (happened just before the CK timeframe... 1016).

Just my opinion.

 

[Enravota]

Because the trapezus empire was an empire just for the name, and for it the duchy title is enough.
Nikaea empire never existed, because was nothing but the roman empire with another capital city.

The area where now there is a claimable kingdom of Cuman havent any "real" historical option for a kingdom name, but the region is too large to not assign it to a claimable title. From this point of view, I think it is just a matter of "cosmetic": IMHO, kingdom of Cuman do not means nothing... why a christian ruler want call himself king of a pagan barbaric people tradition?
Khazaria was used during and some time after the fall of the khazar khaganate (happened just before the CK timeframe... 1016).

Just my opinion.

khazaria was a paga state as well(jewish)what's the difference pagan or pagan. a christian ruler would rather use a romen therm (schytia or something???)

 

[unmerged(14905)]

khazaria was a paga state as well(jewish)what's the difference pagan or pagan. a christian ruler would rather use a romen therm (schytia or something???)

jewish were/are pagans?
the khazar khaganate was famous for his religious tolerance, with an high council composed by muslim, christain, jewish and pagan men, all together; his history lasted 2-300 centuries and ended right before the CK era; their history as a people lasted 800 years; they are probably the founders of the mighty Kiev; that was the first example of a peaceful multi-ethnical society.

A christian ruler claiming a land name it with its roman therm?
King of Britannia?
King of Hibernia?
King of Pannonia?

 

[Enravota]

jewish were/are pagans?
the khazar khaganate was famous for his religious tolerance, with an high council composed by muslim, christain, jewish and pagan men, all together; his history lasted 2-300 centuries and ended right before the CK era; their history as a people lasted 800 years; they are probably the founders of the mighty Kiev; that was the first example of a peaceful multi-ethnical society.

if you ask the middle age church the jews are either heretics or pagans or worse (they killed christ and refused redemption), to a christian ruler khazaria is no better than any muslim or pagan ruler (most arabs were more tolerant than some christians but this is not the topic of curent discusion, is it?).

A christian ruler claiming a land name it with its roman therm? King of Britannia? King of Hibernia? King of Pannonia?

kingdom of great britan
kingdom of hyspania(almost in ck time span)
kingdom of panonia- do you think pagan mojars would give a damn what the roman christians called that land)
troy (this was the excuse of the latin 4th cruseda for taking constantinople.)

i agree that there should be a claimable, but i'm not sure that khazaria is the best choice.
as most of the modern states has unroman names that is because of their pagan origins of state. later rulers sought to legitimize their power, and whaat can legitimize your power more than the mythical roman empire. every christian ruler wished to be accepted by either hre or byzantium

btw another crazy idea why not Colchos. if the latin emperors could claim constantinople using the myth of troy, why not the crusading ck player claim himself a kingdom from the myth of the golden fleece (i know it's stupid, but anyway why not? )

EDIT: khazaria coa looks good in pagan or muslim cyrcle

 

[unmerged(12680)]

Hey, thanks for the Khazar CoA, another kingdom for Crusading Mother Russia.

Anyhoo, still banging the drums for a Sarmatia/Khazar split...

 

[Solmyr]

I have no problem adding a claimable KHAZ tag, the question is just whether it should exist alongside CUMA or replace it completely. The question of historicity is not relevant here because most claimable kingdoms in non-Christian lands are fantasy anyway (just look at what can be claimed in Syria/Mesopotamia area).

 

[Solmyr]

A few adjustments for the Caucasus to go with the major overhaul planned in v4:

- change kingdom of Abkhazia, Kasogs, and Imeretia from CUMA to GEOR
- change kingdom of Ani, Dwin, and Vaspurakan from GEOR to BYZA (pity there's no Armenian kingdom tag)
- change kingdom of Derbent, Semender, and Albania from GEOR to PERS (better fit, alternately could be CUMA or KHAZ)
- change duchy of Derbent, Semender, and Albania from ARME to DERB (making it a claimable tag, as DERB is hardcoded for duchy tier but currently unclaimable)

 

[unmerged(12680)]

- change kingdom of Ani, Dwin, and Vaspurakan from GEOR to BYZA (pity there's no Armenian kingdom tag)

So you aren't going to start messing with the U### tags, then?

 

[Solmyr]

So you aren't going to start messing with the U### tags, then?

Probably not, since it would require us to add CoAs, change country.csv to the correct setting, and probably a bunch of other things.

I might add it as an optional add-on, once the main part of the bugfix is done.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

For my semi-historical-though-mostly-fictional mod with many new kingdoms added, I changed TURK-tag to a claimabe duchy of Roma. Original Turkmens could get some unused kingdom tag instead as TURK is one the two (DERB is other) unclaimable hardcoded duchy tags.

 

[Solmyr]

For a kingdom of Armenia, we could use one of the named but currently unclaimable tags. There are a bunch that seem to be not used in any scenario. Then at least there would be some sort of CoA already assigned to it (so it wouldn't show up blank or something), and people who want an authentic one can add an Armenian CoA themselves.

 

[unmerged(12680)]

Which tags are completely unused, except for the U### ones of course?

 

[Solmyr]

Lessee...

GPOL
LPOL
LOMB
MOSC
USEZ
POLV
BUKH
MDAA (this one has no CoA though)

Some others no doubt that I missed.

MOSC or POLV might serve as a substitute for kingdom of Armenia...

 

[SethEng]

I have no problem adding a claimable KHAZ tag, the question is just whether it should exist alongside CUMA or replace it completely. The question of historicity is not relevant here because most claimable kingdoms in non-Christian lands are fantasy anyway (just look at what can be claimed in Syria/Mesopotamia area).

Well, since Khazaria seems to have covered the region that the Kingdom of Cuman is located in, I'd have absolutely no problems with CUMA being replaced by KHAZ. Besides, Kingdom of Khazaria sounds better than Kingdom of Cuman IMO.

 

[unmerged(14905)]

I think MDAA is bugged (or not existing in the executable).

EDIT: anyway, if a king of KHAZ will be added and coas inserted, I suggest this..

...the one in the previous page has the images too small.

 

[Tunch Khan]

I think MDAA is bugged (or not existing in the executable).

EDIT: anyway, if a king of KHAZ will be added and coas inserted, I suggest this..

...the one in the previous page has the images too small.

but would it look good on the circular shield?

 

[unmerged(14905)]

but would it look good on the circular shield?

no, but KHAZ, if inserted, will not be a muslim/pagan kingdom at the scenario start, but just a christian claimable kingdom (like the ones in middle-east and cental asia, you will never see a "circular coa kingdom" of Transoxiana, Persia, Arabia or Mesopotamia).

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Cordoba should be claimable as a kingfom. Several reasons for this:

1. Its still close enough to the time period when the Caliphate of Cordoba was around and even if the Christians didn't like it, it was recognized as a ligitimate kingdom, or the equivalent thereof.

2. This then makes it possible for non-iberians who have a wish to crusade, but not in the holy lands for some ahistorical setup of a Chrisitan kingdom in the south. Ot perhaps it forms though inhertance or by revolting when someone owns enough.

3. Essentially none of the iberian chrisitan nations had any real claim there other than that they were expelling infidels. There were other kingdoms that existed in that area at the time of the moorish invasion. However those are very ancient and only portugal of the southern kingdoms was able to come back. Thus Castile, Leon, Aragon, etc have no inheriant right of kingship there and it shouldn't be reprented as such by making them kingdoms all the way to the southern coast of Iberia.

Essentially Caliphate of Cordoba is still recent and persigious enough that it would be recongized as a kingdom title.

Think about it this way...if i were say the King of England and happened to claim enough of what could consitute the Caliphate/Kingdom of Cordoba, you'd bet i would. It may be a muslim nation, but it was the center of learning that rivaled the greatest in europe and the middle east. Sure its full of infidels, but tha'ts a small matter...and now its ruled by a chrisitan anyways.

 

[Solmyr]

I agree, but there is no tag for a kingdom of Cordoba.

 

[unmerged(14905)]

Andalusia, instead of Cordoba...