Standard duchies and kingdoms borders bugfix discussion

[unmerged(2456)]

Could Bosnia be unclaimable kingdom? Then we would have a real kingdom in later scenarios, while not messing around with those already too small kingdoms there. Of course, if Bosnia needs a kingdom tag just because such existed in 1337 scenario, Cyprus needs too. Likely some other places too.

Just for the record, I oppose any kingdom that is not at least 6-10 provinces in size, so I oppose Navarra and Spanish Galicia too, at least with the historical setup. Also for the record, I base my opinions on my views of gameplay enhancement, not historicalty. Historicality is a nice bonus.

Small duchies are not so much of a problem as duchies tend to vary in size from 1 to 5 normally. Kingdoms tend to vary from 10 to 80, so there it hurts to have 2-3 prov kingdoms...

Well i'm not exactly for 1 province duchies either since a count there can instantly claim a duchy there.

As to kingdom size i don't know if 6 is a good small number. Certainly its close to the smallest i'd say should be recognized in game. I'd say if you go with 4 its okay if it contains atleast 2 duchies.

That is my personal opinion though.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

If you really want Kingdom of Bosnia tag then why not simply use LPOL or GPOL tags. These are kingdom tags that aren't used in any of the scenarios.

 

[Brownbeard]

and BOSN tag is somewhat problematic in the later scenarios, although it is set up as a kingdom in the scenario, it is still hardcoded to be a duchy. so, emperor of byzantium, or king of hungary can vassalize king of bosnia, and king of bosnia can vassalize dukes. i bet that the king of bosnia could become a vassal of a king and become the liege of king of sicily in 1187. scenario as well...

almost forgot: there is no count in ragusa, there's a republic, and republics don't claim titles, so, a duke of hum could only be if someone conqueres the republic. it is not claimable at start. so, republic of ragusa and duchy of hum would exclude one another.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

and BOSN tag is somewhat problematic in the later scenarios, although it is set up as a kingdom in the scenario, it is still hardcoded to be a duchy. so, emperor of byzantium, or king of hungary can vassalize king of bosnia, and king of bosnia can vassalize dukes. i bet that the king of bosnia could become a vassal of a king and become the liege of king of sicily in 1187. scenario as well...

This same problem is with several other tags, like "kingdom" of Cyprus in 1337 scenario (which uses Cyprus duchy tag). Replacing these "fake" kingdoms with real kingdom tags would be a good undertaking if there are enough free kingdom tags, but it still doesn't mean that we need more creatable two or three province kingdoms around.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

This same problem is with several other tags, like "kingdom" of Cyprus in 1337 scenario (which uses Cyprus duchy tag). Replacing these "fake" kingdoms with real kingdom tags would be a good undertaking if there are enough free kingdom tags, but it still doesn't mean that we need more creatable two or three province kingdoms around.

Exactly...and i'm still for a Kingdom of Andalusiia or Al-Andalus.

 

[unmerged(31410)]

I think the basic point here is: either smaller claimable kingdoms (and since they're CLAIMABLE, then by definition they were NOT sovereign kingdoms in 1066, instead they had a chance to be so in the right historical circumstances - so i don't get the arguments like "it was not a kingdom at the time") are added wherever there's a historical reason for doing so, or they are not. But this has to be done on a consistent basis, not because somebody thinks that "his duchy was more important than another", without any historical foundation. It's unhistorical to put some of them because there's a low risk for title accumulation and ignore the others because it would make certain kingdoms (even marginally) more powerful.
Note: If there are enough historical arguments for Bosnia becoming a claimable kingdom, then there are way more than enough arguments for Carantania also, since Kingdom of Bosnia in 1066 is much more "what if". In 1066 Carantania was an established grand duchy, with more than 400 years of history (250 of that as a sovereign kingdom), containing the duchies of Krain, Karnten and Steiermark (plus Aquileia), while Bosnia was still to be.
I also don't get the argument "Don't give him the chance for that title, king of Germany is already too powerful". That's like making a WW2 strategy game and saying "Don't give the Luftwaffe to Germany since it's already too powerful". That's obviously unacceptable, first (and most important) because it ruins the historical accuracy and second because the change isn’t so great to justify the first point .

 

[Tunch Khan]

The Sheriff of Mecca (Lord of Mecca and Medina) has submitted to Alparslan after the fall of Armenia to Seljuks in 1064. Given the game starts at 26 December 1066, practically 1067, i guess we can reconsider the status of Arabia and southern Caucasia. There are reacords that by early 1067, the friday prayers in Mecca and Medina started with the "hutbe" on the honor of Great Sultan Alparslan and the Caliph of Bagdad.
Apart from that, i guess Basra belongs more to Mesopotamian geography rather than a distant Hedjaz.
And as a final note, i like the newest bugfix version. Much better than vanilla. Thanks to Solmyr and everyone here.

I just bumped myself. hope it's ok. I felt lonely up there.

 

[tombom]

When paradox adds grand duchies and allows more than one tier country claimable per province, you can (possibly) get it.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

@CeljskiGrof: I would not oppose Carantania, if it fulfills these conditions:

1) It's claimable area is at least six provinces
2) No one can create it with their starting lands
3) King of Germany will not have it as starting title

King of Germany is already a triple king, he doesn't need a fourth title at setup or being able to create it with his starting lands. If he creates it later, it is not an issue as that means he has to make an effort to get it.

If a duke can create it with his starting lands, then more often than not, we will see Carantania (or any other what-if kingdom) pop up into existance. This is silly in case of what-if kingdoms as they didn't historically exist in the period. They should be unlikely to become into existance.

 

[Solmyr]

Well, the philosophy on kingdoms within historically Christian lands is IMO that they must have either historically existed in the CK period or otherwise were considered as part of someone's titles. Even kingdoms like Galicia fulfill this, as Galicia existed in 1066, and was created as a separate kingdom at least once in the 12th century. Carantania, AFAIK, was never called a kingdom nor was part of anyone's title.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Well, as this is 1066 bugfix mod, should odd kingdoms existing in later scenarios be claimable or not? Meaning, should we have claimable kingdoms of Bosnia and Cyprus, as they appear in later scenarios or not?

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Well, the philosophy on kingdoms within historically Christian lands is IMO that they must have either historically existed in the CK period or otherwise were considered as part of someone's titles. Even kingdoms like Galicia fulfill this, as Galicia existed in 1066, and was created as a separate kingdom at least once in the 12th century. Carantania, AFAIK, was never called a kingdom nor was part of anyone's title.

And outside Christian lands (or those held recently in Christian hands)?

 

[Solmyr]

Well, as this is 1066 bugfix mod, should odd kingdoms existing in later scenarios be claimable or not? Meaning, should we have claimable kingdoms of Bosnia and Cyprus, as they appear in later scenarios or not?

The 1066 scenario is the grand campaign, so it theoretically covers the entire game period, so we could, depending on the kingdom. I'm not so sure about Cyprus though, as it was a fairly artificial construct, with current tiers and tags it makes more sense for it to be in BYZA. For Bosnia, if we get a tag I could see making it claimable.

 

[Solmyr]

And outside Christian lands (or those held recently in Christian hands)?

Those are more in the realm of fantasy I guess.

 

[unmerged(14905)]

Maybe the Cyprus provinces have to be prerequisites for a crusader kingdom (JERU?), and not for the byzantine core. Here a pic of the setup I use in the area...

JERU in orange
SYRI in grey
ARAB in brown
MESO in green
Jordan (free tag) in blue

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Maybe the Cyprus provinces have to be prerequisites for a crusader kingdom (JERU?), and not for the byzantine core. Here a pic of the setup I use in the area...

Making Cyprus part of the claimable area of Jerusalem would be good, as then later kings of Cyprus could be kings of Jerusalem instead, as afaik they were the descendants of KoJ and their capital would stay in Cyprus, unless they took back richer lands in Jerusalem area.

JERU in orange
SYRI in grey
ARAB in brown
MESO in green
Jordan (free tag) in blue

Why you just didn't rename ALEP to Syria and SYRI to Jordan? And then move the areas around a bit?

 

[unmerged(14905)]

Why you just didn't rename ALEP to Syria and SYRI to Jordan? And then move the areas around a bit?

Ye, you are right.
In fact, ALEP isnt on my claim map anymore.

Move areas around? Well, there is some rework in the kingdom province configuration (Antiokeia and Alexandretta and Aleppo historically to Syria and not JERU or ALEP, Basra and south iraqi lands to mesopotamia, qarmathi territories to ARAB, JERU smaller and SYRI much larger...)

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Move areas around? Well, there is some rework in the kingdom province configuration (Antiokeia and Alexandretta and Aleppo historically to Syria and not JERU or ALEP, Basra and south iraqi lands to mesopotamia, qarmathi territories to ARAB, JERU smaller and SYRI much larger...)

Well, I meant with moving areas around the reworking in claimable areas you had done. I am a bit difficult to follow at times.

Well, anyways, my main was that you could use ALEP tag for the additional kingdom tag you obviously need for Jordan.

 

[Solmyr]

Putting Cyprus in JERU sounds good.

 

[unmerged(33233)]

Guys, are you all history students or just don't have anything to do in life except collecting informations for CK, and debating about correctness of the same...?