Standard duchies and kingdoms borders bugfix discussion

[unmerged(27913)]

Kingdom of Bosnia was never actually a kingdom anyway. Kotromanic's claimed the title: King of Rascia, Bosnia, Dalmatia, Croatia..etc. but they were never officially recgonized not so long before Ottoman Empire conquered them in 1463 which means Bosnia officially became kingdom recognized by Pope(which one needed to aquire to consider himself to be a legit King ) long after the CK timeframe and it lasted less than a decade if 5 years at best.

Also if you go on creating Kingdom of Carantania then you also must create Kingdom of Lotharinghia as well and we know that these kingdom titles were long abolished before 1066.

Also I think if you create another spanish kingdom(which I agree with) than I think it should be Granada since this was the title used by Spanish monarchs, not to mention Andalusia is more like region description while Granada is IMO real historical title.

And finally I think the best tag to use for creating Duchy of Roma would be Istria tag. Since there was no such thing as "Duchy of Istria"(only county) Istria county should go to Krain/Carniola Duchy and the ISTR tag should be used for Roma.

 

[Mohe]

It's known as simply Galicia if you use the world_names file from the bugfix.

Ahh stop reading my mind. Sorry I didn't even look

 

[unmerged(12680)]

A question: Currently we have the Kingdom of Basra as the claimable crusader state in southern Mesopotamia and eastern Arabia, but does "Kingdom of Basra" really sound that good? Was Basra even an important city at the time?
So, which alternative could we use? King of Sumeria? Or perhaps merge it with the Kng. of Meso. and use the tag for something else (like an Armenian Kingdom...)?

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Well, Basra is a minikingdom and it would well and good to merge it with Mesopotamia.

 

[Solmyr]

If it is renamed it could be something like Chaldea. I'm in favor of merging it into Mesopotamia though, and using the Basra tag for Armenia.

Armenia should have Ani, Dwin, Vaspurakan, Karin, Mesopotamia, and Taron. Maybe Suenik too.

 

[unmerged(14905)]

Basra --> Iraq (maybe with some other core provinces).

Or Just removing Basra as claimable kingdom and giving those provinces as king prerequisites to ARAB (Arabia), and to ARAB also ar'ar, al-habbariya, al-nadjaf, al-nasiriya. This way, all the CK not-TI lands of the arab peninsula will be needed to create a kingdom of Arabia.

EDIT... what about renaming the TI as Hic Sunt Leones?...

 

[Tunch Khan]

The Sheriff of Mecca (Lord of Mecca and Medina) has submitted to Alparslan after the fall of Armenia to Seljuks in 1064. Given the game starts at 26 December 1066, practically 1067, i guess we can reconsider the status of Arabia and southern Caucasia. There are reacords that by early 1067, the friday prayers in Mecca and Medina started with the "hutbe" on the honor of Great Sultan Alparslan and the Caliph of Bagdad.
Apart from that, i guess Basra belongs more to Mesopotamian geography rather than a distant Hedjaz.
And as a final note, i like the newest bugfix version. Much better than vanilla. Thanks to Solmyr and everyone here.

 

[unmerged(31410)]

Regarding Lotharingia, I agree that some arguments could be found for its implementation, but there's a fundamental difference (to remain on the same example) between Carantania and Lotharingia: Carantania was spontaneously established as an institutional entity by the slavic communities in the area of the eastern Alps and existed as an independent kingdom between approximately 630 and 890 (independence ended by becoming a vasal to the franks), from then on as a vasal kingdom and finally as a grand duchy till 1180. So in 1066 it did exist as a "potential kingdom" (in 1066 was a grand duchy), although it lost its independence approximately 150 years earlier.
Lotharingia, on the other hand, was an artificial entity established for the sole purpose of dividing Charlemagne's (or to be more precise, Charlemagne son Louis the Pious's) possessions between his heirs. It was basically "created from nothing" by the Verdun treaty in 843, although it received the official kingdom status only circa 855, when Lothair I (son of Louis the Pious, brother of Louis the German, halfbrother of Charles the Bald) was succeded by his son Lothair, king of Lotharingia (AKA Lothair II). It ceased to exist already in 870 (after Lothair II's death) with the treaty of Mersen. So, in this case, we're speaking of an "artificially" created kingdom, which lasted 15 years and was totally dissolved (its lands were divided between Louis the German's and Charles the Bald's kingdoms) - no "degradation" to duchy or grand duchy, or something like that (although in later periods of history the region was sporadically an institutional entity).
Finally, I also agree that, from a historical standpoint, the Duchy of Istria should be removed and the county of Istria should go to the duchy of Krain.

 

[Brownbeard]

istria was already added to krain in the bugfix

should king of germany be king of karantanija, because, i think the von zaringen can claim the title at start and break off slovenia and northeast italy from HRE

 

[unmerged(21937)]

should king of germany be king of karantanija, because, i think the von zaringen can claim the title at start and break off slovenia and northeast italy from HRE

Like king of Germany really needs even more king titles...

 

[tombom]

It's fun for splitting up your kingdom, but otherwise it just gives you more prestige for no particular reason. I personally think that you shouldn't add extra claimable things as it creates arguments.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

You said it yourself...Carantania was a duchy and then it was divided into smaller duchies...what actually happens in game. And also as it may sound strange but I agree with Byakhiam.

 

[Brownbeard]

even with karantanija it's less kingdoms than in spain

but karantanija is not important...

KINGDOM OF BOSNIA and DUCHY OF HUM are!

perhaps i should found a headquarter for preserving the dignity of bosnias' kingdomness and duchyness of hum

 

[Solmyr]

Is duchy of Hum really needed when there is a duchy of Bosnia?

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Is duchy of Hum really needed when there is a duchy of Bosnia?

Why not rename duchy of Bosnia to duchy of Hum?

The balkanese kingdoms are already very small kingdoms as they stand (8 provs each or so) and they really don't need to be broken down to even smaller units in claimable area... This in simply gameplay point of view. (I dislike original Navarra too for that reason )

 

[Brownbeard]

AFAIK there's a shitload of small duchies in the CK world already. why? because they were historic. hum was a historic title, and it was a rather large duchy as duchies went, much larger than some grand duchies.

kingdom of bosnia should be rama, hum and ragusa. this is the only good solution for this, and the only way to simulate the kingdoms for all scenarios.

duchy of bosnia should be rama and hum. the core of bosnian state, and duchy of hum should hold the province of ragusa. it may sound weird, but it's paradox peoples' fault for naming most westernbalcanic provinces wrong. if there is absolutely NO WAY for a free tag being attached to hum then the duchy of bosnia and kingdom of bosnia might be identical tags, both a three province title, but a kingdom tag should be given to bosnia, since the BOSN tag is hardcoded to duchy tier

i there can be a kingdom of spanish galicia or navarra, there can be a bosnia too.

and bosnia has more historic weight than longforgotten karantanija or fictional andalusia.

 

[Solmyr]

We can rename BOSN to Hum if it fits better for a duchy in the area. For a kingdom of Bosnia we'll either have to wait for a Paradox tag or commandeer one of the unused hardcoded kingdom tags.

I'm not a fan of one-province duchies so preferably there should be as few of those as possible.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Could Bosnia be unclaimable kingdom? Then we would have a real kingdom in later scenarios, while not messing around with those already too small kingdoms there. Of course, if Bosnia needs a kingdom tag just because such existed in 1337 scenario, Cyprus needs too. Likely some other places too.

Just for the record, I oppose any kingdom that is not at least 6-10 provinces in size, so I oppose Navarra and Spanish Galicia too, at least with the historical setup. Also for the record, I base my opinions on my views of gameplay enhancement, not historicalty. Historicality is a nice bonus.

Small duchies are not so much of a problem as duchies tend to vary in size from 1 to 5 normally. Kingdoms tend to vary from 10 to 80, so there it hurts to have 2-3 prov kingdoms...

 

[Solmyr]

Oh that reminds me, we can't rename BOSN since it's used in the 1337 scenario.

 

[tombom]

And the 1187 scenario.