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The Kingmaker

AlexanderPrimus
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But they didn't do that. They went with a 15-year-old from the dynasty that preceded Harold, and they didn't defend him very enthusiastically.

Re: Leofric's grandsons, Edwin and Morcar Aelfgarson, they supported Harold for a couple of simple reasons: A) He had forged a marriage alliance with them by marrying their sister Edith for that very reason, and B) he had supported Morcar in Northumbria over Tostig, demonstrating his loyalty to them.

As for Harold's post-Hastings support... really, the loss at Hastings put England in dire straits. With Harold and his brothers all dead, along with their most important thegns, the primary advocates of the Godwine faction were all wiped out. So Harold's sons didn't really have anyone left to advocate for them. Only the eldest son, Godwine Haroldson, (who was around 20 years old) had yet received any lands to speak of; Harold appears to have been priming his eldest to inherit the Earldom of Wessex, and had already given him some rich lands, specifically around Exeter, IIRC. That being said, they did try to take back England. They had the support of King Diarmait of Leinster, and launched an invasion from Ireland in ~1068 and 1069, temporarily taking Exeter and making several successful raids. They continued to make petty raids but after Diarmait and his son died in the early 1070s vying for the High Kingship of Ireland, Godwine and his brothers lost their patronage. They continued making petty raids but died in obscurity.

So who is left? All the Godwinson brothers are dead except for Wulfnoth (a hostage in Normandy). The Haroldson brothers who were of age had fled to Ireland to get help from their allies. Edith of Mercia gave birth to Harold Haroldson after her husband's death, and was forced to flee to protect the baby, with the aid of her brothers. The flower of English leadership was dead on the battlefield, leaving the two Archbishops, as well as the three surviving earls, Edwin, Morcar and Waltheof as the last major English leadership. Archbishop Stigand was on shaky ground because the Pope refused to recognize him, and Archbishop Ealdred was old and infirm. Edwin and Morcar were barely older than the Haroldsons, maybe in their early twenties. They were both new to their earldoms and appear to have been a little bit inept. That may be unfair to say; however, they had recently lost a major battle to the Norse at Fulford before Stamford Bridge, with many of their soldiers and supporters killed. So no great northern army could come down to save the day. Waltheof was an inexperienced kid who had only just received his tiny earldom a year or two before, so there was nothing really he could do.

So what did the last remaining leaders do? They elected the last viable candidate available: Edgar Aetheling. He was the last of the old blood of Alfred, and though lacking the warrior cred of a King Harold, he was all they had left. Chances are, if Edward the Confessor had died a decade later, Edgar would have succeeded rather seamlessly. One of the big reasons why the Witan elected Harold was the threat of multiple foreign invasions. The last inexperienced kid who was elected king during a period of foreign threats was Aethelred the Unready, and no one wanted a repeat performance of his disastrous reign. So they had chosen Harold, the best fighter, and the most powerful noble. But as things were, after Hastings, there wasn't much that could be done to assert Edgar's kingship. Most of the army was dead, most of the nobles too. They held out until William backed them into a corner, and then yielded out of necessity to save their lives, biding their time for a better opportunity to throw off the Norman shackles.

Even then, things weren't hunky-dory for William. The Saxons were a perpetual thorn in his side throughout his reign. Edwin and Morcar led a revolt in 1068 (perhaps in conjunction with the Haroldsons' invasion?) but they were defeated. The Danes also invaded to help the Saxon rebels, but William paid them off. William pardoned the earls, but undertook the ghastly Harrying of the North to punish the English people. They rebelled again in 1071 with the aid of Hereward the Wake, but Edwin was killed and Morcar captured and imprisoned. Waltheof joined two of William's own Norman earls in revolting in 1075, but he was defeated and executed, and that was the end of the old Saxon leadership. Even Edgar Aetheling tried to take back England, attempting on numerous occasions to cajole Scotland's King Malcolm into aiding him. But Edgar had considerable bad luck throughout his life, and ultimately became a pawn of William's sons.

But suppose William had waited, and not invaded England for another 5-10 years. The England he found then would have been very different. The Haroldsons would have matured to the point where they could receive more lands from their father, and would be powerful nobles in their own right. Godwine as Earl of Wessex would be poised to strike for the throne. Edwin, Morcar and Waltheof would have had time to mature and consolidate their holdings. Harold's brothers would have had children of their own who could succeed them as well. Even Edgar Aetheling would have been better equipped to mount a defense, and may have found supporters of his own, provided nobody bumped him off. (If he was allowed to live, I imagine Harold would have neutralized his threat by marrying him off to one of his daughters and thus bringing him into the Godwine family firm.)

William got very lucky at Hastings: by cutting off England's "head," namely Harold, his brothers, and their powerful thegns, he eliminated virtually everyone capable of mounting a substantial resistance against him, leaving a kingdom led by old men and teenaged boys.

That's my tuppence on that.
 
Last edited:

Siward

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Then there's the Knight question. Conventional wisdom is that Norman Knights were virtually unbeatable on the field, and historically only William would have had access to them. If the devs agree with the CW, and restrict knights to feudal societies, Anglo-Saxon England doesn't really have much of a chance.

Just to pick up on this point, the idea that the Knights, at least in the 11th century were unbeatable and that the 'outdated' Anglo-Saxon style of fighting had no chance isn't really all that accurate and always struck me as more of a hold over from the victorians.

Hastings was as has been said a close run thing, and really could have gone either way had various things like sections of the army getting overly excited and chasing the retreating Normans not occured.

There is a similar situation in 1081, involving a confrontation between Norman Knights and Anglo-Saxons (& Danes and others). At the Battle of Dyrrachium, the Varangian Guard were on foot, and in advance of the main Byzantine army, accompanied by some archers.

In the initial attack the Normans charged the very end of the Guard's line, but the Varangian's held their ground and the Norman attack, involving both infantry and cavalry, collapsed, resulting in a rather chaotic situation as they fled back to their ships. Where it all goes wrong of course is when the Varangian's, seeing their enemy running away, chased after them and advanced even further ahead of the main army, only to have the Norman's rally (by Robert Guiscard's wife apparently) and come back resulting in a rather inglorious end for the exhausted and unsupported Varangians, the final survivors of which eventually flee into a church, which the Normans then happily burn down.

Now Knights certainly have the potential to be devastating when they get the 'perfect' situation, but a lot of the time they never did (in the Levant especially). So I wouldn't be so quick to rule out the Anglo-Saxons. A victory at Stamford Bridge and Hastings would give them some breathing room, and who knows what would have happened had they had time to adapt to the new style of warfare in France.

My other point I wanted to raise was how Edgar the Aetheling will be treated in the game. I imagine he will start off with a claim to the throne, but how realistic do you think his chances of getting it back are since he will essentially be a landless courtier with a fancy lineage. If there was a system dedicated to simulating the Witan then it would obviously be fairly possible he would, but there isn't, so....what are his chances?

On a related note, I also wonder AlexanderPrimus if you've read some of the relatively more recent stuff by Barlow and Mason which is a lot kinder to Harold specifically and sees him more as a loyal servant of King Edward than the conspiring noble/power behind the throne that his father was. Infact I believe Emma Mason(not sure? It's been a long time since I read it) in the 'House of Godwin' actually makes a suggestion that Harold's little jaunt around Europe in the 1050's collecting relics etc was in some way tied to trying to retrieve Edward the Exile/Edgar on behalf of Edward the Confessor in search for an heir. It's an interesting thought at least.
 
Last edited:

unmerged(193360)

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Regardless of how the battles go, I'm worried that the CK2 war for the English throne in 1066 will usually end with both the Normans and the Norwegians siegeing and occupying a couple of English provinces each then settling for a White Peace.
 

Siward

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To be honest, depending on how it is setup I could easily see either a Norwegian north and Saxon south divide or a total Norwegian conquest being the most common occurence if the player is not involved in the struggle. It depends how the claims are setup and whether taking over a kingdom will be as easy as it was in CK1 (just occupy the King's personal demense). Assuming Harold starts in the south, then you would think the AI would go after William first since I believe both Harald and William will be in England at the start to ensure a confrontation? In such a situation, even if Harold beats William he then has to go north and face Harald Hardrada, who lets face it, will probably quite deservedly have a fairly hefty martial score, much like Bohemond did in CK1, and won't be sat around waiting for hostages like at the real Stamford Bridge.

Though yes the real question is, as you say, how eager the AI is to accept a white peace.
 
Last edited:

TheArchMede

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It depends how the wars work.

My lord, on his deathbed King Edward of England has nominated Harold as his successor. The King of Norway claims he was not in his right mind and the War of the English Succession has started.

My lord, on his deathbed King Edward of England has nominated Harold as his successor. The Duke of Normandy has bribed the Pope to say he was not in his right mind and the War of the English Succession has started.

If the wars are treated as succession wars, then there should be a White Peace on the death of Harald due to lack of any wargoals once Harald is dead, and William should succeed on the death of Harold.

The battles in game probably won't be as decisive, if the invasions even happen, and so the likely result is eventual WP leaving Harold in control.
 

The Kingmaker

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On a related note, I also wonder AlexanderPrimus if you've read some of the relatively more recent stuff by Barlow and Mason which is a lot kinder to Harold specifically and sees him more as a loyal servant of King Edward than the conspiring noble/power behind the throne that his father was. Infact I believe Emma Mason(not sure? It's been a long time since I read it) in the 'House of Godwin' actually makes a suggestion that Harold's little jaunt around Europe in the 1050's collecting relics etc was in some way tied to trying to retrieve Edward the Exile/Edgar on behalf of Edward the Confessor in search for an heir. It's an interesting thought at least.

I have indeed. I might also recommend Ian Walker's biography of Harold, which runs in that same vein of recent scholarship. Re: Harold traveling in the 1050s, there is a postulation that he was sent as a royal envoy to the Holy Roman Emperor to see about finding Edward the Exile and his family. Harold didn't go all the way to Hungary of course, although that's where the HRE's folks ultimately found Edward, Edgar and the rest of their family.

I've also seen the suggestion that Harold may have first seriously contemplated becoming King upon seeing how aggressive and dangerous Duke William was in 1064, which is kind of an ironic thought. William forcing Harold to swear an oath under duress may have been the very thing that pushed Harold to become King and try to defend his country against William. :p Of course, that's only conjecture.

Also, good points re: the knights. I might add that the Saxon housecarls with their big two-handed axes were actually quite good at killing the knights' horses.
 

Rabid Bogling

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Edwin and Morcar were barely older than the Haroldsons, maybe in their early twenties. They were both new to their earldoms and appear to have been a little bit inept. That may be unfair to say; however, they had recently lost a major battle to the Norse at Fulford before Stamford Bridge, with many of their soldiers and supporters killed. So no great northern army could come down to save the day.
It is a tad unfair, aye. As you've said yourself these were inexperienced men - magistrates, not marshals, in their early thirties at the latest - with barely a fleck of their grandfather's power and a pretty tenuous hold on Northumbria. Together they were pitted against one of the greatest warrior-kings of his age with an army that was no less multinational than William's. Tostig's English, Norse-Gaels, Scots, and perhaps even Flemings were amongst Harald's host, and it dwarfed their own by a pretty large margin. Despite that they handled themselves well, taking position at a bottleneck and attempting to seize the initiative before the Norwegians had fully arrived. Sure, it went tits up eventually, but all things considered they deserve credit rather than scorn. Besides which, the "northern army" was never a exactly match for Harold's southern one. Unless I'm mistaken, this was a gabble of fyrds raised almost exclusively from Edwin and Morcar's Mercian holdings, and in a hurry at that. I keep meaning to get my hands on "The Forgotten Battle of 1066: Fulford" by Charles Jones, which deals with that meeting and other early events of the war in some depth. And I keep forgetting. Cheers for the reminder, chaps!
 

Nick B II

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Just to pick up on this point, the idea that the Knights, at least in the 11th century were unbeatable and that the 'outdated' Anglo-Saxon style of fighting had no chance isn't really all that accurate and always struck me as more of a hold over from the victorians.
Two points.

As far as this thread is concerned, the question isn't whether knights were unbeatable IRL. It's whether a) the devs think this and b) they let the Anglo-Saxons get any. Because in terms of deciding who will win the English conflict of 1066 those questions are pretty decisive, and unfortunately they are also unlikely to be answered before the game ships.

Secondly, that argument isn't gonna convince the devs if they've decided knights are unbeatable on the battlefield. Multiple battles where the Heavy Infantry win, go berserk and pursue the knights, only to be destroyed completely when the knights turn around is just gonna convince the devs to give Heavy Inf a death wish. You'll have to find a battle where the Heavy Inf actually won.

Probably more then one. It's one thing for a historian who needs a provocative theory so he can write an interesting essay say "If only they had done x, y, and z they'd have beaten won," it's another when the people who actually had skin in the game at the actual battles consistently fail to do x, y, and z. It really doesn't help that no military expert of 1066 who had access to knights decided they were a waste of resources and he'd be better off with a bunch of Axemen, whereas by game-end just about every playable realm that didn't have knights in 1066 had spent the large sums of money acquiring them.

Nick
 

The Kingmaker

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It is a tad unfair, aye.

Well, I wasn't basing that assertion exclusively on Fulford, but yes, I definitely agree with you. Since political and military competence can take years to learn, I imagine that Edwin and Morcar might have become quite able in a world where William lost at Hastings. Despite their youth, their relatively tenuous connections in Yorkshire and the fact that their father Aelfgar had managed to fritter away a great deal of their family's influence, they had a lot of potential. Their sister's marriage to Harold made them the king's kin, with all the prestige and influence that would ultimately come from such a position.

In fact, in the event of a Hastings victory for the English, I foresee a possible political realignment. Whereas in King Edward's reign, the power was juggled between the factions of the three great earls (Godwine, Leofric, and Siward), by the time of Harold's natural death (in the 1080s perhaps?) I think the major political factions will be aligned with either Harold's sons by Edith Swanneck, perhaps supported by Harold's brothers, or with Harold's children by Edith #2, presuming she had would eventually have more than just Harold Jr., who would be supported by their uncles Edwin and Morcar. :)
 
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TheArchMede

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Secondly, that argument isn't gonna convince the devs if they've decided knights are unbeatable on the battlefield. Multiple battles where the Heavy Infantry win, go berserk and pursue the knights, only to be destroyed completely when the knights turn around is just gonna convince the devs to give Heavy Inf a death wish. You'll have to find a battle where the Heavy Inf actually won.

Probably more then one.

Bannockburn, the Spurs, Crecy, Poitiers etc.

Its not a case of whether heavy infantry can ever beat knights, knights never beat heavy infantry that keep their discipline, its more that heavy infantry is rare for much of the period because the trained fighters are all knights. When it re-emerges, the knights get off their horses to fight.

Cavalry need support to break heavy infantry. Either missile troops to break up the infantry formation, or their own infantry to pin it so they can use their mobility to get to the flank and rear. When the knights decided to leave their support troops behind because they thought they could win on their own, they got spectacularly stuffed.
 

RedRooster81

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Bannockburn, the Spurs, Crecy, Poitiers etc.

Its not a case of whether heavy infantry can ever beat knights, knights never beat heavy infantry that keep their discipline, its more that heavy infantry is rare for much of the period because the trained fighters are all knights. When it re-emerges, the knights get off their horses to fight.

Cavalry need support to break heavy infantry. Either missile troops to break up the infantry formation, or their own infantry to pin it so they can use their mobility to get to the flank and rear. When the knights decided to leave their support troops behind because they thought they could win on their own, they got spectacularly stuffed.

I enjoyed reading your post. Terrain should be a big factor, too, that I hope to see, where light infantry should get a bonus in some terrain (and random weather conditions mayhaps?). Light infantry and other skirmishers should get a bonus in difficult conditions over heavy horse and even heavy foot, and there should be a place for developing foot tactics to defend your little duchy. I would also like to see the composition of your armies change with new technologies. The Russians developed mounted archers in response to the Mongols, for example, and so have arm races worked since man began to kill man.

EDIT: According to a recent screenshot (search for NZGamer and Crusader Kings 2), Harold Godwinson has 10,000 men in his army located in Northampton, Hardrada has 7k in York, and the Norman bastard has 6k in Kent. So it should be possible to win, but you take your pick of which to face first.

I did notice from the screenshots that Normandy is independent from France at scenario start, and from the E3 video, Philippe of France can declare war on William while the latter is occupied across the channel. Interesting.
 
Last edited:

Ivashanko

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I... honestly think the entire senerio should be at least partly scripted, so that more realistic outcomes happen, rather than a mess of different outcomes that seem likely given the AI's performance, etc.
 

Melichai

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If a realistic outcome is required, just start at the standard Jan 1st 1067 scenario for a Norman England.

The earlier 1066 scenario is optional, and intended I presume for people who wish to play one of the concerned parties (William, Harold or Hardrada) with the intention of writing or rewriting history so a result in line with the players ambitions will be achieved - scripts would be harmful to the experience of those players.
 

The Kingmaker

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If a realistic outcome is required, just start at the standard Jan 1st 1067 scenario for a Norman England.

The earlier 1066 scenario is optional, and intended I presume for people who wish to play one of the concerned parties (William, Harold or Hardrada) with the intention of writing or rewriting history so a result in line with the players ambitions will be achieved - scripts would be harmful to the experience of those players.

Indeed. My understanding is that they will have certain bookmarked dates like in EU3, which would be so-called "recommended" starts from amidst the long playable timeline. AFAIK, these include Sept. 1066 (pre-Hastings), Oct. 1066 (post-Hastings), 1187 and 1337. There may likely be others.
 

King of Men

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If the wars are treated as succession wars, then there should be a White Peace on the death of Harald due to lack of any wargoals once Harald is dead, and William should succeed on the death of Harold.

This does not seem obvious. Olaf was sole King in Norway after the death of his brother Magnus, and although the saga notes that he was unusually peaceful for a Norwegian King, that's partly because the complete slaughter of professional fighting men at Stamford had left him without much of an army. If, say, Harald dies but the Norwegian army is reasonably intact, I don't see why Olaf and Magnus shouldn't press their father's claim - with a rather lower Martial score and fewer loyal Dukes, to be sure, but they might win for all that. If Harald had a claim, then legally speaking his sons had just as good a claim, right? And anyway, there's no rule saying Harald has to die before either of the other two claimants. Maybe he fights Harold in single combat and wins, then marches south to face William.
 

TheArchMede

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This does not seem obvious. Olaf was sole King in Norway after the death of his brother Magnus, and although the saga notes that he was unusually peaceful for a Norwegian King, that's partly because the complete slaughter of professional fighting men at Stamford had left him without much of an army. If, say, Harald dies but the Norwegian army is reasonably intact, I don't see why Olaf and Magnus shouldn't press their father's claim - with a rather lower Martial score and fewer loyal Dukes, to be sure, but they might win for all that. If Harald had a claim, then legally speaking his sons had just as good a claim, right? And anyway, there's no rule saying Harald has to die before either of the other two claimants. Maybe he fights Harold in single combat and wins, then marches south to face William.

If they keep the claim (and I have the impression that claims will be less durable in CK2) they are still in a truce with Harold and if truces work like CK1 they can attack William after Harold dies, but they have a lifetime truce with Harold.

If Harald kills Harold, then anything could happen. Maybe there is a Hastings style battle at Barnet, or a Stamford Bridge at Southwark, or maybe it degenerates into a Stephen-Matilda or Cnut-Edmund style deadlock and they cut some sort of deal to share the spoils. We will have to read the AARs to find out.
 

The Kingmaker

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If the AI is smart, it'll sue for peace after a defeat on the magnitude of Stamford Bridge. But when is the AI ever smart? We'll have to see how it is in CK2.